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B-12 - The Hidden Story

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Cort, Jul 26, 2009.

  1. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Athene,

    What kind of b12? That can make all the difference in the world. Also, can you describe the soreness in more detail?
     
  2. markmc20001

    markmc20001 Guest

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    sore mouth

    I can't rmemeber very welll, but think that my dr said b2-b3, or zinc should help with mouth sores. When I ate pizza, skin in my mouth started sluffing off. I think it was the missing b2-b3 vits. Kind of vague, but something to try if nothing else works.

    question for Freddd and folks. Should my doctor order any tests for vitamins to check and see if I am getting too much of some vitamin? I know awhile back I had a high b6 reading, but I may have taken a B6 plement the morning of the test not knowing I was going to be tested.
     
  3. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Mark,

    B-vitamins are water soluable with serum halflife measured in hours. Many of these ranges are merely statistical measures of a population that do not define an optimum level. Take b12 for instance. The socalled "normal" range is 170-1100pg/ml in the USA and 550-1500pg/ml in Japan. Serious neurological changes start occurring below 550pg/ml. However neurological deterioration can occur at over 1500pg/ml. My serum cobalamin level probably averages 200,000pg/ml depending upon assumptions and peaks at over 1,000,000 pg/ml. I start getting return of symptoms in 3 days without. Any doc that limited me to 1100pg/ml would put me in a wheelchair in 3 months.

    A defect in all the vitamin levels is that they are highly biased towards usage of inactive pseudo vitamins like cyanob12, hydroxyb12 and folic acid so there is no telling what optimum levels are if accompanied by active vitamins like adb12, mb12 and methylfolate.

    Comments of one researcher unfamiliar with active b12s was amazed to see a single injection of mb12 result in a serum level of more than 1,000,000pg/ml, for a short while at least. The twice a day suggestion on a b-complex is because twice a day makes more difference than two pills at once because of the short serum halflifes.
     
  4. klutzo

    klutzo Senior Member

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    Teeth sensitivity

    Athene,
    I am using methyl B12 one day, and adenosyl B12 the next, alternating all the time. I find the AB12 dissolves so quickly I do not have trouble, but the much larger MB12 takes hours to dissolve, even if I break them in half, and I must move the pieces around in my mouth a lot. If I leave a piece near my front teeth for very long, they will be incredibly sensitive when I brush.....they will feel like a tooth being drilled by the dentist with no novacaine!

    I asked Fred about this long ago, and he told me to keep moving the lozenges around frequently. I break my MB12 lozenges in half, otherwise they fall out from under my lip, since they are too big. I move them every few minutes, to the sides, to the back, to the front again, etc. I still have sensitive front teeth, but it's not unbearable anymore.

    I don't have any sores, so I can't help with that, sorry.

    klutzo
     
  5. _Kim_

    _Kim_ Guest

    klutzo, thanks for posting this. I have found that the most sensitive area is over my cuspids. I haven't broken up the mB12 (fits okay in my big mouth :D ), but I'll try that today and keep them moving more.
     
  6. dmholmes

    dmholmes Senior Member

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    Yes, good description! I was trying to describe it as an infection, or a cavity feeling. But this is more accurate I think.
     
  7. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Athene,

    Lesions like these sound like an epithelial tissue breakdown often caused by mb12 deficiency. And strange as it may sound, a person can be taking hydroxyb12 and have worsening b12 deficiency symptoms as it is not the actual active b12 and doesn't work at all for about 1/3 of people and for those in whom it works at all, it is limited to about 1/3 of symptoms with other 2/3s possibly worsening. I used to have all sorts of mouth sores etc for decades. They are gone for 6 years now, since shortly after starting methylb12, one of the 5 star brands. They came back during a period on a zero star brand and cleared again when returned to a 5 star brand.
     
  8. markmc20001

    markmc20001 Guest

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    well you have done it now freddd

    Hey Freddd,

    I guess your program is catching on Freddd. Vitacost said jarrow b12 is on backorder!

