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B-12 - The Hidden Story

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Cort, Jul 26, 2009.

  1. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Cristina,

    A balance is needed. Also a large enogh dose is needed that eventiully the bodies need is fully met and an equilibrium is reached. It appears possible to take so small a dose that equilibrium is never reached, at least not in a reasonable amount of time, and startup responses continue unabated indefinitely. Good luck. Some people have reported taking 25,000 mcg for a couple of days 5000 at a time and then being able to drop back to 1000mcg and have no startup response from that.
     
  2. Hysterical Woman

    Hysterical Woman Senior Member

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    Wildaisy

    Hi Wildaisy,

    Good to see you posting again!!

    I know I am going to sound like a broken record here, but I would encourage anyone who is about to start supplementing with minerals to have your tissue levels tested first. Otherwise you won't really know which ones you need. For myself, I just got back my EXAtest which shows me still low in magnesium (but I am close to "normal" now) even tho I have been supplementing for 11 months (it can take up to a year if you are really deficient)!

    In addition, my ratio of magnesium/calcium is still too low even tho I have not supplemented with calcium at all. No one denies the importance of having sufficient calcium in the body, but if you have too much, it blocks magnesium absorption and you can be out of balance. In general, the amounts of calcium, phosphorus, potassium, sodium, and lactose (milk sugar) in the body can each inhibit magnesium absorption.

    Take care,

    Maxine
     
  3. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Maxine,

    My disagreement with what you say is this. In an instantaneous snapshot of the situation before staerting to heal. Not a bad thing but misleading. A week after starting active b12s and methylfolate alone the person ends up in the ER with hypokalemia and healing comes to a crashing halt if it started in the first place. They start the potassium and a week after that the healing stops again for unknown reasons. If they get tested every month they may spend 3 months healing and 9 months waiting to find out what went wrong this time and spend several thousand dollaers to find out why. I have watched people go through a lot of start and stop healing for months and months. It's almost always the person trying to go duck hunting with a bb gun by picking off the feathers one by one until the duck can't fly any more.

    I would be inclined to say that the person should start a modest amount of minerals including potassium unless they accumulate potassium and get tested after a month. Then they will know where they are under the actual conditions and can make adjustments accordingly without playing red light green light. They will be farther down the road of healing that way.

    The mineral balance is very important. Get it tested. Out of whack can cause all sorts of problems.
     
  4. Hysterical Woman

    Hysterical Woman Senior Member

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    Hi Freddd,

    Thanks for responding. I believe I understand where you are coming from with your comments. I agree that is not feasible to test minerals on a monthly basis and stop/start supplementation according to those results. But I do believe that a snapshot of mineral levels in the tissues before beginning supplementation can be powerful at letting you know their status and don't understand why it would be misleading.

    Are you saying that it's not helpful because a week after starting active B12's and folate that those results are no longer accurate? That could be true, but can you tell that just because someone has hypokalemia? Low potassium in the blood is a different animal from low potassium in tissues. Potassium in tissues is about 30-40 times greater than serum and a huge factor in overall health. Do you mean that the body needs higher levels of potassium prior to starting B-12 to try to offset that problem?

    I can't pretend to completely understand how potassium stores are used in the body. Does B-12 pull those stores out of the tissues and put them in the blood? When the body needs potassium for an enzyme process does it use it up from the tissue or from the blood? Anybody out there know? I have a book on potassium on order and hope to learn more but the process is complicated.

    Freddd, please don't consider my post and questions any kind of criticism of the amazing job that you have done in digging down into the B-12 issue. You should be patting yourself on the back every day for what you have been able to achieve for yourself and how you have passed that information on to others. I am hoping that the mineral puzzle pieces might add to healing experience.

    Thanks for your work,

    Maxine
     
  5. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Maxine,

    I can't pretend to completely understand how potassium stores are used in the body. Does B-12 pull those stores out of the tissues and put them in the blood? When the body needs potassium for an enzyme process does it use it up from the tissue or from the blood?

    To my understanding, the only potassium available for processes is the serum potassium, all the rest being locked up literally in the structure of the cells and quite unavailable. The sudden maturation of large red blood cells that had been kept immature despite size by lack of mb12 and/or folate is said to be the principle reason for the sudden dramatic drop of potassium in serum.

