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B-12 - The Hidden Story

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Cort, Jul 26, 2009.

  1. winston

    winston

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    B12

    Hi David, I am a week or two behind you. I was on cyanob12 for a couple of years so I am waiting 2 weeks before starting the adb12 I have only started the B-Right. Sounds like the methylb12 did not knock your socks off, I am so glad for you. Right know I am pretty scared and am trying to hold it together. I had an almost 2 year remission and this last month it all came tumbling back. In the 6 years I was sick I learned what did not work and that was over 30 different treatments. I never heard of a B12 deficiency that Fredd has so gracioulsy shown us, I am pretty optimistic. Good luck.

    Lena
     
  2. dmholmes

    dmholmes Senior Member

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    What are the 4 active deficiencies? I know what the active and inactive supplements are, but not the deficiencies.

    I'm good on A, D, B complex, zinc. I have trouble with the larger pills, so I'm looking for smaller or different forms of E, Calcium, Omega 3, and Magnesium. I do have them currently, but end up not taking them because of the size, and in the case of Calcium the additional quantity required. I believe Calcium to Magnesium ratio should be 2 to 1?

    I have a Potassium supplement that is 99mg. Is that sufficient?

    Any thoughts on how this deficiency occurs? Diet, age, gut/absorption issues, missing nutrients in soil that used to be there?
     
  3. dmholmes

    dmholmes Senior Member

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    Hi Lena. I've always considered that I could be deficient in just about anything, but it's awfully hard to figure out with standard testing.

    I ran across this article last night. It's about 10 years old, and points to the benefits of methylB12 and detriments of cyanoB12.

    Hope you are feeling better after you start the adb12, I sure did.

    David
     
  4. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Lena,

    I was on cyanob12 for a couple of years so I am waiting 2 weeks before starting the adb12 I have only started the B-Right

    I don't think that there is any need to hold back on the adb12 in your situation as stated. There is no washout period needed per se from the cyanob12. The adb12 can be started right away. It is concerned alomost purely with funtinioning within the mitochondria and isn't incloved at all with methylation cycles. Cyanob12 messes up the methylation cycle, depleating the available methylators in order to be converted to methylb12. As that only happens to a very limited extent a person becomes both depleted in methylation capacity and severely deficient in both methylb12 and adb12. Cyanob12 at best corrects just a few of the 300 or so symptoms of the b12 deficiencies and allows the others to worsen. The startup symptoms of mb12 are a combination of starting the methylation cycle again and supplying mb12 for many funtional things. As some mb12 is normally converted to adb12 this also starts up at the same time. Therefore pealing off the adb12 startup effects prior to mb12 spreads out the totallity of the startup effects. The two week washout period applied specifically to the methylators which enhance the effectiveness of mb12 thereby increasing the startup effects.

    In the 6 years I was sick I learned what did not work and that was over 30 different treatments. I never heard of a B12 deficiency that Fredd has so gracioulsy shown us, I am pretty optimistic.

    Do I ever know what you mean about learning what doesn't work. I did that for decades. I went through the multitude of treatments that didn't work either. What I present here is the residue, what did work. It's pretty organized because as an analyst and software desiger, that is what I do, organize data. The 4 b12 deficiencies I speak of are hinted at in all the b12 literature, one at a time. Taking all the hints together was what lead me to being able to find my through the maze. Best of luck. I'm actually very optimistic that these things can provide substantial help to you.

    I had an almost 2 year remission and this last month it all came tumbling back

    I know what that is like. It is devestating. If your problems do indeed reside in any of these deficiencies then this will help tremendously. I am determined that folks like us should have a healthy life without having to be sacrificed on the alter of protecting 60 year old lab mistakes. Try the adb12, I think you will like it. Allow the returning energy to be euphoric rather than fearful. I remember about an hour into my first mb12 can the fear of "what if it all goes away again". That was followed by "It won't, this time I KNOW what is working and why, it's not a shot in the dark". Good luck and good health.
     
  5. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi David,

    What are the 4 active deficiencies? I know what the active and inactive supplements are, but not the deficiencies.

