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B-12 - The Hidden Story

Freddd

Senior Member
Messages
5,184
Location
Salt Lake City
Thanks @Johnmac for the reply :), i address and look up to you for your valuable inputs, since we are similar- in response to LCF, so i may be able to learn from your pitfalls if any. No doubt @Freddd is master for all of us here.

My two cents idea. may be you could evaluate, if it makes meaning, i did try to use a oil ( only B12 , not folate as it does not have BBB issue) in the center of head. which could trans-dermal seep into the head (CSF penetration similar to intraventricular). i dint do a sustained trial to declare the result. i will try again once im stable on LCF after a few months..

Thanks once again.. :thumbsup:

@suraj,

According to the MythylPro site the 6S isomer of l-methylfolate has better BBB penetration than the Metafolin fom of L-methylfolate. I am doing a trial of the 6S isomer currently. I did notice a first day effect difference of a neurological brightening and mood changes. Whether that is of significance I can't tell you as CNS changes are slow.
 
Messages
56
@suraj,

According to the MythylPro site the 6S isomer of l-methylfolate has better BBB penetration than the Metafolin fom of L-methylfolate. I am doing a trial of the 6S isomer currently. I did notice a first day effect difference of a neurological brightening and mood changes. Whether that is of significance I can't tell you as CNS changes are slow.

@Freddd

http://methyl-life.com/methylfolate-types/

I understand from above link metafolin too is 6S isomer. but the calcium salt does not dissolve quickly. so this site states magnafolate-c is the best of the two worlds. but does not provide any info on BBB penetration.
 
Messages
56
I'm flattered that you asked Fred & me in the same breath. But he's the expert round here: I flail in his wake.

The FP has basically been great for me.

LCF can be a right MTHFR, and I don't mean methylenetetrahydrofolate reductase (NAD(P)H. Like you, I am sensitive to LCF - way more than you, I think, as I can't take it at all - I gather because the dosages in capsules are too big. On Fred's advice I had to switch to liquid carnitine, which I can titrate up slowly from tiny dosages. (Now on 4 mg after several months.)

My most recent augmentations have been:

* Switching from sublingual to transdermal, via the world famous @ahmo method (patent pending): grind the B12 & folate pills up, mix them with oil, and bandage them against your body. (She uses wristbands; I use elastoplasts. More sophisticated operators use commercial oils: tho folate oils are hard to come by, & the Australian guy who makes B12 oils isn't even sure they could work.) That took me from 65% functioning to 75%, & allowed me to cut doses by 1/3. I.e. lower dosage, higher effect.

* Upping my B2 from 10mg to 40mg. That has kicked me from 75% functioning to about 90%, at least for the week since I began it.

I don't know what's going on with the B2; but my experiment suggests, to me at least, that transdermal methy-folate works, & that transdermal methylfolate, methyl B12 & adenosyl B12 achieves more penetration than the other methods.

Good luck...

@Johnmac sorry i dint understand (NAD(P)H , did u mean Panmol® NADH (nicotinamide adenine dinucleotide )
 

Freddd

Senior Member
Messages
5,184
Location
Salt Lake City
@Freddd

http://methyl-life.com/methylfolate-types/

I understand from above link metafolin too is 6S isomer. but the calcium salt does not dissolve quickly. so this site states magnafolate-c is the best of the two worlds. but does not provide any info on BBB penetration.

HI Suraj,

My mistake in understanding. Here is the relevant quote however.

"I like to think of it as the glucosamine salt dissolves faster, therefore freeing the (6S)-5-MTHF to get into your bloodstream quicker, at least quicker than the Metafolin®’s calcium salt dissolves). It’s worth noting that this may make a difference in how one feels symptomatically when taking Quatrefolic® (glucosamine-salt based) vs. Metafolin®. One may experience positive or negative methylation results faster. I have heard of some people encountering side effects based on one vs. the other salt type (so just be aware as you take your methylfolate – you may be fine with one salt type and have trouble with the other, or you may be fine with both salt types). Pay attention to your body and switch to a different type, if you think the salt version might be causing you problems."

