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B-12 - The Hidden Story

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Cort, Jul 26, 2009.

  1. _Kim_

    _Kim_ Guest

    Freddd,

    Thanks for the step-by-step advice. I am already taking most of the basics and I'll add the few that I'm missing. Mostly, I'm wondering if I can start taking the Rx Carnitor (l-carnitine) at the same time that I start the ALA.

    Also wondering if low carnitine indicates a B12 deficiency?

    Thanks,
    Kim
     
  2. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Kim,

    Also wondering if low carnitine indicates a B12 deficiency?

    Not of which I am aware. However, low carntine can prevent adb12 from being effective as they work together.

    if I can start taking the Rx Carnitor (l-carnitine) at the same time that I start the ALA.

    Yes, but it may make the adb12 startup MUCH more intense.
     
  3. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Beginning to suspect an Arginine/mb12 interaction

    I am beginning to suspect an effect of Arginine, an amino acid, on methylb12 effectiveness; at least at the CSF/CNS level as concerns nerve function and my feet.

    The various statements concerning b12 and it's interaction with NO, by Carmine Wheatly in her scarlet pimpernel papers and other places. While these and other papers dealt almost exclusively with hydroxyb12, mb12 is more reactive. It is also known that N2O, nitrous oxide is combines with active methylcobalamin at the very least and disables it in the process causing quickly induced deficiency symptoms as does glutathione.

    Arginine takes 2 methylgroups from metyhylb12 in being converted to dimethylarginine, a useful form. In doing so it appears to disable mb12, disabling 2 molecules of mb12 for each one of arginine so a little arginine can disable a lot of mb12. So maybe a very little arginine is good but too much disables mb12 inducing deficiency?

    Anyway, I'm looking to see if anybody has noticed any effects. It's not as blatent as the glut effects but I believe I am seeing such. I will know more in a few days. However, there is a mechanism not even needing NO as an explanation.
     
  4. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    Hi, Freddd.

    According to the published literature, dimethylarginine is formed by methylation of arginine residues within proteins by a family of enzymes called protein arginine methyltransferases. The methyl donor in these reactions is S-adenosylmethionine (SAMe), rather than methylcobalamin.

    While there is not a direct reaction with methylcobalamin to remove its methyl group and donate it to arginine, there is a competitive situation, because SAMe is also used to methylate cobalamin by means of the enzyme methionine synthase reductase.

    Note that according to the literature, arginine is not methylated unless it is part of a protein molecule.

    Best regards,

    Rich
     
  5. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Rich,

    Well, SAM-e is also caused by taking methylb12 in the first place. The only reason this has come up is that it appears to make a difference on only my pivot point symptoms, the ones that are barely going the right direction and are hypersensitive to reversal. The assumptions you appear to be making don't appear to apply in this specific situation. In this case, the numbness of my feet is the pivot point symptom. 10mg mb12 SC 3x per day (7.5mg 4x per day works, less than 7.5mg does not) reverses the numbness. It is sensitive to many problems; too much exposure to light for the mb12, glutathione precursors, unknown causes of a batch that just isn't up to snuff and now arginine. The arginine doesn't have anywhere near as strong or quick of an effect as the glutathione precursors which start hard deficiency within hours. This is more subtle taking weeks to be really sure and no other symptoms affected, so I'm just trying to understand how this could be happening. However, going the other direction the problem starts correcting with the first missed dose of arginine. A reduction in the effective potentcy of the mb12 by 33-40% would be all it takes to cause that.

    So remember, I am in a situation of having a sizable though temporary supply of unbound mb12 on which the neurological effect is dependent. Perhaps the question is how does arginine reduce that sizable but minimum sufficient quantity of unbound mb12. If you can shed any light on it I would appeciate it.
     
  6. Sunday

    Sunday Senior Member

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    Thanks David for describing your brain-fog-lift. Must have been lovely. Mine hasn't followed your pattern, but I have a functioning brain more often and when I do have brain fog I haven't so far gone back to the really really bad stages of it.

