Looking Ahead to Change: Little by Little
I don't make New Year's Resolutions. I don't think I ever really did, but the last decade or two would have been enough to stifle that impulse. I've just been too aware that I don't have that much control over what happens in my life.
Discuss the article on the Forums.

B-12 - The Hidden Story

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Cort, Jul 26, 2009.

  1. winston

    winston Senior Member

    Messages:
    100
    Likes:
    12
    Central California
    B12

    Hi Sunday, sounds like you are making good progress. How many of the mb12 5 mg & the adb12 are you taking? I am still on the B and only made it to 2 B-right, 1 mb12 5 mg, 1 adb12, and 1 folate. I haven't felt any improvements except I do sleep better. The fatigue is different from the fatigue before B12. I think this fatigue isn't quite as bad, I just don't have any drive to do anything. I am seeing a gastro Dr this Thursday and probably schedule a upper scope to have biopsy of the stomach lining. I have all the causes of Autoimmune Atrophic Gastritis and the treatment is B12 due to not being able to absorb B12. If I don't have this disease I am still not sure if I am B12 deficient but I still remember that wonderful honeymoon when first starting the Bs. Each week I felt better and it continued for almost 6 weeks until I crashed. I have not had a honeymoon this time!

    Lena
     
  2. Sunday

    Sunday Senior Member

    Messages:
    732
    Likes:
    46
    Well Lena, hope that means it will be a more lasting relationship this time! I know what you mean about the difference in fatigue, it's more like being very very tired and less like being crashy as I go along, although I still do get crashy. I'm only up to 5 mg of mb12 total and 6 mg adb12 total, I have been working my way very slowly. I'm thinking of making my next jump bigger, maybe to 10 mg mb12 total, testing out Freddd's idea that the original startup is painful, but as you go along the difference between a small jump and a large one isn't all that big. (At least that's the way I've read it.) On the other hand, being up and more functional is pretty fun so maybe I'll just inch it up again. I'm so glad you're feeling better, even if it's very slow. I will say in my own case the progress feels painfully slow, I keep having to remind myself that it is progress, and when I look back I see the results.
     
  3. xlynx

    xlynx Senior Member

    Messages:
    163
    Likes:
    6
    London, UK
    Hi Fred,

    I am still getting through my first 2 months of methyl b12 startup with metafolin, b complex and the rest of the list. I wanted to ask, is there a possibility to overdo it with b12? If it is what are the overdose symptoms?

    I appreciate that I probably going through startup but I always have the concern in the back of my mind :).

    Also in order to educate myself a bit more, what would you suggest for me to bring my knowledge up. Any good books or resources?

    Thanks, Jerry
     
  4. kat0465

    kat0465 Senior Member

    Messages:
    230
    Likes:
    5
    Texas
    Ok, Since i can't evn figure out how to start a New post, i guess ill just have to try & do it this way(Sigh,brain Fog!)

    My Question is about b12 protocols, what is the difference between fredds & rich Vanks?? im confused, but would like to try it. i looked at the symptoms fredd posted and many of them are familiar.it's hard to believe we can have so many symptoms & still be walking around,Well, kinda.

    if anyone can give me thier take on the b12 stuff i'd sure appreciate it.

    Kat
     
  5. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,891
    Likes:
    1,363
    Salt Lake City

    Hi Kat,

    I had about 200 off that list of symptoms. I was barely able to walk around.

    The differences in a nutshell are a difference in philosophy and hypothetical considerations. Rich believes that hydroxyb12 (an inactive form) will correct some of the problems in 2/3 of the people trying it with depleted methylation, and it will, a methylation block he is calling it. I expect a combination of methylb12, adenosylb12, and methylfolate (all active forms required by the body) with necessary cofactors, to work more quickly to greater depth on more of the symptoms for more of the folks with those symptoms and on virtually all the symptoms for some of the folks.