I do feel a small difference. Maybe it is that it gets in quicker. I take 45mg (1.5 times the 30mg Metafolin) of the one kind with a slightly noticeable immediate difference which I do not know if it is meaningful. They both work and get rid of all my folate deficiency symptoms approximately equally though they feel slightly different. The BBB quote was on a different page. So who knows what that means.

It comes down to personal trials to see what works best for the specific person. I would have been perfectly fine with Metafolin except for the cost. As the dose was titrated up to full effectiveness I couldn't afford it so had to look for alternatives. I personally think that Merck has done all of us a vast service by making Metafolin available in the first place. It saved my life.
 
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Messages
56
HI Suraj,

My mistake in understanding. Here is the relevant quote however.

"I like to think of it as the glucosamine salt dissolves faster, therefore freeing the (6S)-5-MTHF to get into your bloodstream quicker, at least quicker than the Metafolin®’s calcium salt dissolves). It’s worth noting that this may make a difference in how one feels symptomatically when taking Quatrefolic® (glucosamine-salt based) vs. Metafolin®. One may experience positive or negative methylation results faster. I have heard of some people encountering side effects based on one vs. the other salt type (so just be aware as you take your methylfolate – you may be fine with one salt type and have trouble with the other, or you may be fine with both salt types). Pay attention to your body and switch to a different type, if you think the salt version might be causing you problems."

I do feel a small difference. Maybe it is that it gets in quicker. I take 45mg (1.5 times the 30mg Metafolin) of the one kind with a slightly noticeable immediate difference which I do not know if it is meaningful. They both work and get rid of all my folate deficiency symptoms approximately equally though they feel slightly different. The BBB quote was on a different page. So who knows what that means.

It comes down to personal trials to see what works best for the specific person. I would have been perfectly fine with Metafolin except for the cost. As the dose was titrated up to full effectiveness I couldn't afford it so had to look for alternatives. I personally think that Merck has done all of us a vast service by making Metafolin available in the first place. It saved my life.

Thanks @Freddd , Got you !!. I'm using a generic form (23mg), and small quantities of Quatrefolic (Thorne products), i could not tolerate Metafolin. I'm just few months old on your protocol :), once i stabilize on LCAR, i will try metafolin/ Extrafolate-s/ magnafolate-c again.
 
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Johnmac

Senior Member
Messages
756
Location
Cambodia
@Johnmac sorry i dint understand (NAD(P)H , did u mean Panmol® NADH (nicotinamide adenine dinucleotide )

No, it was just a joke @suraj. I meant that LCF can be a real horror to people who react to it: its meltdowns are uniquely awful.

I should add for general (& @Freddd's) interest that I have been crushing up the methyl-folate & m-B12 (& AdoCbl weekly), mixing it with alcohol then oil, & applying it to my skin under a bandage.

I was able to drop doses by one-third straight away, & even then the effect was better than the sublingual.

Ten days later it's still apparently working. We already know that mB12 works transdermally; so the only reason I could be wrong about m-folate working transdermally (so far as I can deduce) is if I was never getting any m-folate effect in the first place - & this (sublingual, transdermal) is all an mB12 effect. I don't think so, as I often get an instant lift from m-folate - but you never know.

I've upped my 10mg/day of oral B2 to 40, which increased the effect further.

Ten days isn't long, so I'll wait to see how this pans out before declaring to the world that TD m-folate is the best & cheapest method.

The Australian mB12 oils guy that @garyfritz uses (a PhD biochemist) is going to make up some m-folate oils for me to try. Penetration would probably be better with them, as skin penetration is something he has done a lot of work on with these oils.

Till then I was considering - & may yet try - the China route: importing 30g bags of m-folate & m-B12. The cost per mg is a fraction of what we are paying for our current supplements.
 
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56
No, it was just a joke @suraj. I meant that LCF can be a real horror to people who react to it: its meltdowns are uniquely awful.