    Thanks Kim and Freddd: I was just about to ask Freddd whether it would be better to start with the folate or the l-carnitine first. After a month (approximately) on this regimen, I am taking 2 3mg sublinguals of adb12 a day, plus 2 1,000 mcg sublinguals of methlyb12 (taken 1/2 at a time). I am still having some wacky symptoms - occasional twitches of my liver, spleen or gallbladder; still some orthostatic intolerance, though it's better; the occasional racing heart (glad there have been a few comments about that here since it would be scarier otherwise) being really really tired (but in a way that's slightly different than former crashes; it feels more like being really really tired as I would be after exertion when I was healthy, rather than a crash). I'm not sure if more methylb12 would be better at this point, or if it's time to move on to the co-factors.

    I'd say that in the last month I've gone from being sort of functional about 5 days out of 15 to being sort of functional 3 days out of 5, a big plus. Also I'd say that I'm absorbing my food differently (better). I can lift a few heavy things without having to rest for the remainder of the day. I've started exercising just a little bit more (like two 5-minute walks a day instead of one) and I noticed that I actually had a spring in my step, unconsciously, on that second walk. Having any spring in anything has not been a noticeable feature in my life in the last few years, so that's welcome. I'm hopeful about this B12 thing.
     
  7. dmholmes

    dmholmes Senior Member

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    Great to hear your progress! I'm on 3 5mg mb12s, but I wish they were the same flavor as the 1mg. Those are much easier on my mouth. I believe B-Right makes my palpitations worse, so I'm not taking it at the moment. Hope to find a B complex that doesn't do that.
     
  8. Sunday

    Sunday Senior Member

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    David, I wonder which element in the B-Right gives you the palpitations? Is there a place where you can look up the various s&s for vitamin B/cofactor reactions? I can understand why you'd want to avoid palpitations, they kind of creep me out, but I don't have them a lot and they don't last long. I can't remember: are you using CoQ10? I know that is recommended for a lot of heart things (including by at least two cardiologists). Don't know if that would help, but it might...any other opinions?

    I'm not madly looking forward to "graduating" to the cherry-flavored 5 mg mb12s, but willing to suffer in order to get a life back. Helpful to know what dosages people are taking, I'm not sure whether to bump up at this point or not.
     
  9. Sunday

    Sunday Senior Member

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    Lena, I'm so glad you found a good combination for yourself. Your progress is educational for me, and I also feel as if we're sort of on the same team; when any one who posts here feels better, it makes me feel as if we're all making progress. And if you can find a good balance with your supplements after some difficulty, maybe I can, too.

    I forgot to mention that one of the reactions on this past week's menu has been a hellacious case of eczema, which I used to get under stress. After a series of liver cleanses and by using some topical apps, it mostly went away. Now I'm thinking about something Freddd posted a while back, on how people tend to "go backwards" through their symptoms. Since skin diseases are closely related to the nervous system (and obviously the liver), I can't help wondering if there might be some tie-in to the CFS here, some warning sign or beginning symptom of b12 deficiency.
     
  10. Sunday

    Sunday Senior Member

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    Freddd, my understanding in this area is really tiny (Dr. Science level), but in case this gives you a useful clue: I was just talking with a Lymie friend about arginine-rich foods: she's trying to avoid them because she has a herpes outbreak and they are supposed to exacerbate that. What she needs is lysine-rich foods to counteract the arginine. I realize the chemistry has more variables in your case, but is there any chance that adding lysine to the equation could help?
     
  11. dmholmes

    dmholmes Senior Member

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    I haven't looked up the side-effects for each B-Right ingredient, but it sounds worthwhile. Freddd has cautioned against CoQ10, so I don't use it.

    The cherry flavor of the 5mg doesn't bother me, but it seems to have a grittier texture than the 1mg. If I put it in the lower side of my mouth it tends to leave my mouth dry there later on. I'll wake up with that area feeling very dry during the night.

