Invest in ME Conference 12: First Class in Every Way
OverTheHills wraps up our series of articles on this year's 12th Invest in ME International Conference (IIMEC12) in London with some reflections on her experience as a patient attending the conference for the first time.
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B-12 - The Hidden Story

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Cort, Jul 26, 2009.

  1. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Beckster,

    I would say that for most people most of the time 800mcg is entirely satisfactory. I did well on that until the glutathione precursor trial. I'm on more but plan to start decreasing in another 2 weeks.

    On the L-carnitine fumarate 125mg is quite possibly a good amount to start with. It can be very energetic in reaction. It works with the adb12. Of course you may not have a shortage there and then it will do nothing. For me at least 500mg once a day 30 minutes before food is as good as it gets.

    Good to here things are going well.

    Don't forget that exercise is an important part of recovery. Start increasing as soon as exercise tolerance developes. Start low and slow and increase slowly. Recovery can take longer than healing.
     
  2. aquariusgirl

    aquariusgirl Senior Member

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    Yasko RNAs for brain inflammation

    In answer to your question, dreambirdie, I get the yasko RNAs from www.holisticheal.com.. her sales website.

    They are v. expensive....$85 a bottle,but when my brain is on fire I don't care.. I just want sthg to put the blaze out.

    If there were anything safe and cheaper I would certainly be interested...maybe aspirin would do the trick? Never thought of that. Duh.

    and yes, beating myself up is not very helpful, but I'm kind of wondering if all that detox finished off my adrenals. They are just not putting out hardly any cortisol at all any more..

    I wonder if they can come back at this point. I don't like the thought of being on cortisol replacement for life.
     
  3. aquariusgirl

    aquariusgirl Senior Member

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    how much methylfolate????

    Are people really taking 800 mcg of L 5 methyl tetrahydrofolate..aka Folapro...?

    I was going to say (with a horrified look on my face) that that's an awful lot of Folapro for a PWC to take until I realised I took that much for about a year or so .....

    But then that's one of the reasons why I think my adrenals are in such bad shape now and why I'm so freakin' fat!!

    I think I was kinda reckless when I first started doing methylation support and I took too high doses of stuff over a long period of time and it exacerbated my chronic hypoglycemia and really wreaked havoc on my adrenals.

    This is my impression. I wasn't monitoring thryoid or adrenals during that period of time.. which I kind of regret now, so I'm just conjecturing...but I'm pretty sure that's what happened.

    Looking back, I should have taken smaller doses, more breaks, and did more supportive things like saunas, small amounts of glutathione ..etc.

    Or, maybe I should have got my viral and metal load down and then finished up with methylation support like the paracelsus doc suggested.

    When you've dug a hole this deep, it's hard to know which way is up sometimes..
     
  4. jenbooks

    jenbooks Guest

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    Thanks for all this input on methylation and chelation. Like DB, I can't even begin to think about DMSA (or DMPS or other chelators). It freaks me a little that DB had such a metal dump--and it sounds like while the body was dumping the metals, it was redistributed somewhat and toxic. That sounds to me like something the body would not do if it could choose therefore I think on some level the active b12s (adenysol for DB and methyl for many) actually PUSH the body. Think about it--nature doesn't make bottles with concentrated forms. These are in a sense pro-drugs. So we have to be careful. I am grateful for all the input as I will try to be extremely careful and start so very slow.

    I also find it a bit depressing that we're so loaded up with metals. I do think they will discover over time that the bacteria and maybe fungus sequester the metals, thus making us more toxic than we would be.

    DB what form of chlorophyll do you take? And whoever mentioned charcoal--does that actually help heavy metal detox?

    Aquarius Girl I do the same to myself--I get upset with myself for overdoing salt/c for 4 days. Though I may have been cajoled and convinced by folks who were not able to be honest, still, my severe MCS today is a direct result of that and I'll never know why. In the end it was me who put it down my own throat so to speak. We just don't anticipate that what regular people can handle, we can't. And then of course we lament because the consequences may be permanent. Who knows...
     