@Johnmac thanks for the detail reply. it scares me when you use the term "awful" . im going very slow since being beaten once. still tapered down LCAR again (1:98) to 1 drop twice a day or so, due to sleeplessness. and thus added TMG to smooth that out. can you tell me how many months could it take to stabilize on LCAR. is it anxiety alone or are there other awful feelings. just scared as i have just started searching for a job.
 
Messages
56
Hi all

my dad just started of on a basic multi vitamin (Thorne basics V), which has active form of 150 mcg Folate and 83 mcg B12, just 1 a day . his pre existing knee pain has become severe. increase in inflammation. any advice!! he is 75+.

also some of my other family members who started of on multi got kind of piles, and even heat boils, that stayes for over couple of months.

not sure why such small quantities of folate trigger such inflammation.

any advice is appreciated.
 

Johnmac

Senior Member
Messages
756
Location
Cambodia
No real idea. The only thing I know that causes all of the above is copper deficiency. (@Freddd recently had that, & so did I.) Do these people take lots of zinc? That's the only -Cu cause I know, but Fred knows more about -Cu etiology.

I'm not saying it is -Cu (you can't diagnose people via the Internet) - just some speculation.

Hi all

my dad just started of on a basic multi vitamin (Thorne basics V), which has active form of 150 mcg Folate and 83 mcg B12, just 1 a day . his pre existing knee pain has become severe. increase in inflammation. any advice!! he is 75+.

also some of my other family members who started of on multi got kind of piles, and even heat boils, that stayes for over couple of months.

not sure why such small quantities of folate trigger such inflammation.

any advice is appreciated.
 

Johnmac

Senior Member
Messages
756
Location
Cambodia
@Johnmac thanks for the detail reply. it scares me when you use the term "awful" . im going very slow since being beaten once. still tapered down LCAR again (1:98) to 1 drop twice a day or so, due to sleeplessness. and thus added TMG to smooth that out. can you tell me how many months could it take to stabilize on LCAR. is it anxiety alone or are there other awful feelings. just scared as i have just started searching for a job.

No need to worry if you're going slowly @suraj. My problem was I leapt straight into the full dosage, not realising I was LCF-reactive. I've never had a problem doing it low & slow with the liquid carnitine. A couple of times I have noticed I'm clenching my teeth somewhat, so I just back off on the dosage...then carefully increase again.

Also, I started quite a few things at once, & I didn't know what was causing my acute anxiety. That took a while to figure out. (It was the LCF.)

I felt an acute discomfort to be in my own body, & there was nothing I could envisage I could do or a place I could be where I would feel better. (I haven't heard of anyone else having this reaction BTW.) Plus the anxiety. It wasn't pretty. But you'll be fine on low & slow.
 

Freddd

Senior Member
Messages
5,184
Location
Salt Lake City
Hi all

my dad just started of on a basic multi vitamin (Thorne basics V), which has active form of 150 mcg Folate and 83 mcg B12, just 1 a day . his pre existing knee pain has become severe. increase in inflammation. any advice!! he is 75+.

also some of my other family members who started of on multi got kind of piles, and even heat boils, that stayes for over couple of months.

not sure why such small quantities of folate trigger such inflammation.

any advice is appreciated.

@suraj,

To the best of my knowledge what you think is happening is most likely the opposite. When a little bit of B12 and folate starts inflammation, it is because of an induced folate deficiency. One of the things that can happen with B12/folate is that they act on "internal triage levels" as some researchers called it. It is also an aspect of refeeding syndrome. The healing that is started on a level wide basis and without enough folate then takes folate from other levels leaving them with lots of inflammation. I'm 67 and have been through this over and over again. Also, lesions can start up, often as acne type lesions on the scalp but sometimes spreading to all over the body lesions as large as a quarter. I haven't had therm that large but know somebody who did. Small quantities of folate triggers inflammation on a large scale. It is precisely because it is so small a dose. There are those who disagree with me. These deficiency symptoms keep right on going because one the deficiency starts it doesn't fix itself. Refeeding syndrome can be damaging and even fatal with induced potassium deficiency. Keeping the doses low or stopping can keep the problems going for years in many cases. If my hypothesis is correct, and it has been for me, a larger dose, like 4mg 4 times a day, would have my inflammation decreasing and lesions starting healing a lot in a few days. The same problems can also be caused by larger doses of folic acid, HyCbl, CyCbl, glutathione, NAC and some other things. However, the small insufficient doses are what sticks out. You must of course make your own choices. For years I had continuous folate deficiency symptoms like these.[ Then they became intermittent and far fewer in number as my dose went up. At 15mg/day I was down to several recurring symptoms at 2 week intervals At 30mg/day I have no folate deficiency symptoms. I did have some of the similar symptoms from copper deficiency and that was with a serum level at the low end of "in range". If an enough higher dose of methylfolate will help, you and your dad would likely know in a few days. I always did. Good luck.

