Hi Starcycle, Are you saying that the B12 protocol rarely seems to work for thyroid patients I'm not saying that at all. I have been hypothyroid since childhood and the active b12 protocol worked fantastically for me. Or are you saying you don't agree with their conclusion regarding B12 affecting the adrenals (and then thyroid function) in any significant way, I don't know how it affects adrenals and thyroid funtion. What I do know is that an unussually large percentage of people responsive to the active b12s and methylfolate also are hypothyroid. Hashimotto's is specifically linked causually to b12 deficiency, an autoimmune reaction caused by low b12. B12 does not change or heal hypothyroidism. During startup it is certainly possible that there are transitory effects of various hypothecized sorts as there are a multitude of temporary fluctuations as the body changes from a very shutdown mode back to an operating mode and a multitude of functions start coming back. and therefore recommend continuing? Most of the people who have various hypothyroid conditions continue the active b12s and their path through the startup symptoms and afterwards appears approximately the same as those with no thyroid issues. ALso, as they emerge from the startup period and things settle down, there appear to be no effects on the thyroid funtioning and there have been very few changes in test resuts or medications over the short or long run. Iow, it seems that you believe it would be worth going ahead even with the concerns I have raised, is that right? I'm just trying to get sense of whether this will be worth trying, or just has the potential to cause a worsening like so many other things. People without possible deficiency symptoms don't normally have any effect at all from active b12s. I know that sounds strange to a person who has had a lot of reaction, but a lot of people, probably a majority, have no reaction at all. I think that this has a lot of potential at correcting all sorts of problems for a person who is hypothyroid but not the hypothyroid condition itself. The NORMAL course of somebody who is deficient is to have a startup reaction ranging from barely noticable if at all to extreme startup reaction involving potentially hundreds of symptoms. All the symptoms are perceived in an intensified way at the very least as mb12 affects the very wetware of perceptions. Some things may actually be intensified. They certainly shift around and change dramatically often within minutes to hours. One of the most common effects is that of being energized. It happens at the very least because adb12, and some of the mb12 converts to adb12 in most people, starts occupying the mitochondria increasing the amount of ATP being produced. Sometimes the extreme fatigue chracteristic of severe b12 deficiency is relieved starting in less than an hour. When a person has been at 1% energy for years, a sudden increase to 10% is quite a shock and feels very abnormal and may interfer with sleep as well. Further the nervous system is "energized" and starts working more. Again, "normal" funtioning feels totally abnormal after years of non functioning. I'm also extremely leery of pumping in that much methyl b12 with known mercury poisoning issues. Can you summarize any effects or dangers that b12, adenosyl or methyl form, is known or theorized to cause in mercury patients? This was discussed at some length much earlier in the thread. Rich mentioned knowing of two patients that had trouble after huge IV infusions in that they demonstrrated what appeared to be some mercury toxicity. I built a model based on information on mercury and methylmercury in a number of places and came up with the number of mgs IV that could reasonably be expected to perhaps cause a problem, and that was 700mg as a single dose. As a 5000mcg sublingual dose can put 1mg into the bloodstream, a single dose of 700 5mg tablets might cause problems. Also, 1 mg of mercury in the body could disable 100% of the methylb12 a person has in their body now and for the next 5 years or more possibly explaining why 80% of mercury symptoms are also b12 deficiency symptoms. At normal level of mb12 input a very small amount of mercury is converted by the body to methylmercury and elliminated by the liver at the rate of 1% per day. So over a 1 year period, 97% of the mercury converted to methylmercury is cleared from the body. Each year after that another 97% is elliminated. A steady stream of methylb12 then appears to cause the removal of mercury from the body. With a small but steady stream the peak amount present at a given dose of mb12 appears to occur around day 300 where it remains level as more is released and 1% is elliminated daily. Now this is only a first draft model and I am awaiting any comments on it or references that suggest other rates of excretion or anything that would require a refinement of the model. I get a day-long effect from 1/8 of a tablet - I really can't imagine taking 8 of those in a day, Becasuse of the way serum halflife works, a larger dose doesn't last a whole lot longer. Also 64x the dose might only have twice the effect. It is not linear. The first 250mcg appears to make the most observable differences. In running a series of comparisons with injections, the amount of effect appeared to increase the most in the first 1mg, a small amount more with the second mg and very little going to 5mg. Then at 7.5mg there is one more sudden increase we have noted as the dose that gets into the CNS for some people, and then no difference in effect up to 25mg. esp. if I'm going to end up methylating a ton of mercury and causing more neuro damage. Taking even large sublingual doses can't methylate a ton of mercury, metaphorical or literal. The methyl group consitutes 1.6% by mass of mb12 as only this part methylates mercury. As mercury has about 1/7 the mass of mb12 it takes about 7mgs of mb12 to methylate 1 mg of mercury assuming 100% effeciency. As efficiency is actually only a microscopic portion of the mb12 as the body uses and/or retains perhaps 20 mcg (1000mcg per mg) with all the rest being excreted in the urine, 99% unchanged within 24 hours. So even a 10% rate looks generous, such that it takes 70mg to methylate a mg of mercury and at a more realistic 1% efficiency then 700mg of mb12 to methylate 1mg of mercury. That is two years of 5mg sublingiual daily of a 5 star mb12 sublingual brand, and most of that would be excreted during that time. The beginning of very mild toxic symptoms is considered to be around 40mgs of methyl mercury. Mb12 is a vitamin with neuroprotecticve characteristics and promotes healing even from damage from other sources. Finally, if the Source Naturals adenosyl-b is crap I didn't say that. I said that their sublingual methylb12 5mg was not effective. I don't know if their other sizes or types of sublingulas use the same mix of ingrediants or if the pill base itself is the responsible party. There are variations in the effectiveness of injected mb12 similar to those in the sublingual mb12 so it may be the different bacterial variations of mb12 that are causing the problem. All I can say about their adb12 is that we didn't test it. At the time we could only find the Country Life and it was great. I use and have used other Source Naturals products without any problem. and the Country Life isn't tolerated, Have you tried it? It has folic acid in it but not methylfolate. Methylfolate is the most critical cofactor with the two active b12s. what other brand do you recommend? I think you said there were two good ones, with CL being the best? I don't care if it's not as good, as long as it's somewhat active and doesn't contain folate. If you could do a side by side test of the two adb12s that would be good but would take a lot longer than an mb12 test. What kind of reaction do you have to what kinds of folates? Folic acid? Folinic acid? methylfolate? are they different for the different forms. What are the exact reactions?