    He divides his approach into simplified and full depending upon the number of supplements used. I've divided it into essentials, basics (a&d etc) and critical cofactors. The active b12 full program is more complicated than Richs as a person has to do a lot of individual testing/trials to come up with the best doses and balance. However, the full program of Rich's depends upon expensive lab tests. The active b12 program is based on modification by results. Except for the active b12s vs hydroxyb12 we are dealing with basically all the same nutrients with minor differences.
     
  6. kat0465

    kat0465 Senior Member

    Messages:
    230
    Likes:
    5
    Texas
    Thanks fredd,
    i too have just aout every symptom on the large list! and thank you for responding so quick.Just have one more question, before someone starts the b12 proocol, do you think it's necessary to do bloodwork?? or just try it??
    i have tried so many supplements, without much sucess, i backed off a lot of things, and only take 3 supps now.
    thanks again for your help.
    Kat
     
  7. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,891
    Likes:
    1,363
    Salt Lake City
    Hi Jerry,

    To keep things in perspective, b12 including methylb12, adenosymb12 and hydroxyb12 have no known toxicity, 35,000,000 micrograms IV of hydroxyb12 was given FDA aproval for treating cynide poisoning. It is the most stable of the 3. Rich has pointed out that at some "huge" IV dose it was suspected of causing neurological effect by forming methylmercury in 2 persons qwith high mercury load. According to a model of it I built using various sources of data, the minimum dose of mb12 size for causing enough circulating methylmercury to trigger minimal neurological toxic damage was about 700mg IV, but that could be 7,000mg depending upon assumptions about what percentage of methylb12 losses it's methylgroup to mercury before it is vary rapidly excreted. Whatever ones assumptions it is a very large dose of methylb12 approximately 50-100 times larger or more of a possible and probable high dose of methylb12.

    There are no known "overdose" symptoms. There are no known toxic symptoms except for cyanocobalamin which carries a cyanide group into the body with each molecule.

    Some people have had extremely unpleasant startup symptoms of probably many varying causes and chose to stop because of that. Most people will experience startup symptoms, some a multitude of severe seeming sensations. It is said that some 600 processes may all be on hold waiting for the b12. It can be very intense when they all try to start up at once And some things hurt when they are healing. Various people have various hypothesis' to explain what is happening and they evaluate what is going on in terms of their hypothesis and continue, cutback or quit depending upon their hypothetical considerations.


    If you like technical reading, just used google scholar to look up methylcobalamin, mecocobalamin and other variations you come across. If you want a mix of article type, and watch out for advertiser hype, some have more double talk than others, use Google.

    I have no specific items for getting a general feel. There are a couple of Life Extension (LE) Magazines that have some good articles that are factual but not hyped.
     
  8. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,891
    Likes:
    1,363
    Salt Lake City
    Hi Kat,

    As damage increases daily if it is happening, if you have to wait it's probably not worth it. Since the tests in no way predict who will or will not have a response to the active b12s. Said response often happens so quickly and strongly that there is no doubt at all that there has been a response. If you have been taking b12 in any form including breakfast cereals, multivitamins, etc you have probabaly absorbed enough that you are not "clinically" deficient. As people can be functionally deficient to well over the top end of mesurement range, it can only tell you if 2 cars of the body train have tipped over as it were and it can't tell you at all if you have a CNS/CSF cobalamin deficiency.

    So if it doesn't take food out of your pocket, and you don't have to wait and iof you haven't been supplementing then testing might be interesting to know, But it won't stop anything. There is no answer these tests can give that should override symptoms. Before mb12 no supplement ever seemed to do anything. After mb12 almost all the supplements did things.
     
  9. Sushi

    Sushi Moderator and Senior Member Albuquerque

    Messages:
    12,969
    Likes:
    18,355
    Albuquerque
    Freddd,

    Ahh...reconceptualization??:Sign Help: I am talking about excreting heavy metals like mercury from the body...not getting a eureka moment about my approach to healing.:D

    I know this isn't congruent with your understanding of methylation protocols, but it is definitely happening for me and several others on the forum. I can fully appreciate that you can't really make sense of Laser Energetic Detox (it combines laser and photon technology with homeopathy)--especially since almost all the reputable articles on it have been removed from the web. :confused:

    But please let my experience and the experience of some others on the forum stand without being labeled "reconceptualization."