    There are two active b12s and there are two deficiency symptoms subsets (syndromes) for each one. There is the general body level deficiency of methylb12 and one of adenosylb12. Then in some people there are central nervous system/cerebral spinal fluid deficiencies of mb12 and adb12. These have been detected in folks with CFS/FMS and Alzheimer's as CSF cobalamin levels at 25% to 50% of that of control groups when a spinal fluid draw is tested. As this is quite new, relatively speaking, and it takes 3-5 years for each generation of research to build on previously discovered things, there is NO DEFINITION of what constitutes "deficiency" and there is zero distinction between adb12 and mb12 deficiencies. There also are no mechanisms defined as to why some [people have these deptressed symptoms. Those may come before I die of old age or not. A therapy based on those definitions is probably at least 50 -100 years away. The Japanese are the only ones looking. In the meantime I have devised a pragmatic way of testing for such deficiencies and am getting close to being able to define the symptoms subsets of each. If you look at the protocol for testing posted earlier in this thread, you will see a 50mg single dose trial of each kind of active cobalamin. After a person has reached equilibrium in the body a 50mg single dose over a 2-3 hour period will have no effect, the same as in a person who never had any level of deficiency. Some people, such as myself have a substantial effect from each kind of active b12, distinct and serparate from each other. The hypothesis is that enough active b12 penetrates the CSF via diffusion when the gradiant gets steep enough. The mb12 starts healing central problems such as neuropsych damage and subacute combined degeneration and the adb12 populates the neural mitochondria energizing the CNS, in a very pelasant way giving improved mood, more clarity of thought and so on. Between the two of them it appears to be the final assault on brainfog. Just remember, neural healing induces changes, much quicker changes than the deterioration which occurred over 20 years or more.



    I have a Potassium supplement that is 99mg. Is that sufficient?

    That depends upon how low your potassium is to begin with and if you are taking a diuretic or have kidney damage. Generally it's fine. Watch for sudden changes in how your muscles spasm. Low calcium can also do that. 4.4-4.7, midrange on the test is great. I found that 4.0 which is the low end at some labs is where I start having spasms. 3.5 at some other labs is way too low for me.


    I have trouble with the larger pills, so I'm looking for smaller or different forms of E, Calcium, Omega 3, and Magnesium

    Do you do better with rounds or caplets? I seen some smaller ones through the years. it's a matter of brand and dose size. You may have to take multiples of smaller sizes. Calcium can come in chewable forms and liquids. Good luck. Perhaps some others can offer you brand info. If you go to www.iherb.com and search by item, such as calcium, pages of choices will come up and you can easily compare.


    I believe Calcium to Magnesium ratio should be 2 to 1?

    I don't know. I had to adjust by effect. It sounds like a good starting place.

    I also suggest a healthful diet all the way around. Dark geen leafies often have calcium in them if you have ever fed iguanas and birds, you have to pay atention to that, and which ones do.

    I don't want to sound like anybody's mother, but eat your vegetables. This is a great time of year for fresh garden veggies.
     
  6. froufox

    froufox Senior Member

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    Hi Freddd,

    I just wanted to ask you about cyanocobalamin. In your observations have you found that problems can occur at taking any level of cb12? For example, even as low as 5mcg?

    Thanks.
     
  7. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Froufox,

    The people who had the most problems going to methylb12, as far as I am aware, were either taking periodic, such as monthly, injections of 1000 mcg or oral daily doses such as 500mcg or more. I was taking 550mcg to 1500mcg for decades.

    However, there is a different kind of possible effect as well. When I was introduced to low levels of cyanob12 in food, such as cereal or Metracal, I started having frequent, what I now would call, b12 crashes. It appears to have made a borderline situation worse. I don't have any other data from anybody else to support that. My children were exposed from infancy so there was no change point in their lives as there was in mine when cyanob12 was widely introduced.
     
  8. froufox

    froufox Senior Member

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    Hi Freddd,

    Thnx for the quick reply. I guess its hard to know then for sure. I want to try your protocol but I'm taking a supp with just 4mcg of cyanob12. I think I will take a chance anyway for now and hope that it doesnt cause any problems!

    Thanks
     
  9. dmholmes

    dmholmes Senior Member

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    Update

    Might be time to move this discussion to a new thread...