    I just ordered another pallet of vitamins this morning.

    I am still sleeping better, alomost too much so some days, but better than being up all night.

    After elimnating the NAC and glutathione I am having less UTI burning and less leg pain and foot pain. DOn't quite have the same motivation/appetite I had while on the NAC and glutathione. Not as much energy and clear thought either. I am going to experiment with TMG and FUmarate next. I changed brands of the carnitine and maybe that slowing me down a bit. I'll work it out.

    I think I am heading in the right direction, but just going thru some startup though, no worries....


    Thanks
    Mark
     
  9. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Mark,

    Iherb.com has Jarrow 5mg methylb12 in stock. Don't forget the methylfolate, I had to take 4800mcg for 3 months to reverse the symptoms, appears critical in recovering from the glutathione stuff. Also 50mg doses of methylb12 and adb12 help that recovery.
     
  10. imgeha

    imgeha Guest

    Update on progress

    Just a quick update. I have now worked my way up to 10mg mB12 and 600mcg folate as well as the usual B Rights and supporting supplements. I added in the carnitine fumarate a couple of weeks ago. After two months of detox and occasional herx I was feeling increasingly better - clear head, better sleep, more optimistic, almost euphoric yesterday.

    Yesterday I added in one capsule of TMG (500mg) that I had at the back of the supplement cupboard, and today I have been flattened by a new intensity of detox. Today I feel nauseous, fluey, shaky, BIG metal taste. Unfortunately I already took another TMG capsule today - that was before I had made the connection. Hard to believe I can get such detox from one TMG capsule, but the proof is in the pudding. Guess I'll have to ride this one out...

    Freddd - can you tell me what the difference is between SAME and TMG?

    This process really is one step forward, two steps backwards.... but my improvements to date tell me that this is the way to go.

    Nicola
     
  11. dmholmes

    dmholmes Senior Member

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    Hi Nicola. Are you familiar with methylation pathway cycles? I ask because we are on similar amounts of supplements, B12 and folate are important parts of one of the cycles. But I was cautioned against TMG by Rich because it stimulates the wrong pathway in my case. Could be startup or could be you are better off without TMG.
     
  12. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Nicola,

    SAM-e is S-adenosylmethionine. It is an intermediate step between homocycteine and methionine. It is generated by taking mb12 in much small quantities than contained in a tablet. It is a methylator, sometimes called a "universal methylator" because of the large number of reactions in which it is involved. It is expensive. TMG is TriMethyGlycine. Choline is the same thing with one more methyl group. It is in molassis and is a natural product of the sugar beet. It is very inexpensive.

    The newest and most effective natural methylation enhancing compound is TMG. Commonly known as betaine**, glycine betaine, or oxyneurine, TMG is found in most microorganisms and almost all marine and fresh water invertebrates. The best known natural sources of TMG are plants from the chenopodiaceae family, namely, the sugar beet. TMG is often referred to as a quasi-vitamin because although humans and other animals can synthesize it from choline, it can't be synthesized in adequate quantities and generally needs to be included in the diet. TMG is a natural methyl donor, and is one of the phytochemicals recently extruded from plants. Metabolically, TMG is broken down into dimethylglycine (DMG) during the synthesis of the amino acid methionine from homocysteine,the main pathway for the degradation of TMG. A diet high in broccoli, spinach or beets can provide as much as a fifth or even a quarter teaspoon of TMG, just over 500 mg. In the process of extracting pure TMG from sugar beets (a process which does not use any solvents or alcohol called chromatographic separation--the best method), separates betaine based on its physical and chemical properties. There is a residue from extraction from other parts of beets. This residual is less than 1% of the resulting TMG, leaving a 99% pure product in its best and most effective form. In its natural form, TMG is a white crystal with a distinctive mildly sweet taste and aftertaste. TMG may be dissolved into juice, water or tea. http://www.arrowheadhealthworks.com/TMG.htm
    Trimethylglycine TMG (also known as betaine), and Dimethylglycine DMG, are methyl donors that help in the production of several brain chemicals and hence improve mood, energy, wellbeing, alertness, concentration, and visual clarity.
    Unless your major is college was chemistry, chances are you don’t remember learning about methyl donors. But if you find the field of mind boosting interesting, you will certainly want to learn more about these supplements. A methyl donor is simply any substance that can transfer a methyl group [a carbon atom attached to three hydrogen atoms (CH3)] to another substance. Many important biochemical processes rely on methylation, including the metabolism of lipids and DNA. Scientists suspect that adequate methylation of DNA can prevent the expression of harmful genes, such as cancer genes. It’s quite likely that our body’s ability to methylate declines with age, potentially contributing to the aging process, and therefore supplementation is an interesting idea in terms of health benefits.