    I only post this to affirm that there are many points of view here and none should be dismissed as placebo effects--no matter what our personal experience and theories. OK?:Sign Peace:

    Sushi
     
  10. Dreambirdie

    Dreambirdie work in progress

    Messages:
    5,327
    Likes:
    4,002
    N. California
    Thanks Sushi---

    I wanted to respond along the same lines, but you expressed it for me better than I could have.
    Since we all are truly unique (please check the fingerprints), there is NO ONE ABSOLUTE RIGHT WAY to heal us all.

    I do best when I trust my own body and its responses, and worst when I replace other people's judgments about what's right for me with my own. It's been a very hard lesson and I have finally learned it. I don't intend to force protocols on myself that clearly detox my body (full of assorted heavy metals) faster than I can physically handle it. Detoxing too fast is DEPLETING, not healing, in my case. I don't have the reserves to PUSH myself like that, and so I won't.

    So thanks again Sushi. I appreciate your thoughts about this.
     
  11. lebowski

    lebowski

    Messages:
    84
    Likes:
    1
    mercury detox

    hi fredd ,

    i remember ur model for mb12 to chelate mercury and according to that model really very little amounts could be chelated which do not explain peoples mercury expiriences ( if the tests and interpretitions of metal detox symptoms r correct ) .. what i want to say ; can there be an indirect metal detox issue taking place with the introduction of b12s ? the one that body could not do for long long time and finally started but in full speed which may be really too fast for some people ? i had a short period of arithmia at the very beginning for example and with just 2-3 grms of adb12 , that was easy to handle but u know it can be very dangerous too if it is strong ..
    so i say , maybe for pwc the dangerous effects of b12s r not only the toxic effects of it that u mentioned happens with 100 times of the doses r used ? ..
    for me lemon juice , salt , niacin , grape seed or calcium works to correct the arytmia , hope this works for others too ..
     
  12. kat0465

    kat0465 Senior Member

    Messages:
    230
    Likes:
    5
    Texas
    Thanks again for answering again so quick,
    thats what i kinda thought, and Yes it would take food out of my Pocket for sure! and knowing my Ins like i do, it probably wouldnt even reimburse me.i guess being b12 deficient is kinda like being Thyroid deficient, it can look ok on paper, but were all not the same as the paper says were supposed to be.( am i making sense?)i was also concerned about overdosing, but i read the other post, and it seems pretty much Impossible to do that with the b12.

    i should have alll of my supps bought in the next week or so,and im sure i'll have tons more questions.thanks for all yur help.
    Kat
     
  13. xlynx

    xlynx Senior Member

    Messages:
    163
    Likes:
    6
    London, UK
    Hi Fred,

    Thank you for your reply.

    I have been trying to keep going with the b12 but after 2 months I have had to cut back due to extreme overwhelming dizziness. I was taking a b complex with 500mcg cyanocobalomin and the mb12 sublingual from jarrow. I am chaging over to the B-Right and ditching the old b complex from tomorrow, I wonder if I could have been adding to the dizziness by using the cyanocobalomin?. I have also ordered the countrylife 3mg and and going to start over with a quater tablet a day of that with the B-Right twice a day. Any ideas why after stopping the mb12 sublingual I am still dizzy for 2 days and then it starts to pass, how long does B12 stay in the blood for? Anyway after 4 days of stopping the B12 my dizziness subsided by about 70% and so I tried to take a 5mg mb12 yesterday and I am two days spinning around the room again. Reminds me of the days when I was so drunk at the end of night.

    I am pretty sure that I am improving on the B12 the first month I took it I was getting all sorts of strange nuero sensations and then that passed over into extreme dizziness that is not tolarable.

    I really want to push forward with the B12 but I think I am going to have to take it slower, I cant cope with this :). My B12 blood serum level went up from 200 to 600 in the last 5 months. My doctor said he wants me to be up at around 2000 at least?

    I seem to have somewhat improved energy but cant do anything with it for being bedbound through dizziness.