    Fred,

    Forgot to mention one thing, after starting the adb12 I started needed less sleep at night. I've been needing about 10 for a while. Last 4 days it has been closer to 8. Hope that continues.

    On the mb12 today, the first 1/4 tablet made me feel hyper. Not jittery, just a bit wired. Then a bit of a crash. The second 1/4 tablet made me crash for about a half hour. Any change recommended? Is it possible to just be adb12 deficient?

    Thanks,
    David
     
  10. dmholmes

    dmholmes Senior Member

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    Forgot to mention also, I upped the B-Right to 2 pills today.
     
  11. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi froufox,,

    I think that the tiny amount you are taking will be completely overwhelmed by the amounts of mb12 that we are taking.
     
  12. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi David,

    It is possible to be just adb12 deficient, but it is usually a blend to some extent. When did you take the second half, immediately or some hours later? The mb12 affects melatonin production. Many find it advantageous to take all their mb12 in the morning, especially at first. That you have any effect at all indicates that you are mb12 deficient. Taking the mb12 does kind of shake things up. I've called it playing 52 pickup with symptoms. It directly affects the brain neurology, activating various sections and affecting neurotransmitters. It's not unusual having both effects you have had as your brain starts to wake up. It is an aspect of startup. Generally speaking these two supplements with methylfolate will normalize sleeping. B12 deficiencies causes sleep disorders of many varieties. I would bet you will feel better rested too as restorative sleep is restored. One of the effects I had was that while I was deficient the difference between sleeping and waking was opening my eyes. After getting established with the mb12 I was awake during the day and got really tired at night for the first time in decades instead of being all dragged out all the time. Tomorrow just continue your titration taking 3/4 of a tablet. You might try it all at once or not, your choice. Just make each piece last 45 minutes or more if possible. Some found under the upper lip to be best for that and most effective. Right now you are bringing you body level up. Healing is just starting up. As your body level increases, healing increases as there is some propotionality. You need to determine whether you do better with a higher level for a shorter time or a somewhat lower level for a longer time. To heal my neurology I need a very high level constantly.

    So far it's all going as smooth as you could want. There are half a dozen more items or so that could all add an increment to what has happened so far. This mode of startup tries to stretch it out and make things incremental rather than starting with a bang with everything at once. The "wired and then crash" will generally smooth out. That pattern is often indicative of a lack of a cofactor which will be taken care of as things continue. Don't worry about it, just enjoy the ride.

    With the B-right, breakfast and dinner generally works out best to keep the serum level relativley even.
     
  13. dmholmes

    dmholmes Senior Member

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    Thanks Fred. The mb12 doses were about 6 hours apart. Also causing increased urination frequency.

    I've been doing them under upper lip, not sure if I can fit more than 1/4 mb12 in there :)
     
  14. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi David,

    Also causing increased urination frequency

    Do you have edema?
     
  15. Cece

    Cece

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    Hi Fred,

    I had a 10mg methyl B12 shot along with 400mcg of folic acid. I felt amazing the day after the shot and also the next day. Then it wore off, never to be repeated with the subsequent shots. I had the first injection at my dr.s office and I did the following shots at home.

    I was wondering why I could have felt so awake, alive, and energized for a couple days past the first injection. What could that mean?

    I'm trying to read all your info about B12 and learn. Thanks for posting. I'm new to the forum. Deb
     
  16. jenbooks

    jenbooks Guest

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    After thinking reading and reviewing all this fascinating info I bought Pharmax hydroxocobalamin in purified water.

    My reason for this is I'm so super sensitive to fillers and I can't tolerate mannitol, xylitol and all this crapola that is in the sublinguals that Freddd prefers. In addition, from Rich's work, slow and steady improvement is seen on hydroxy b12 for those who fell sick later in life. I fell really ill after a lyme tickbite. Also, I don't necessarily think I want extra folic acid in my b12. I want to take pure supplements. Unfortunately folapro does have fillers also and I'm kind of stuck with that.

    I'm going to put the hydroxy under my tongue but I may mix with water as well to dilute? I have to see what the dose is in one drop when I get it. I am going to start with microdoses of "pinch of salt" crushed up folapro.