Version 2.11 01/11/2016 A work in process, incomplete, use at your own risk.

INDUCED DEFICIENCY SYMPTOMS FROM REFEEDING SYNDROME. This can follow 5 days of food deprivation, anorexia, or sort of a pinpoint starvation via vitamin or mineral or amino acid deficiencies. Whatever the “most needed” item is will often cause a strong response

Group 1 – Hypokalemia onset. Often called “detox”. Symptoms may appear with serum potassium as high as 4.3. May become dangerous if ignored. Considered “rare” with CyCbl (Cyanocobalamin) it is very common with MeCbl (methylcobalamin) and AdoCbl (adenosylcobalamin) and less so with HyCbl (Hydroxycobalamin).

There does not appear to be a clear order of onset. The order of onset varies widely from person to person but many appear consistent for each episode for any given person. There tend to be more and more intense symptoms as it gets worse. Some people have ended up in the ER because of not recognizing the symptoms.

IBS – Steady constipation, Nausea, Vomiting, Paralyzed Ileum,

Hard knots of muscle, Sudden muscle spasms when relaxed, Sudden muscle spasms when stretching , Sudden muscle spasms when kneeling, Sudden muscle spasms when reaching , Sudden muscle spasms when turning upper body to side, Tightening of muscles, spasms and excruciating pain in neck muscles, waking up screaming in pain from muscle spasms in legs. Muscle weakness

Abnormal heart rhythms (dysrhythmias), increased pulse rate, increased blood pressure

Emotional changes and/or instability, dermal or sub-dermal Itching, and if not treated potentially paralysis and death.


Group 2a - Both

IBS – Diarrhea alternating with constipation, IBS – Normal alternating with constipation


Group 2b – Either or both

Headache, Increased malaise, Fatigue



Group 3 - Induced and/or Paradoxical Folate deficiency or insufficiency, partial methylation block to methyltrap on 1 or more internal triage levels. Frequently called “NAC DETOX” or “GLUTATHIONE DETOX”.

These symptoms appear in 2 forms generally, the milder symptoms that start with partial methylation block and the more severe symptoms that come on as partial methylation block gets worse or very quickly with methyltrap onset.

Edema - An additional thing I would like to mention. I would never have found it without 5 years of watching the onset of paradoxical folate insufficiency and trying to catch it earlier and earlier and to figure out what was causing it and to reverse it. For me the onset order goes back to the day of onset now with edema and a sudden increase of weight. I noticed that within 2 hours of taking sufficient Metafolin I would have an increase in urine output.

Old symptoms returning
Edema

Angular Cheilitis, Canker sores,

Skin rashes, increased acne, Increased itchy acne on scalp and face, Skin peeling around fingernails, Skin cracking and peeling at fingertips,

IBS – Diarrhea alternating with constipation, IBS – Normal alternating with constipation
Headache, Increased malaise, Fatigue


Increased hypersensitive responses, Runny nose, Increased allergies, Increased Multiple Chemical Sensitivities, Increased asthma, rapidly increasing Generalized inflammation in body, Increased Inflammation pain in muscles, Increased Inflammation pain in joints, Achy muscles, Flu like symptoms

IBS – Steady diarrhea, IBS – Diarrhea alternating with normal, Stomach ache, Uneasy digestive tract,

Coated tongue, Depression, Less sociable, Impaired planning and logic, Brain fog, Low energy, Light headedness, Sluggishness, Increase irritability, Heart palpitations,


Longer term, very serious

Loss of reflexes, Fevers, Forgetfulness, Confusion, Difficulty walking, Behavioral disorders, Dementia, Reduced sense of taste, bleeding easily



Group 4 - HyCbl onset, degraded MeCbl onset, MeCbl after photolytic breakdown onset.