  5. Sushi

    Sushi Moderator and Senior Member Albuquerque

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    Thallium

    Hi Dreambirdie,

    I also have very high levels of thallium. I know where I got it! I took 2 thallium stress tests (cardio). They said the stuff would be out of the system in 48 hours and it was non-toxic. My present doctor now confirms that she is finding high levels of thallium years later in patients who had thallium stress tests.

    Guess what? Thallium (according to Genova Labs) blocks the body's ability to assimilate riboflavin--B2. I test very low on B2 and its active coenzymes. There fore I now take sublingual, coenzymated B2 by Source Naturals. It does the job for you.

    Have you had your B2 and its coenzymes FAD & FMN tested? They are necessary for a whole lot of biochemical reactions. It was Rich Van Konynenburg that pointed out my low B2 and suggested taking the coenzymated form.

    Sushi
     
  6. Dreambirdie

    Dreambirdie work in progress

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    Well FREAKING BEJEEZUS Sushi! :eek::eek::eek:

    What next!? I have never even had a thallium stress test. And no I haven't had the B2 tested, or the enzymes, but I will consider it now. ($$$ is the problem of course)

    There's always something! :mad::p:rolleyes:

    I am glad that it is coming out in my poop. Better out then in!
     
  7. Dreambirdie

    Dreambirdie work in progress

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    Hi Jenbooks--

    I take liquid chlorophyll made by World Organic. When I am real toxic, I take a tablespoon in water every hour. Along with N-A-C and Vit C. It does the trick to clear the poison, but not nearly as fast as I want. I also used fruit pectin, which my ND recommended. I will add the charcoal next time I get into detox trouble. (I can't afford an $80 supplement by Yasko. :eek:where do people get off charging this much money!)

    Since the metals were coming out in my poop, I don't think most of them were being re-distributed. It was hellish to go thru, but I felt fine after the detox was over. So that tells me that no serious "damage" was done in the process. Still, my goal is to do the "kindler gentler version" of methylation, the one that will hopefully bypass the arrhythmias and gasping for air.
     
  8. Dreambirdie

    Dreambirdie work in progress

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    Freddd--

    I paint with acrylics and often use the Prussian Blue. Are you suggesting I eat the pigment? :p:p:p

    I eat garlic often, so I couldn't tell the difference btwn that and an arsenic detox.

    I think the most important thing I have learned here is that MY BODY KNOWS what's going on. I suspected the adB12 (and possibly the B Right) caused the metal detox. And in fact IT DID. I know now that B12 is very effective at getting the toxic metals out, so effective that it disrupts my entire nervous system in the process.
    AND last but not least, because of the above, I know that I need to take it MUCH SLOWER with MUCH LOWER doses.
     
  9. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Dreambirdie,

    There is very pure pharmaceutical grade prussian blue used for detoxing thallium. It's licensed for that usage in the European Union and was in process in the USA a few years ago. It works as an ion exchange medium in your intestines as prussian blue isn't absorbed and pulls the thallium in presumably swapping an iron atom. It also pulls out cesuium and some others.

    Prussian blue in medicine
    Prussian blue's ability to incorporate cations that have one unit of positive charge makes it useful as a sequestering agent for certain heavy-metals ions. Pharmaceutical-grade Prussian blue in particular is used for patients who have ingested thallium or radioactive cesium. According to the International Atomic Energy Agency, an adult male can eat at least 10 grams of Prussian blue per day without any serious harm. The U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) has determined that the "500 mg Prussian blue capsules, when manufactured under the conditions of an approved New Drug Application (NDA), can be found safe and effective therapy" in certain poisoning cases.[12] Radiogardase (Prussian blue insoluble capsules) is a commercial product for the removal of cesium-137 from the bloodstream.[13]
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prussian_blue

    http://www.americanheart.org/presenter.jhtml?identifier=4743
    What is a thallium stress test? [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    This is a type of nuclear scanning test or myocardial perfusion (mi"o-KAR'de-al per-FU'zhun) imaging test. It shows how well blood flows to the heart muscle. It's usually done along with an exercise stress test on a treadmill or bicycle.
    The thallium stress test is useful to determine:
    • Extent of a coronary artery blockage
    • Prognosis of patients who've suffered a heart attack
    • Effectiveness of cardiac procedures done to improve circulation in coronary arteries
    • Cause(s) of chest pain
    • Level of exercise that a patient can safely perform
     