    That could be true, but can you tell that just because someone has hypokalemia? Low potassium in the blood is a different animal from low potassium in tissues. Potassium in tissues is about 30-40 times greater than serum and a huge factor in overall health. Do you mean that the body needs higher levels of potassium prior to starting B-12 to try to offset that problem?

    Hypokalemia can develop into a serious medical emergency very quickly. I have experienced that. Minor very early symptoms are not easily noticable against the backround of CFS/FMS and general neurological problems. I had GI problems for decades with daily nausea "normal". So when my gall bladder started givining warnings I didn't notice. It wasn't anything different. The first symptom I noticed landed me in the ER. Hypokalemia can be like that. A well person might notice they had symptoms. A person with 200 symptoms doesn't notice minor changes in a few because that happens several times daily. The very first thing that gets their attention may be sudden onset of spasms so bad they can barely crawl to the phone or vitamins.

    I had an MCV of 99.8. I've had reports from people with MCV as low as 93 or so. I've seen the low end of potassium stated to be between 3.5 and 4.0 depending upon the country and lab. I start having unusual spasms at about 4.1 and my serum potassium had been running about 4.2. Three days after starting mb12 I got hit with the spasms. I managed to get some potaqssium into me and within 30 minutes the spasms stopped as suddenly as they started. This happened several more times, each time taking another critical cofactor such as adb12 or methylfolate. Each time within 3-4 days and oral potassium ended it in 30 minutes. It took a year of 6x99mg potassium to get my serum potassium up to 4.6 and staying there. Now I've had to drop back to 5x99mg to avoid a different kind of spasm on the high end. Too little calcium (balance?) can also cause a similar spasming.

    In watching these reports from people for 6 years I see a pattern. Thos with serum potassium levels below 4.5 or so may have these episodes upon starting mb12 and continuing for some months. For most, taking 1 or 2 99mg tablets daily prevednts a potential problem. Certain diuretics increase the problem which is why my doc monitors my serum potassium carefully. He doesn't want me dropping dead on his watch from something preventable.

    B-12 does not "pull" potassium out of tissues. The maturation of red blood cells utililizes serum potassium. The formation of cells utilizes potassium putting it into the new tissue.
     
  6. enough_is_enough

    enough_is_enough One day I will run and not get weary.

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    Thanks Fredd and Marcmc,

    I haven't told my story yet , but yes I have cfs because of mercury and mercury fumes,I did the no amalgam thing and chelation, just once though (made me to sick) sauna, detox, (many diffirent kinds) fiber therapy for years, I am taking 3 milk thistle's a day (one of the supplepents that is a big liver saver) the other sign that mercury is still in my system is I am extremely sulphur sensitive. Fredd if you say "b-right" is that the name of a company or active b12, sorry I am new to this web site and to lazy to go back reading, will do that a little each day.

    I must of read something wrong somewhere, thought hydroxocobalamin extreme from prohealth is the active form, I used cyanocobalamin for a few months now with no results at all.
    I am using only half a tablet now just before I go to bed...I must say I think it does make a difference, I am having a feeling a well being, a very rare occurrence for me, the melatonin is at work, not one antidepressant could create than feeling. It is so incredible....sigh!! I must relish the feeling while it last!! after 23 years with cfs I know that many treatments have a" Hawaii"i feeling in the beginning and in the end when you wake up it is back to" suffer city"!!
     
  7. bernettaelliott

    bernettaelliott

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    Hi, I am new to this forum so not sure where to post. I need help.I live in Orlando, Fl. and have really bad low B12 symptoms. I can not find anyone to help me. I have even been going to Shand' hospital since Oct. 09. every month. At least they told me I had low B12 and I started taking shots. I think I need a different kind of B12. Any advice where I can go or what to do. thanks so much Bernetta Elliott
     
  8. dmholmes

    dmholmes Senior Member

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    Rich's simplified plan or Fred's active B12 basics would be a good start. Followed up with any questions here or at the Wrong Diagnosis active B12 thread.

    Take care,
    David
     
  9. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    I must of read something wrong somewhere, thought hydroxocobalamin extreme from prohealth is the active form,

    It isn't. It is one of two inactive forms typically used. Just like cyanob12 it has to be converted to both active forms in the body to be fully effective, limited to about 10-30mcg/day at best. In lots of studies it has a lack of response rate of about 20-40% as does cyanob12. It doesn't have the cyanide group and converts somewhat more easily than cyanob12. Adenosylb12 and methylb12 are the only two active forms in the human body. Taking those directly causes substantially faster healing of 3 times as many symptoms as hydroxyb12.
     