    I am dealing with a dental issue right now that is ovewhelming me and my system so I may not start this right away.

    That's all I'm going to do for methylation. I don't want SAM-E. I will continue to take my glutathione IV. I had my drip yesterday and I always feel so much better even while it's going into my system. It's like an all-over body gladness.

    If at some point I feel I can add in more active b-12's I will but I don't like the fillers at all and they would be detrimental to me. I am very MCS with lyme and I try to take only the purest foods and very few supplements.

    For me the most cautious step by step approach is the best.

    Will update later on if something good happens :)
     
  17. brenda

    brenda Senior Member

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    Jarrow Methyl 5000

    Hi newbie here

    I'm sitting with half a tablet of J M 5000 under my tongue after reading this thread.

    I bought the bottle about 18 months ago, taking them when I remember them, not so much now, but have not been taking the tablets as suggested here.

    When I first got them, knowing that my b12 levels were lowish and that a sibling had pernicious anaemia, I took 4 of them thinking that maybe that would equal an injection. Boy! What a reaction - extreme jitteryness. Now I recognised that symptom which I have had after taking iodine and using adrenal support pills. I was thinking that it was due to my thyroid getting some stimulation and as my adrenals are low, not having the adrenaline to cope so going slightly hyperthyroid. It's just a guess.

    We'll see what this dose does :)

    brenda
     
  18. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Deb,

    If you go back and read the posts made containing the basic info on the active b12s and cofactors it will save a lot of rewriting or reposting. In my experience the usual reason for a one time effect is that a person is out of necessary cofactor(s). For example, if you can't convert folic acid adequately (half the population) then methylfolate might bring methylb12 back to life as it were. That you had a the reaction at all indicates deficiency. People who don't have symptoms and are not deficient don't have reactions to mb12. Anotyher factor could be that you are actuallyu deficienct in adenmosylb12 and that you converted ok and that takes much longer to have a response again.

    Mb12 is often the main limiting factor. As soon as tyhat is [present the body goes to work repairing itself and promptly runs out of something else and comes to a grinding halt. Many people have demonstrated this over and over. In the earlier posts there is one called "Why B12 doesn't work" or something like that. It gives all the usual reasons for b12 not working such as you have experienced. A methylb12 injection only lasts a few days before symptoms start returning. Read the ZONEs page that explains the different healing zones and how they relate to dosage types and amounts. Then let's discuss how you can get it to work for you and heal and feel good.
     
  19. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Brenda,

    I have observed a number of people who came to the same conclusion as you and chased thyroid doses. It isn't that at all as they all found out. They all ended up back exactly where they started. Have your thyroid tests done, don't go chasing this based on assumptions. Its that adb12, and most folks convert some mb12 to adb12, occupies the mitochondria producing ATP for energy. It is this boost that is felt as well as an increase in neurotransmitters. It has nothing at all to do with thyroid. That is a wild goose chase. Titrate onto the mb12, with adb12, B-Right and all the rest of the essential and basic cofactors. Add the methylfolate after the mb12 is comfortably established and then other things as you see how things are working. Feeling a bit jittery is normal after years of severely depressed metabolic rate and other b12 deficiency problems. Give it some time and it will level out.
     
  20. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Jenbooks,

    It's unfortunate that MCS is a mb12 deficiency symptom. It does respond to mb12 over time but it takes the body some months to wind down the hyperreactivity.

    I'm going to mention one more thing about the glutathione which I am writing up to make a more complete post when I get it done. In addition to putting me back into hard methylb12 deficiency it also put me into immediate folate deficiency despite taking 800 mcg of methylfolate a day. That lingered for 6 months afterwards until I upped my methylfolate amount a few days ago. I'm amazed yet again. All the mystery symptoms induced by the glutathione precursors are cleared up or almost so in the past 3 days.

    It sounds like you might be best served with mb12 injections until the hyperreactivcity goes away. That takes generally less than a year on the active b12s, some folks even quicker.

    It's a shame that hydroxyb12 leaves 75% of the b12 deficiency symptoms unrelieved or worsened.
     

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