  10. imgeha

    imgeha Guest

     
  11. jenbooks

    jenbooks Guest

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    Nicola

    Hi Nicola. About fifteen years ago, pre-lyme and in a much healthier state, I did a 50 mg DMSA provocative chelation and then one more 50 mg pill. I stopped because I got kidney aches that lasted for months. In addition, I had to drop my IV vitamin C that I was getting weekly, from 25 cc to 6-8 cc because I would get nauseous. After that tooth problems started to crop up. I have never been able to return to the prior level of Vitamin C.

    Considering that on another thread we were discussing how the homeopathic remedies of a Dr. Y made me very ill and put another person in a total relapse bedridden on oxygen 24/7, some people have to heed any danger signal and be very careful.

    Six milligrams may have been the right starting point for you, but for all I know now even 1 milligram would redistribute mercury in a way that would be highly toxic to me and I'm sick now in a very different way than before the tickbite in 2000.

    It isn't worth the risk. I have been told enough times, "Don't worry, just start slow" (with salt/c as well--after 4 days of which I was debilitated for the better part of a year and which caused me to go overnight from moderate very liveable MCS to severe MCS that is perhaps my worst symptom and very very constricting and disrupting--and has never gone away). If there is a chance of irreversible harm, and I already experienced very bad effects with DMSA, I'm not going to try it again.
     
  12. froufox

    froufox Senior Member

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    Aquariusgirl and Jenbooks, I too can relate to having regrets and beating myself up over bad decisions, its hard not too sometimes when the result has been serious repurcussions for your health. One big mistake I made was going vegan following the advice of a herbalist. I ended up going downhill quite fast and the next 3 & 1/2 yrs were pretty much a nightmare as I lost a lot of weight, developed severe MCS and couldnt tolerate any foods whatsoever and was thought to be anorexic. Of course I am angry with her (she wouldnt work with me unless i switched to a mostly raw vegan diet) but ultimately I am responsible. It is so easy to give away your power when you are so desperate for help.

    Then 3 yrs ago I took hydrocortisone for 6 months after listening to others and being convinced that it was the right thing to do at the time... I feel it suppressed my immune system too much as my adrenals completely crashed when I weaned off... it felt like the infections had gone wild.. my cortisol levels dropped to below the ref range which has massively slowed down my recovery. That has been very hard to come to terms with.

    So like you Aquariusgirl I have big problems with my adrenals. However in my case it seems that they are not completely whacked as although my saliva cortisol is below the ref range when I had my urine cortisol tested it was found to be medium/high, so they are producing cortisol but its just not being absorbed at the cellular level. Perhaps because metals and infections are binding to the receptors I don't know. I still have a lot of hope though as I really believe that our bodies have a great capacity to heal.

    Jenbooks I'm sorry you suffered so much from the DMSA challenge and the salt/c too. I had a DMSA challenge about 12 yrs ago under the care of a doctor when I still had my amalgams which was obviously a big mistake on his part. I cant remember what dose it was and although I didnt suffer any kidney problems, I did feel like I was starting to go crazy about 6 months later which in retrospect I wondered if it was due to mercury distribution. This was what led me to seek advice from the herbalist I mentioned above!

    Nicola is right that some very sensitive people start really low I remember someone starting on 1mg of ALA for example, but I can totally understand your reluctance to take the risk after your experience as no-can can predict how you will respond and then who will take responsibility if it all goes wrong?

    Take care
     
  13. Advocate

    Advocate Senior Member

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    Methylation in the Mainstream
    October 16, 2009

    http://www.genomeweb.com//node/925880?emc=el&m=522339&l=5&v=7fbe4872db

    Adding to all those other "You know your science has hit the mainstream when..." signs, the Economist has an article on epigenomics.

    The story reports on the epigenomics program that's part of the NIH Roadmap, and in particular work from Ryan Lister and Mattia Pelizzola at the Salk Institute who studied epigenomics in embryonic stem cells.