    The Chemistry of DMG and Trimethylglycine
    DMG (dimethylglycine) is basically the amino acid glycine attached to two methyl groups while TMG has three methyl groups.In brief, choline (tetramethylglycine) has four methyl groups, and when it donates a methyl group it becomes Trimethylglycine and when Trimethylglycine donates a methyl group it becomes DMG. DMG, in turn, has two methyl groups left to methylate other substances in the body. Commonly these methyl groups are added to homocysteine, converting it into the amino acid methionine which is then converted to SAMe. SAMe is a nutrient available over the counter, which has been used as a powerful antidepressant. DMG plays a crucial role in the respiratory cycle of the cells, transporting oxygen and serving as a potent methyl donor. DMG acts as a building block for the synthesis of many important substances such as choline, SAM-e, the amino acid methionine, several hormones, neurotransmitters, and DNA. The formation of the neurotransmitters norepinephrine and dopamine requires a methyl group donated by SAMe. Dopamine enhances sex drive. TMG (trimethylglycine), also known as betaine, is basically the amino acid glycine attached to three methyl groups. Simply, Trimethylglycine has one more methyl group than DMG.
    Trimethylglycine Recommendations
    Trimethylglycine and DMG are underutilized nutrients that hold a great deal of promise but unfortunately, few doctors are familiar with these nutrients. At this time the clinical uses of Trimethylglycine and DMG are not well defined and whether they would be helpful in the therapy of Alzheimer and Parkinson’s disease is not known. Since the body’s ability to methylate declines with age, supplements of Trimethylglycine or DMG in small amounts, such as 50 to 100 mg a day, may benefit middle aged and older individuals. I recommend not exceeding 250 mg of Trimethylglycine or DMG on a daily basis until more is known about these supplements. Your dose of Trimethylglycine and DMG should be reduced if you are taking B vitamins, SAMe, DMAE, or choline since all of these nutrients have overlapping functions.
    Trimethylglycine Research
    Trimethylglycine (Betaine) supplementation decreases plasma homocysteine concentrations but does not affect body weight, body composition, or resting energy expenditure in human subjects.
    Am J Clin Nutr. 2002 Nov;76(5):961-7.
    Betaine ( trimethylglycine ) is found in several tissues in humans. It is involved in homocysteine metabolism as an alternative methyl donor and is used in the treatment of homocystinuria in humans. In pigs, trimethylglycine decreases the amount of adipose tissue. The aim of the study was to examine the effect of trimethylglycine supplementation on body weight, body composition, plasma homocysteine concentrations, blood pressure, and serum total and lipoprotein lipids. DESIGN: Forty-two obese, white subjects (14 men, 28 women) treated with a hypoenergetic diet were randomly assigned to a trimethylglycine-supplemented group (6 g/d) or a control group given placebo for 12 wk. The intervention period was preceded by a 4-wk run-in period with a euenergetic diet. RESULTS: Body weight, resting energy expenditure, and fat mass decreased significantly in both groups with no significant difference between the groups. Plasma homocysteine concentrations decreased in the trimethylglycine group. Diastolic blood pressure decreased without a significant difference between the groups. Serum total and LDL-cholesterol concentrations were higher in the trimethylglycine group than in the control group. CONCLUSION: A hypoenergetic diet with trimethylglycine supplementation (6 g daily for 12 wk) decreased the plasma homocysteine concentration but did not affect body composition more than a hypoenergetic diet without trimethylglycine supplementation did.
    http://www.raysahelian.com/trimethylglycine.html