Itchy bumps generally on scalp or face that develops to acne like lesions in a few days from start.


Group 5 – Copper deficiency after methylation startup has been achieved which often starts refeeding syndrome. 50mg or more of zinc has been indicated as a possible cause. 200-400 mg of zinc has been linked to copper deficiency. Excess supplemental or environmental manganese is linked to copper deficiency. Any or all symptoms can occur at “low normal range” copper tests.

Demyelination of nerves similar to Sub Acute Combined Degeneration except that methylation and ATP startup has occurred, and copper deficiency favors damage to the upper motor neurons with perceived muscle weakness. Brittle nails. Sleep disorders. Mood (especially depression perhaps) and personality changes. Connective tissue breakdown. Spider veins. Varicose veins. Shrinking gums. Gum disease not responsive to usual measures. Unstoppable tooth decay on exposed areas without enamel. Low testosterone


Group 6 – Excess P-5-P, an active form of B6 that appears to drive hematocrit.
High hematocrit. The blood thickens and doesn’t pump as easily. Deep vein thrombosis can result. Other suspected circulatory hazards. Sometimes linked to high testosterone when lowering P-5-P might reduce it.


Group 7 – Excess B-vitamins affecting methylation
When taking the active B12/folate deadlock quartet (AdoCbl, MeCbl, Metafolin, L-methylfolate) Excess B1 - Thiamin, Excess B2 – Riboflavin, Excess B3 – Niacin and/or Excess Inositol can all produce an excess need for potassium to deal with Groups 1, 2a and 2b symptoms and/or produce an excess need for l-methylfolate to reduce groups 2a, 2b and 3 symptoms. A person might not be able to correct by taking potassium or folate and may need to reduce B1 <= 15mg/day, B2<= 10.2mg/day, B3 <=50mg, and inositol below an unknown quantity.


Group 8 – Boron.
Arthritis swelling and pain, can be reduced by Boron

https://www.organicfacts.net/health-benefits/minerals/boron.html

Although all of the deficiency symptoms of boron are not fully understood, it is known that boron deficiency might result in the abnormal metabolism of calcium and magnesium. Some of the other symptoms include hyperthyroidism, sex hormone imbalance, osteoporosis, arthritis and neural malfunction.
 
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Messages
56
@Johnmac thanks for the detail reply. it scares me when you use the term "awful" . im going very slow since being beaten once. still tapered down LCAR again (1:98) to 1 drop twice a day or so, due to sleeplessness. and thus added TMG to smooth that out. can you tell me how many months could it take to stabilize on LCAR. is it anxiety alone or are there other awful feelings. just scared as i have just started searching for a job.

No need to worry if you're going slowly @suraj. My problem was I leapt straight into the full dosage, not realising I was LCF-reactive. I've never had a problem doing it low & slow with the liquid carnitine. A couple of times I have noticed I'm clenching my teeth somewhat, so I just back off on the dosage...then carefully increase again.

Also, I started quite a few things at once, & I didn't know what was causing my acute anxiety. That took a while to figure out. (It was the LCF.)

I felt an acute discomfort to be in my own body, & there was nothing I could envisage I could do or a place I could be where I would feel better. (I haven't heard of anyone else having this reaction BTW.) Plus the anxiety. It wasn't pretty. But you'll be fine on low & slow.