    "The presumption is that the pattern of methylation, by controlling which proteins are manufactured, helps determine what type of cell is produced," the story says.
     
  14. Sunday

    Sunday Senior Member

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    Klutzo,

    I don't know if my sleep patterns on adb12 are of interest any more, as it seems there are more variables in your case, but I did notice a pattern similar to the one you mention. The first night or two, nothing noticeable; but I've begun staying up later the last few nights. At first I didn't think much of it: before this illness it would be an unusual night when I would go to bed before midnight. Then I started thinking, hm, getting energized late at night and it 's a waning moon so it's not about full-moon energy keeping me up. And last night I had to double my usual evening dose to get to sleep - and I'd taken the trouble to get my adb12 doses in before late afternoon.

    So in all I'd say that the adb12 is affecting my sleep patterns now but not as strongly as yours seems to have been affected. I'm guessing this will stop when I fill in my missing adb12, but since I'm nocturnal by nature it might also be a step toward a more "normal" (for me) sleep schedule.

    I will say that my sleep has been very refreshing once I got there (it seems likely that other therapies such as acupuncture and far infrared quilts might be helping here, but the adb12 may be having an effect in that department as well).
     
  15. klutzo

    klutzo Senior Member

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    sleep

    Sunday,
    That is encouraging news! I hope your sleep continues to improve.
    I have stopped except for B-Right because of my recent stint in the Emer. Rm. for my pancreas. I figure after all that stress, I can use the B5 in B-Right for my shot adrenals. (I tested my adrenals afterwards and my systolic blood pressure fell 52 pts. when I stood up. Good thing I have high blood pressure or I'd have fainted. My pupil could not hold dilation at all either).
    I also had to switch thyroid med due to the Armour shortage and the new one made me fly to the moon. I was shaking, rattling and rolling with zero sleep and a blood pressure of 190/100! The new Armour was weaker so I'd had to raise the dose and switching to an equivalent dose of synthetics was a bad idea.
    Oh, I also am taking an entire mehylfolacin tab on an empty stomach each morning, after reading a post on a study that says all pancreatic enzymes block foalte absorption. I take more than 600 of those enzymes each month and am about to have my dosage raised again.

    klutzo
    PS. I tried to answer your message but am not sure I did it right since it was not a standard PM. I am sorry if you did not get my answer.
     
  16. Sunday

    Sunday Senior Member

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    Well, you never know when something like high blood pressure will come in handy, I guess. Glad it saved you from passing out. Sounds as if you are getting a bit of a bumpy ride from your other meds. Interesting to know that pancreas enzymes and folate don't mix - although now I'll have to scratch my head awhile to make proper use of that information.
     
  17. _Kim_

    _Kim_ Guest

    What does Peterson mean by this?

    Listening to Dr. Peterson's Talk in Gothenberg Sweden. At the very end of the program, he makes the comment,

    "With respect to iron deficiency and B12 deficiency, by definition if you have those deficiencies, you can't have chronic fatigue. So those people are excluded from the diagnosis.

    Can anyone elaborate on his comment?
     
  18. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    To Kim re: Dr. Peterson's comment

    Hi, Kim.

    I suspect that he was referring to the definition of CFS as a diagnosis of exclusion. Known medical conditions must be ruled out before a diagnosis of CFS can be given.

    Iron deficiency anemia and vitamin B12 deficiency (such as due to pernicious anemia) are known medical conditions, so that if a person has one of them, that would be their diagnosis, rather than CFS.

    For what it's worth, in the GD-MCB hypothesis for CFS, there is not an actual deficiency of B12. The problem is that the B12 is not being converted into its coenzyme forms at the rates it should be, because there is not enough glutathione present to protect it from other reactions during the conversion process in the cells.

    Rich
     
  19. dannybex

    dannybex Senior Member

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    Hi Kim...

    I'm just a sick schmoe, but it seems possible that some of the factors involved in CFS (including the new XMRV retrovirus) might actually cause anemia and/or b12 issues (like Rich suggests).

    Dan
     
  20. Dreambirdie

    Dreambirdie work in progress

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    When your body is under constant stress from viral agents and toxins, it would follow that the nutrients and vitamins would not be converted properly.
     

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