    Any light that can be shed will be greeted with open arms, its quite a challenge getting the balance right.

    Thank you, Jerry
     
  14. velha508

    velha508

    Messages:
    64
    Likes:
    5
    Hi Jerry,

    One of the only symptoms that methylB12 brought on for me was dizziness. I however seemed to get past it relatively easily compared to what you have described.

    PRIOR to starting Freddd's protocol I was taking a Jarrow multiple vitamin (multi 1 to 3), it contains methylB12 in a tablet form thus only what is capable of being absorbed in your digestive system gets in (very small amount).

    The whole dose is 3 tablets. I started taking 1/2 a tablet once a day (because I had been having allergic like reactions to unexpected things at the time). Anyway, I started feeling dizzy. Typically for most of the day, after a while I was able to attribute it to the vitamin (mB12) as the dizziness got less and less each day, but always started in some time period immediately after taking the vitamin. Overall the dizziness lasted 2 weeks (I think, maybe a bit more?).

    Anyway, the reason for sharing this story is to show you that 1) dizziness is not an uncommon reaction to mB12 and 2) the dizziness might be more tolerable if you take lower doses to start out.

    I never had a 'keep me in bed' level of dizziness from any dose and mine always subsided within 24 hours. Also, once this passed from that small amount of multiple (by the end of the 2 weeks I was taking a whole tablet per day). I did not again get dizziness from any other dose of mB12. This seems to go along with what Freddd has said about smaller doses having larger percieved effects. As your symptoms sound more severe than mine, you may need a lower and longer titration to make it work.

    Have you tried taking very small portions of a 1000 mcg sublingual? You might want to do this until your symptoms become tolerable.
    Velha
     
  15. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,891
    Likes:
    1,363
    Salt Lake City
    Hi Sushi,

    And you don't think that applying a laser lightfor heavy metal detox is a different concept, a different understanding, than anything else discussed here? You are not taking the laser orally and absorbing it digestively. It doesn't appear to qualify in any way as a nutritional supplement. That's all I was saying. Without a different understanding, a reconceptualization nobody would think of applying a laser. Why is that such a scary idea, that you may come to think differently about something? It has nothing to do with what I may or may not think about heavy metals. You sound very defensive about the whole idea. I'm not saying anything about placebo effect in which idea I place very little credibility. That's your thing.
     
  16. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,891
    Likes:
    1,363
    Salt Lake City
    Hi Lebowski,


    with just 2-3 grms of adb12

    So you took 1000 tablets of adb12? That's a huge dose!

    maybe for pwc the dangerous effects of b12s r not only the toxic effects of it that u mentioned happens with 100 times of the doses r used


    So you are saying what happens if somebody takes 100,000 tablets of adb12? It would cost them $10,000 for starters. And they would have red drool streaming down their chests. Get out the drool buckets. I have no idea what else may happen. What happens if a person takes 100,000 asprin or ibuprofen? Nothing good! Why would anybody do such a ridiculous and potentially dangerous thing. Of course they warn people not to take a bath with their TV sets in the water so who knows what people may do.

    Adb12 needs to be in balance with other nutriants like magnesium, calcium, zinc, b-complex, mb12, l-carnitine fumarate.


    i remember ur model for mb12 to chelate mercury and according to that model really very little amounts could be chelated which do not explain peoples mercury expiriences

    First, mb12 doesn't chelate anything. It is suggesteds that it can methylate mecury at the rate of one methyl group from one molecule of mb12 to one atom of mercury which increases the soluablity of the mercury. That means that it takes about 7mg of mb12 to methylate 1mg of mercury. The mininum level for toxic effects is a lot higher and 100% of the bodily mb12 dose isn't used that way. So no, it doesn't explain why people have an experience hypothecized to be a "mercury" experience or a mercury methylation experience specifically. That doesn't mean that mb12 doesn't have other mechanisms that might affect mercury in some way. All I was trying to say that it isn't likely a brute force methylation effect of mb12.
     