    Sam-e is definitely a critical cofactor not replaced by anything else for some people. It can be critical in getting the systems funtioning again and can trigger large rounds of healing

    I've been back and forth on the issue of whether TMG is one of the critical cofactors as opposed to a simple cofactor. It seems to be "critical" for some people. For some, it is the breakthrough supplement that gets things going and breaks through logjams allowing healing to happen that haden't happened before. In the people for who it is a critical cofactor there are often large startup reactions.

    I choose to continue the word "startup" because it denotes the timing so well. Also, the startup symptoms appear to be self-limiting. I have noticed that those who choose to user the word "startup" tend to have shorter less severe reaction periods than those who apply "detox" to the symptoms. Startup symptoms may indeed include "detox" symptoms and as the toxins flush from the body or are chemically changed the problem leaves. Those who do a start and stop approach appear to have long drawn out problems repeating the same unplesant steps over and over agian and not getting past them for long durations. There is a lot of fear wrapped up in the assumptions of "detox". Fear and anxiety make any of these startup reactions worse.

    In my experience with a lot of people those who continue to press on ahead, regardless of pace, get through it. Titration can work in that. But stopping and starting appears to be a strategy that doesn't work because one becomes stuck in the very worst steps.

    In mystical voyaging there are "places" where there is a strong urge to vomit. Those who continue through undistracted don't vomit. Those who bail and stop right there where the effects are worst, vomit. I had one man vomit perhaps 50 times, each time he tried to make it through and each time stopping because he had the inherent fear of "if I continue it will keep getting worse and worse" instead of realizing that it was already as bad as it gets and the next steps get better. It can be like that at each spritual "initiation" threshold. If fear takes hold the person gets stuck at the worst possible places, and it can happen over and over. It also can happen with these nutritional supplements in a similar way. They have a peak effect and more doesn't make it worse after the peak effect is reached. What "more" does is do it faster and reach the turnaround faster. I experienced that over and over and have observed it over and over.


    Unfortunately I already took another TMG capsule today - that was before I had made the connection. Hard to believe I can get such detox from one TMG capsule, but the proof is in the pudding. Guess I'll have to ride this one out...


    I would say fortunately instead of unfortunately. First, it may just be coincidental. Second consider this. Many things have the most effect in the first small increment and each additional increment adds less effect. So the first 125mg can have a huge effect, 250mg a small increment, 500mg only slightly more and 1000mg makes no noticable difference over 500mg. Additionally, most of these effects are short lived, happening only until the "empty" spot is filled up. With TMG the time to empty is less than a week in many people so the same intial step with the same unpleasantness can be repeated over and over because one never gets past that intial filling up step, the functions that TMG plays never get full started and stable.

    So perhaps the thing to do is to back off to 250mg until stable, and that might be within a few days after 2 days of 500mg, and then up it to 500mg after that which might have very little additional effect. However, if you are getting the flu for instance, you will have that experience whatever you do with TMG.

    Consider carefully your assumptions and your actions. I have found over and over that some of these things that work the best are counter-intuitive.


    This process really is one step forward, two steps backwards.... but my improvements to date tell me that this is the way to go.