Love U @Johnmac , thank you for reassuring me :) low & slow path is pretty safe ahead.

i understand how that is "I felt an acute discomfort to be in my own body," . i felt the same on full dosage LCF, crashed with severe depression, brain fog, black out, i was just crawling between kitchen and bed :lol: for 20 days, also if i completely withdrew from LCF, i was equally crappy :sluggish::devil:.
This was before u pointed me to @Freddd s micro titration on LCAR :thumbsup:. thanks once again :hug:

i was on 10MG adB12 for 2 months before i added LCF, probably that could be a reason. just a wild guess.
 
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Johnmac

Senior Member
Messages
756
Location
Cambodia
Love U @Johnmac , thank you for reassuring me :) low & slow path is pretty safe ahead.

i understand how that is "I felt an acute discomfort to be in my own body," . i felt the same on full dosage LCF, crashed with severe depression, brain fog, black out, i was just crawling between kitchen and bed :lol: for 20 days, also if i completely withdrew from LCF, i was equally crappy :sluggish::devil:.
This was before u pointed me to @Freddd s micro titration on LCAR :thumbsup:. thanks once again :hug:

i was on 10MG adB12 for 2 months before i added LCF, probably that could be a reason. just a wild guess.

Well @Freddd saved my butt on that one, so I was happy to pass it on. Interesting that there are now two people who have had the "acute discomfort in my own body" thing. I was simultaneously anxious & exhausted.

Fred also told me not to stop carnitine, as that would make it worse - just to lower the dose. Which has always worked.

What he said above about paradoxical folate deficiency is probably right, BTW. As he says, you'll probably know within days.
 

aquariusgirl

Senior Member
Messages
1,732
I couldn't really tolerate folate and B12 til I resolved my copper and zinc issues.

I had severe Zn/Cu SODase problems....diagnosed by Acumen in Devon UK. I would NOT touch regular copper...(just me) but mitolipo from mitosyngergy.com works for me...

but trying to restart methylation with all that oxidative stress going on....just resulted in excitotoxicity.....Rich Van K documented this response from quite a few ppl.. he blamed the toxic and pathogen load....

Just my 2 cents..
 

Freddd

Senior Member
Messages
5,184
Location
Salt Lake City
I couldn't really tolerate folate and B12 til I resolved my copper and zinc issues.

I had severe Zn/Cu SODase problems....diagnosed by Acumen in Devon UK. I would NOT touch regular copper...(just me) but mitolipo from mitosyngergy.com works for me...

but trying to restart methylation with all that oxidative stress going on....just resulted in excitotoxicity.....Rich Van K documented this response from quite a few ppl.. he blamed the toxic and pathogen load....

Just my 2 cents..

@aquariusgirl,

That complication, "what is the first thing that has to be cleared up?" before being able to deal with what happens then, is one of those mysteries, where to start. And why some of us are so sensitive to differences in form is something that is rarely studied. And in 5 years of deterioration due to copper deficiency not one of my doctors or dentists or anybody noticed the clues and suggested the possibility. It took serious neurological and gum problems to get my attention.
 

SJB944

Senior Member
Messages
178
I couldn't really tolerate folate and B12 til I resolved my copper and zinc issues.

I had severe Zn/Cu SODase problems....diagnosed by Acumen in Devon UK. I would NOT touch regular copper...(just me) but mitolipo from mitosyngergy.com works for me...

but trying to restart methylation with all that oxidative stress going on....just resulted in excitotoxicity.....Rich Van K documented this response from quite a few ppl.. he blamed the toxic and pathogen load....

Just my 2 cents..

@aquariusgirl how did you go about fixing the Zn/Cu SODase problems -- by simply supplementing with zn and cu?
 

SJB944

Senior Member
Messages
178
how did you go about fixing the Zn/Cu SODase problems -- by simply supplementing with zn and cu?
Www.mitosynergy.com 's copper & zinc but I don't know what to do about manganese.[/QUOTE]

Did you also have low Manganese SOD as well? Myhill simply suggests supplementing with manganese -- of course, it's not always as easy as that. My acumen test also showed low zn/cu and manganese SODase, but I did the opposite to you and started with Fred's protocol and am now getting back to the SODase.