    It could be beneficial to know what dosages others are on, perhaps we could post that info once in a while? I'm currently taking:

    10,000 IU A (1)
    5mg mb12 (3)
    3mg adb12 (2)
    1g C (2)
    2,000 IU D3 (1)
    400 IU E (1)
    800mcg methylfolate (1)
    700mg EPA Ultimate (1)
    Ther-biotic probiotic (1)
    VitalzymX (4)
     
  12. dmholmes

    dmholmes Senior Member

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    The fatigue has been returning the last few days. Seems to hit when I take the mb12. Not sure if something is depleted, but really makes me sleepy.
     
  13. DrD

    DrD

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    Does anyone know if there is any way to get in contact with Jarrow's regarding the cherry flavor. I have to take tons of the 1mg ones, because I have some strange reaction to the cherry flavor of the 5mgs.(rosacea flares). I know it is not the amount of b12 itself, because i tolerate a 7.5mg methyl injection very very well. Anyways, I will give the cherries another try......
     
  14. _Kim_

    _Kim_ Guest

    I am going to be starting the B-12 protocol soon - I have rosacea too and I'll see if I react like that to the 5mgs.
     
  15. SoyCoffee

    SoyCoffee Guest

    Kim, I have rosacea also. I started the active B-12 protocol five weeks ago. Aside from some minor warmth, without redness, at startup (first two weeks), my rosacea has been very quiet. I am now taking 4 of the Jarrow 5000 mcg (5 mg) tablets sublingually.
    Much success with the protocol,
    SoyCoffee
     
  16. _Kim_

    _Kim_ Guest

    That's good to know SoyCoffee (great name btw). I can handle a little warmth if that's the worst of it. Are you noticing any symptomatic improvement from the B-12 protocol?

    ETA - I just noticed that was your first post here. Thanks for taking the time to do so. And welcome aboard! :)
     
  17. imgeha

    imgeha Guest

    The heart and B12?

    So, some improvements and some weird things to report. I have been doing the active B12 protocol for about 6 weeks. The big symptoms I want to lose are orthostatic tachycardia and burning mouth syndrome. So far, there has been some erratic progress on the tachycardia, but obviously it's early days.

    About two years ago I developed a sharp pain in the heart area. I thought it was angina, which is apparently common with mercury toxicity (which I have), but, as a non-smoking, normal weight woman in my early forties I was still freaked. I upped my magnesium, which helped a little, but eventually went to the doctor to get it checked out. He found no problem, but prescribed some benzo-crap, which I never took. I put myself on 300mg / day of COQ10, and the pain went completely within 2-3 days.

    Fast forward to 6 weeks ago. On the B12s my blood pressure rose to 130/85, just as Freddd said it would. So I cut out the COQ10. Within a few days the sharp pain (which I had almost forgotten) came back. Freaked again, I reinstated 100mg / day COQ10, and the pain went again. A week later I checked my blood pressure, and found it was still high. So I dropped the COQ10 again, and this time the pain stayed away. All throughout this time I was taking 3mg of the methyl B12.

    In the past few days I have found 3mg / day of the mB12 too much. It has kickstarted methylation and I have been having some heavy detox days, with a big metal mouth, and feeling crappy. So for the last 3 days I have dropped the mB12 down to 2mg / day to ease up the detox a little. Then this afternoon I started feeling very cold, in a cold sweat, and then suddenly the heart pain came back again. What does this mean? Could the recurrence of the heart pain be due to lower B12 levels? It seems to me that they are definitely linked. Does B12 act on the heart muscle? Is deficiency the cause of the orthostatic tachycardia? Anyone know?

    thanks

    Nicola
     
  18. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    To Nicola re: Co Q10 and methylation

    Hi, Nicola.

    I'll offer a few comments in response to your experience and your question, for what they are worth.

    First, the synthesis of Co Q10 in the body requires methylation. In CFS, people commonly are found to have partial blocks in their methylation cycle, using the Vitamin Diagnostics methylation pathways panel. In the GD-MCB hypothesis, the reason for the deficit in Co Q10 in CFS is the partial methylation cycle block. This also accounts for deficits in a variety of other important substances, including carnitine, choline, and creatine, and many other effects as well.