    It certainly can be. However, I don't consider startup reactions to be steps backwards. If you have, as an arbitray number, 1000 units of "detox" to do, and 10 units (again arbitrary number) are sufficient to be miserable, then it could take 100 such instances to get through if done minimally. If 100 units is no more miserable then it would take 10 instances to get through. I found over and over that more of the supplement in question brought the unpleasantness to completion faster and when it ended it was always very quick. I went through all sorts of things for 9 months, and when the fog cleared I was able to discontinue most of the medications being used to control symptoms no longer present. I was able to discontinue 100% dilantin (tapered) (many are on neurontin instead now), compazine suppositories 100%, albuterol 100%, 90% of valium(tapered), 90% of lorazapam (tapered), 100% of ibuprofen 2400mg/day, 100% of another asthma med I can't remember the name of, 100% of provigil, 100% of antihistamines, and 40% of morphine.

    Only small amounts of brainfog and fatigue remained to be dealt with as I added some addtional cofactors over the next several years. At 9 months I no longer could be diagnosed with CFS or FMS as most of the symptoms were gone or dramatically reduced. I was able to sensibly and progressively exercise and it wasn't nearly so easy to overdo.

    After that point, the only steps backwards are when I have discontinued something that worked or took glutathione precursors. That brought back direct b12 and folate deficiency symptoms and not the CFS/FMS ones though they may have eventiually returned if I continued for a year or something.

    Good luck. Consider carefully what you are doing and try to keep taking forward steps, even if small.

    One thing I would like to say that one of thje quotes mentions. As one includes SAM-e, choline, methylfolate and methylb12 and changes quantities, the amount of the other factors might need to be rebalanced/. For instance, at first I needed 400mg of SAM-e, b ut after starting TMG and methylfolate, I only needed 200mg of SAM-e. More didn't make a difference. Same with TMG. I went up to 1000mg originally as that made a difference but after methylfolate, only 500mg made a difference.
     
  13. Sunday

    Sunday Senior Member

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    question for Freddd

    Freddd, thanks for this useful info which helps putting the pieces together.

    It may be brainfog making it difficult for me to grasp, or it may just be my brain in general, but I'm finding myself confused about how to practically apply the idea that, after startup, bumping the dose up a lot won't be any more disturbing than bumping it up a little.

    Maybe it's because my own experience seems to refute that. I added methylfolate 3 weeks ago; a week later I upped my mb12 from 2 mg to 3. (This was the biggest dose uppage of mb12 I'd done; before that, I was bumping it up by thirds and halves of a tablet). Before making these changes it was a somewhat bumpy ride but I was getting some chunks of time where I was a human being and feeling definite improvements. But since adding the methylfolate I've felt like crap on toast, and upping the mb12 made it worse. I did have about 15 hours where I felt good but then I added l-carnitine fumarate and am back to toast spread, which pretty well describes the consistency of my body and brain and the moment. And my feelings.

    I have every intention of keeping on with this, but from a subjective point of view, I am feeling worse and worse and being less and less functional, which is discouraging. The objective factor which shows improvement is the foot and hand neuropathy; before b12, any time symptoms kicked up, so would the foot neuropathy. That isn't happening now, and I'm pretty sure my feet are getting more sensitive and flexible. But every other symptom is going pretty much full bore, especially fatigue and nausea.

    Since I'm meant to travel at Christmas and bedrest wasn't significantly improving my ability to function, I went to my acupuncturist, who gave me a set of points he uses for people coming out of stroke. After recuperating from the aftershock, that did make me a bit clearer and able to walk and talk some, but only a very little and by lying down in between. I still basically feel like toast spread. Do I just have to assume I will feel this way for the next 4 months, or is there something I can do about it?
     
  14. imgeha

    imgeha Guest

    Hi Freddd

    I hear what you're saying, and have already experienced what you say, certainly in terms of titrating the mB12. The first 5mg were the most difficult, but I had no problem between 5 -10mg. Methylfolate the same.

    I guess you could argue my detox was in fact start-up - they seem to be one and the same thing for some people, especially the mercury-toxic ones.