  10. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Bernetta,

    On the first few pages of this topic you will find the active b12 protocol. They are divided into 3 segments of supplements. There are the absolute minimum to demonstrate effectiveness and avoid one dangerous possible startup effect - hypokalemia. There are the basics which is a selection of all the basic vitamins and minerals plus omega3 oils which collectrively can allow more healing to occur more rapidly and continuously for more people. And then there are the "critical" cofactors. These are additional substances that can be the keys to turning on the activity of the two types of active b12s and may be needed in any selection or combination for different people. Their lack can prevent more healing and recovery in some people. A few things are in two places. For example Jarrow B-Right (b-complex) is in the minimum, twice a day is in critical as it can make a huge difference for some people to have it twice a day. Zinc is in the basics, 50mg+ is in the critical. Good luck. Read and ask questions. Information and experience is the only thing we can offer here.
     
  11. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Implied Diffusion

    Hi Rich,

    In thinking about it, there are a lot separate things pointing at diffusion of active b12s directly into cells. Much of this diffusion is not explicitly talked about but just assumed to be occurring. Many of the studies were done years or decades before the studies showing decreased CSF/CNS cobalamin levels in those with CFS/FMS/Alzheimer's.

    1. cell culture studies with the various b12s added directly to media and culture.
    2. High dose mb12 (50mg or so) Japanese studies indicating "upregulated neurological healing" or maybe hitting a threshold point for diffusion into the cerebral spinal fluid.
    3. Studies of methylb12 showing "dose proportionate healing" effects when given at levels way beyond the very limited binding and conversion ranges.
    4. Effectiveness of methylb12 sublinguals (5 star brands) being felt within 5 minutes and very substantial at 15 minutes and increasing or maintaining for more than several hours as long as mb12 is maintained in mouth, then stopping increase or starting decline within minutes of removal from mouth. This is not the behavior of bound b12.
    5. Effectiveness of adlb12 sublinguals (5 star brand) being felt within 5 minutes and very substantial at 15 minutes and increasing or maintaining for more than several hours as long as adb12 is maintained in mouth, then stopping increase or starting decline within minutes of removal from mouth. This is not the behavior of bound b12.
    6. CNS threshold effect with adb12 at 30-51mg sublingual or 7.5-12.5mg injected after body has long ceased giving startup response. Becasue of preciseness of quantity with injections it can be shown to have no effect at 6mg and major effect at 7.5mg. This implies diffusion when gradiant becomes steep enough.
    7. CNS threshold effect with methylb12 at 30-50mg sublingual or 7.5-12.5mg injected after body has long ceased giving startup response. Because of preciseness of quantity with injections it can be shown to have no effect at 6mg and major effect at 7.5mg. This implies diffusion when gradiant becomes steep enough.
    Elsewhere we have been speaking of the diffusion hypothesis for some years. In reading the research and from experience of just about everybody here who has tried the active b12s it is obvious that they have the most effectiveness when doses are large enough to bypass the regular channels and get everywhere in the body almost at once with diffusion. Because so much is affected all at once there are a lot of startup reponses. I would never have thought that there would be any question about the possiblity of diffusion because of it's stunning effectiveness and incredible obviousness.

    For me, the question raised is on whether we are seeing upregulated CNS healing because of anything besides a steep diffusion gradiant bringing the methylb12/adb12 to cells otherwise not reached easily.
     
  12. imgeha

    imgeha Guest

    B vits and nails

    This is an odd question and certainly not my first concern, but I have noticed since starting this protocol that my nails are flaking and breaking, which I am taking to be a lack of something, possibly a co-factor that is getting used up more in the methylation process. Anybody got any ideas what it might be? I am taking the folate, adenosyl and methyl B12, zinc, Vit C, TMG, Vit E, magnesium, calcium, fish oil, COQ10 occasionally, B6, one B-Right a day, potassium, milk thistle - probably more stuff that I can't think of now, but I think that's the basics covered.

    I have also noticed that the half-moons at the bottom of my nails are reappearing - I think this is an indication of the amount of B12 in the system, so this is good!!