    So I think that your observation that by supplementing B12, you no longer needed to supplement Co Q10, can be explained by improvement in the operation of the methylation cycle. When you dropped your B12 intake, you may have lowered your methylation capacity and also lowered the rate of production of Co Q-10.

    The main role of Co Q10 in the cells of the body is in coupling the Krebs cycle to the respiratory chain, which is responsible for most of the ATP production in cells.

    Co Q10 is particularly important in the heart muscle cells, because of their high, continuous requirement for ATP to power the contractions of the heart muscle. Dr. Cheney has reported finding diastolic dysfunction in the hearts of most (or maybe all) of his CFS patients. The cause of diastolic dysfunction is too low a rate of production of ATP, which prevents the heart muscle from relaxing fast enough to allow enough blood to enter the left ventricle (the main chamber of the heart) in the time before the next contraction. This lowers the cardiac output, and affects the body in general.

    The following is also part of the GD-MCB hypothesis: Improving the operation of the methylation cycle in a person in whom it has been partially blocked for a long time will cause the immune system and the detox system to come back into more normal operation, and begin working on the backlogs of infections and toxins that have accumulated during this time. The result is mobilization of toxins into the bloodstream, which bathes all the cells of the body. This can result in a variety of unpleasant symptoms until these backlogs are cleared.

    With regard to the POTS (orthostatic tachycardia), in the GD-MCB hypothesis, this is caused in CFS by a combination of low cardiac output and HPA axis dysfunction.

    The low cardiac output in turn results from the diastolic dysfunction, and also from a low total blood volume, which decreases the venous return to the heart (the rate at which blood is returned to the heart from the body). The low total blood volume in turn is caused by diabetes insipidus (not the same as diabetes mellitus, which involves blood sugar and insulin). the diabetes mellitus is caused by insufficient rate of production of antidiuretic hormone by the hypothalamus. This causes the kidneys to dump too much water into the urine, and though the person is thirsty and drinks a lot of fluids, they don't keep up with this loss, so the total blood volume goes below normal.

    The HPA axis dysfunction is caused by insufficient production of ACTH by the pituitary, which causes the adrenals to secrete insufficient amounts of cortisol. The adrenals normally control the circulatory system, and adjust the distribution of blood flow when a person stands up. When cortisol is insufficient, epinephrine steps in to rescue the situation. That's what causes the tachycardia. It's an effort to maintain sufficient blood flow to the brain in the presence of low total cardiac output and poor control of distribution, which can cause blood pooling in the legs.

    I hope this is helpful.

    Rich
     
  19. winston

    winston

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    B12

    Hi Fredd, I am in trouble! I started back on the mb12 1/4 tablet of 5mg last Wednesday after being off of it for 3 days. Had a lot of anxiety starting back. Sunday started 1/2 tablet of adb12 and my anxiety is off the charts yesterday and today. I am on 2 B-right a day. I don't know what to do, if I go off all of the B's I get really sick and severe jumpy legs and severe anxiety. This has happened both times I went off and as soon as I put a little mb12 under my lip I feel better. Do you think I have a B12 deficiency? What am I going to do? Please help me.

    Lena
     
  20. imgeha

    imgeha Guest

    Hi Rich

    wow. Thanks for that really comprehensive answer. I understand it better now. Do you think the POTS will ultimately be cured with proper methylation and lots of mB12? I understand that the adrenals play a key role here, but I am puzzled because I am on full adrenal hormone replacement (prednisolone and Florinef) - at higher doses than most, and it doesn't appear to have any effect on the POTS, which is worst in the mornings, when I have taken my adrenal support for the day. The tachycardia eased when my blood pressure was higher from the combination of mB12 and CoQ10 - I could stand with a normal heart rate without feeling panicky and like I had to sit down all the time - but why would high blood pressure ease the POTS?

    Any insight would be great. POTS is so frustrating to live with, and I am probably more high functioning than most.

    thanks again

    Nicola
     

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