    I have stopped the TMG - as my adrenals were telling me it was too much at this time. I will revisit it again soon, maybe at a lower dose.

    If SAME and TMG are both methyldonors, could I expect a similar reaction from SAME? And I thought the methylfolate was rocket fuel for me!!

    thanks again

    Nicola
     
  15. winston

    winston Senior Member

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    B12

    Sunday, I was wondering how you were doing. I am on my fourth try of doing this B12 protocol. I went on wrong diagnosis and soycoffee gave me a slow start up. One week so far just on B-Right and of course I have nausea thats why I keep quitting the Bs. I take dramamine when I go to bed and it is helping. Next week I start Folate. I don't know what else to do I feel so bad all the symptoms are back maybe worse. I have shaky anxiety I have to take medication for every 3 hours, did not have that before. Please check your personal message.

    Lena
     
  16. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Nicola,

    Let's look at quantity. TMG is low molecular weight and each moelecule has 1 or two methyl groups that can eventually be used and a larghe amount is taken, say 500mg. SAM-e has one and a somewhat larger molecule but is also taken in the hundreds of mgs. Mb12 and methylfolate each have one methyl group. Mb12 is a large molecule and the methyl group is about 1.4% of the molecular mass and is taken at about 1/100 the rate of SAM-e and TMG. Methylfolate is also taken at 1/100 the rate of SAM-e and TMG.

    Of a 5mg sublingual approximately 1mg makes it into serum and 99% is excreted unchanged within 24 hours or less.

    How all that adds up I really don't know. However, peoples reactions are not strictly proportionate to how many methyl groups are brought to the table. That can be demonstrated by the people who have positively HUGE reactions to mb12 after their methylation capacity is already built up. The primary effect of mb12 is all the reactions it participates is as vitamin b12, not strictly speaking as a methyl donor since it supplies such a tiny amount of the total methyl group picture. People with plenty of methyl groups have been floored by basically 150mcg of mb12. A lot of that, especially where abnormal fatigue is present, is in the mb12 being converted to adb12 and taking a seat in the mitochondria and starting up the ATP cycle if they haven't taken adb12 first. 150mcg of adb12 is enough to boost the energy output of the body 6 fold in 1 hour. That is enough to floor anybody. 150mcg of mb12 is enough to start healing processes in every tissue of the body putting a large strain on all other resources. Focusing on methylation reactions and detox misses 99% of the picture with active b12s.
     
  17. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Sunday,


    Going from 2mg to 3 mg of sublingual (300-450 injected) is still in the area of largest increases. Up to about 1 mg injected (5mg sublingual) makes a big difference. Then from there on up is usually a rather obvious falloff.

    I added l-carnitine fumarate and am back to toast spread, which pretty well describes the consistency of my body and brain and the moment. And my feelings.

    The l-carnitine fumarate aids adb12 in activating the mitochondria to make ATP. Once the mitochondria reach a high level of saturation and efficiency and your body adjusts to 6-7 times as much energy being produced by each mitochondria the symptoms will fall off. The saturation happens quickly, the adjustment to the change happens more slowly. However, I did find that TMG did moderate this effect to a significant degree. I found that 75% of the total effect of the l-carnitine fumarate was in the first 125mg.

    Good luck.
     
  18. Christopher

    Christopher Senior Member

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    I simply cannot read all 75 pages of posts on this thread. Can I assume that the entirety of Fredd's protocol is detailed on the second post of the thread?

    Thanks.
     
  19. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Christopher,

    The second post is essentially the entire thing. Elsewhere there is a complete list of symtoms, the 4 ZONES of b12 healing and additional material explaining some of the dosage ranges, balancing and other items. If you go into personal stories you will find my original posts from which Cort derived the first two posts on here, organized somewhat differently plus symptoms and ZONES. The ZONES may be helpful.
     
  20. Christopher

    Christopher Senior Member

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    Thanks, I appreciate it.
     

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