    Other than that, not really much to report. I am having lots of unmistakeable metal detox on the folate and B12 (don't want to get into an argument about what this is, please - I know what my symptoms are), which is unpleasant but necessary and is becoming less frequent now after 6 months on the protocol. I have just ordered some SAME to see what happens there. I tried D-Ribose and it gave me a noticeable energy boost, but made my candida worse, so I have stopped for now. The biggie I want to lose is the orthostatic tachycardia, but the more I read about methylation, choline and autonomic dysfunction makes me optimistic that this will eventually go with the methylation supplements. Fingers crossed!

    Nicola
     
  13. Athene

    Athene ihateticks.me

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    Dear imgeha,
    I have had flaking, brittle thin nails for years and I've always been convinced it was some kind of deficiency but I don't know what. If you find anything out, please share it!
    The palpitations are a detox symptom that I got a lot, until my doc told me to raise my B12 dosage. He said those detox symptoms come when your liver runs out of B12 before finishing the job off. I am now on a massive injected dose and the palpitations don't come any more, nor do the headaches, and the muscle weakness is much better.
    If you are using tablets, I wonder if you could benefit from more adenosyl B12? I think that is the form most important for the heart. Is that right, Freddd or Rich?
     
  14. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    Nails breaking--low cysteine

    Hi, Nicola.

    Fingernails and hair are composed of the protein alpha keratin. The normal strength and rigidity of hair and nails is due to cross-linking between the long-chained protein molecules. This cross linking occurs by the formation of disulfide bonds between cysteine residues in adjacent protein molecules to effectively form cystine.

    When the sulfur metabolism is operating normally, about half of a person's cysteine is made from methionine, because in most diets there is not enough cysteine to supply all of the body's needs. When there is a partial methylation cycle block, however, the entire sulfur metabolism is disrupted, because the methylation cycle lies at the beginning of the sulfur metabolism. One result is that sulfur metabolites tend to drain down the transsulfuration pathway and into the sulfoxidation pathway, and then be excreted. This causes deficiencies throughout the sulfur metabolism, including in cysteine. So then when the alpha keratin is being made for hair and nails formation, there isn't enough cysteine available. The result of this is that the usual formation of the protein and the crosslinking are disrupted, and the hair or nails are easily broken.

    It is also interesting to note that the formation of protein has a higher priority in the body than does the formation of glutathione. This is built into what are called the Michaelis constants for the binding of the amino acids, including cysteine, in the processes of forming proteins and glutathione, respectively. This means that if the hair or nails are falling apart, it is likely that glutathione is also very depleted.

    The way to restore cysteine, hair, nails, and glutathione, as well as lots of other things in CFS, is to lift the partial block in the methylation cycle, and that's what the treatments we are dealing with here are all about.

    So why does it get worse before it gets better when you do this treatment? Well, when you stimulate the methionine synthase enzyme by using B12 and folate, more of the homocysteine is converted to methionine, and less goes down the transsulfuration pathway to make cysteine and glutathione. So initially, you have less of these. However, over time the whole sulfur metabolism gets restored, and then the situation with the hair, nails, etc., improves. This can take considerable time, especially if a lot of toxins have accumulated during the time this partial block was in place and the detox system was dysfunctional, because detoxing requires a lot of sulfur.

    I hope this is helpful.

    Rich
     
  15. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    Hi, Athene.

    I would say that both the coenzyme forms are important for the heart, because both end up affecting the rate of ATP production by the mitochondria in the heart muscle cells, and ATP is what powers the heart muscle.

    Adenosyl B12 is actually located in the mitochondria, and it is necessary in the pathway that feeds some of the fuel into the Krebs cycle there.

    Methyl B12 is important for the methylation cycle, and unless that is operating properly, there will be a depletion of glutathione. Some glutathione also enters the mitochondria, and it is important for controlling oxidative stress there. If the oxidative stress rises, it will put a partial block into both the Krebs cycle and the respiratory chain in the mitochondria, and that will also lower the ATP production.

    So I would say that they are both important. Normally, the cells control how much of each is made, in order to meet the needs of the cell. In treatments in which large dosages of B12 forms are given, this system is likely overridden, and the cells probably get more B12 than they need, and export the excess back to the blood plasma, bound to haptocorrin, which is eventually picked up by the liver, some being stored and the rest send to the intestinal tract via the bile, where it has another opportunity to be absorbed into the blood again, bound to transcobalamin.