  17. xlynx

    xlynx Senior Member

    Messages:
    163
    Likes:
    6
    London, UK
    Hi Velha,

    I have only taken the 5mg mb12 under the tounge for 45 mins with my B Complex every morning. I was trying to keep going because I dont mind a bit of suffering for the greater good but it just got to the point where I need a break from it. Dizziness was my first cfs symtpom and I was dizzy for a few weeks before getting ill but the mb12 seems to magnify it.

    I get the dizziness when I take the tablet and then it comes and goes in heavy waves that really overwhelm me. Some days by the evening it had calmed down and others was all day. The problem is I cant say it was really getting much better.

    I am going to try and take it slow now.

    Thanks for sharing as it is nice to know you had experienced something similar, I am just frustrated that I cant make headway through the dizziness.

    Thanks,
    Jerry
     
  18. lebowski

    lebowski

    Messages:
    84
    Likes:
    1
    hi fredd ,

    sorry for the misspelling , i wasted ur time , i had to correct it after i saw later that i d forgot " m " before the " grms" ..

    " maybe for pwc the dangerous effects of b12s r not only the toxic effects of it that u mentioned happens with 100 times of the doses r used
    So you are saying what happens if somebody takes 100,000 tablets of adb12? It would cost them $10,000 for starters. And they would have red drool streaming down their chests. Get out the drool buckets. I have no idea what else may happen. What happens if a person takes 100,000 asprin or ibuprofen? Nothing good! Why would anybody do such a ridiculous and potentially dangerous thing. Of course they warn people not to take a bath with their TV sets in the water so who knows what people may do."

    but u made a good thing out of a wrong thing i guess : )
    maybe we can do it again if u like ; hey fredd i took $ 1 million worth of mb12 today and i feel dizzy , can u interpret this for me pls : p


    what i m saying was some of the 600 start up reactions of the protocol can be about mobilizing/ chelating toxic metals (not the brute force methylation effect of mb12 ) correlated with the doses used and if this is the case slow start maybe could make things easier for some people with some intolerable symptoms like arrhythmia .. so these people dont back off from something that could change their lives positively in the long term ..
     
  19. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,891
    Likes:
    1,363
    Salt Lake City

    Hi Lebowski,

    Definitely some people need to titrate. The standard AMA wisdom is that any perceivable effect from b12 is a placebo effect. It has no Known toxic limits. I remember an illustration of somebody taking the lethal toxic dose of marihuana which is said to be 1500 pounds in 15 minutes according to expert testimony in a court case. If you could cram 1500 pounds down their throat in 15 minutes and they would explode. At some point too much of anthing can have fatal but not necessarily toxic outcomes. Remember that Country Life dibencozide also has 200mcg of folic acid. That amount and considerbly more on some level could conceivably cause problems. How many do you have to take until the sorbitol causes digestive problems?

    Taking adb12 and all these things is like accelerating your car from the 5 mph it has been stuck at for 15 years to 70 mph on the interstate for the very first time above 5 mph. 70mph causes more stress on all the systems. Problems hiding for years or broken mechanisms that made no difference at 5 mph could make a big difference, like not advancing the spark. In a shakedown cruise one expects things to go wrong that still need repair or aren't finished being repaired. We are taking these very broken down bodies and trying to patch them up. Some things probably get stressed in doing that because that part isn't as repaired as a different one. For the last nearly 7 years I have been looking for the next piece of the puzzle that will keep the healing progressing, one at a time mostly. Now I'm looking for that next piece above and beyond what I am already doing that will carry my neurological healing the rest of the way to recovered if possible.
     
  20. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,891
    Likes:
    1,363
    Salt Lake City
    Hi Jerry,

    As you said, Dizziness was your first symptom that made you notice it. With the mb12 there is often a return to previous symptoms, often as the symptoms are worked through backwards, until the state previous to the symptoms are reached. By the time you became aware of the dizziness I would bet that things were already 5 years or more under way. The original appearance of the dizziness sat on top of years of other changes and as those heal, the dizziness likely will recede. In my experience the neurological healing takes at least months to years. It is relatively slow in recovering. Good luck.
     

See more popular forum discussions.

Share This Page