    Best regards,

    Rich
     
  16. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Nails and Hair

    I would like to address the nails and hair situation. I can't tell you the biochemistry of it as Rich has done. I can tell you what things affected my hair and nails. Before starting on mb12 but on a complete set of vitamins, minerals and various supplements, I had thin, easily tearing nails. They did not flake that I ever noticed. The items that increased the thickness and toughness of my nails noticably were methylb12, then again 9 months later adb12, then 6 months later SAM-e and then another 12 months later l-carnitine fumarate. My hair also became less brittle and dandruff went away 100%.
     
  17. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Athene,

    I agree with Rich that both forms of active B12s are important for the heart. What ended up stopping decades of palpitations in the end was, after everything else was in place and they were still happening, was b-complex twice a day. For the palpitations to come back all I have to do is to cut back on the B-Right to once a day and they are back in 2 days. Going back up to twice a day and they were gone in a day or two.
     
  18. Sunday

    Sunday Senior Member

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    Very interesting about the nails and heart stuff.

    My own nails had always been fast-growing before CFS. I'm a string player and I always carried clippers in my instrument case (long nails keep your fingers from securely hitting the notes). Since CFS they have grown much more slowly - until about 4 months into this protocol, I noticed they were growing fast again.

    I'm interested to read about the palpitations as my acupuncturist showed some concern about that. (My acupuncturists are my diagnosticians.) I'll try playing around with adding more mb12 and maybe adb12, though I'm up to 9mg on the adb12 and wondering if it's something else that's not working. I have somewhat more energy and fewer symptoms than I did, but I still can't function like a human being or work, because I never know when I'll go out again. David's suggestion about putting the lozenges under the upper lip may be helping me get more dosage as I can keep the lozenges up there much longer. (By the way, I can fit at least two of the mb12s up there at once by actually putting them in with my fingers. Looks funny, but lasts a long time.)

    Has anyone got any ideas for playing around with this protocol in a way that might actually give me better or quicker results? or is it just a matter of hanging in for more months? I do realize it's possible I'm just one of the ones who won't get full healing from this, but I don't feel I've tried all the possible co-factor combinations, and maybe I just need massive doses of the b12s and folate?
     
  19. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Sunday,

    I made much of my progress by finding the things that made incremental differences. I experimented constantly and did a lot of fine tuning. For instance, I experimented with different ratios between mb12 and adb12. Just recently I found that taking a Metafolin on an empty stomach each time I take either mb12 or adb12 to be very helpful for increasing benefit. That puts the serum peak of two short halflife items as overlapping peaks. I experimented with different brands of SAM-e and found that I definitely respond better to some than others. L-carnitine fumarate made a huge differnence taken without food. I experiemted with acetyl l-carnitine and a product with 4 kinds of mixed carnitines and a mix of acetyl and fumarate. Once I found what variety or brand worked best I ran the doses up and down finding the minimum most effective dose. I found that I do better on one large CNS/CSF penetrating dose of adb12 per week than on a smaller amount each day.

    The items that make a difference in how adb12 work are Metafolin, l-carnintie fumarate (or what variety works best for you), Alpha Lipoic Acid, and with or without TMG of various dosages as it can make a big difference to how the L-carnitine affects a person. D-Ribose after all those other things are in place may help with energy too. Sometimes none of 3 items work alone but all three together work very well.

    I suggest trying three or 4 brands of most everything. Look at how many varieties of zinc there are. I help a friend with her vitamins. She takes a different brand and form of zinc than I do. The variety of calcium or magnesium may make a sizable difference for you. I tried every form of carnitine made by several companies until I found what worked best for me. Try fishoil A & D versus other forms. Some of the things make a difference obvious in days, others take a month to notice after several switches back and forth.

    All in all I would say that taking all the cofactors increased total results by 50% and finding the best and fine tuning another 100%, not including finding the best brands of mb12 and adb12. However, it happened a piece at a time and some of the pieces were small. Any noticable difference is significant and cummulative.
     
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  20. Sunday

    Sunday Senior Member

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    Thanks once again, Freddd, for your advice and encouragement.
     

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