B-12 - The Hidden Story

[Ninan]

@Ninan

*LOL* Yeah, I should have guessed.

 

[Ninan]

I'm on a roller coaster ride with B12. It works at 1000 mcgs methylfolate and then the effect goes away slowly and I need more folate to keep my precious energy. I add or increase something and the effect is back. For a month or two. And round we go. Now I seem to be taking quite big doses of all the common stuff and I'm starting to wonder if I'm lacking some of the more unusual stuff like... lithium? Or anything else? Anyone has experience on this? I'm having great effect, it's more or less keeping me alive and I don't want to lose it for the world.

 

[Ninan]

And while I'm at it: Which biotin brand is the best? Any suggestions?

 

[Jade east]

Fredd experienced something similar. He has a post on another thread, but from memory the gist of it was the more b vitamins he took, the more folate he had to take. Potassium too I think. He re titrated and eventually got it back to reasonable amounts.
I've used the Jarrow biotin , Coountry Living, & others (trying to hold onto my hair) but didn't notice any appreciable difference between them. Anyone else?

 

[Ninan]

Thanks @Jade east ! I wonder if that's it or not. I don't need much potassium, never have. I just get dizzy when I add more than the 50 mgs I take. But I'm going to stop take Thorne's Basic B complex (why do they have 110 mgs of B1 in it anyway?) and switch to Nature Made's B with C which seems more balanced.

I recently started taking dibencozide, anabolnaturals dibencoplex, one a day. The timing corresponds with my need for folate skyrocketing. (My normal dose is about 1000 mcgs. Two days ago I needed 2000 mcgs and today I'm going on 4000 just to feel not too crappy. ) Needing more folate for me is usually a sign I'm lacking some cofactors but I'm not sure if that's it this time or what it might be.

I heard somewhere that dibencozide could deplete CoQ10 and magnesium, is that correct? What else could have happened that affects methylation? Any ideas? I had great effect from dibencozide for a start but now it seems not to work very well, which I guess also could mean that I've run out of something.

I've also added ALA, SAMe and LCF recently so I guess I might have driven up methylation too much. Tricky. If this continues I might need a whole bottle of methylfolate a day pretty soon. :thumbdown:

 

[sregan]

Processing basic Niacin or Niacinamide in the liver consumes Methyl groups, which is why it's used for over-methylators. To great extent NADH avoids that.

@Leopardtail Do you know if NAD avoids that also?

 

[Ninan]

@Leopardtail Do you know if NAD avoids that also?

Niacin also lowers the body's use of choline. I wonder if that anti overmethylation effect could have something to do with lowering levels of acetylcholine? At least that what it feels like to me when I'm in overmethylation and take B3.

 

[mgk]

I'm on a roller coaster ride with B12. It works at 1000 mcgs methylfolate and then the effect goes away slowly and I need more folate to keep my precious energy. I add or increase something and the effect is back. For a month or two. And round we go. Now I seem to be taking quite big doses of all the common stuff and I'm starting to wonder if I'm lacking some of the more unusual stuff like... lithium? Or anything else? Anyone has experience on this? I'm having great effect, it's more or less keeping me alive and I don't want to lose it for the world.

I'm going through the same thing right now. High dose folate has been magical for my depression and brain fog, but I'm finding that every day I need more and more. According to many anecdotal experiences here, folate is like potassium in that it needs to be titrated to symptoms. There are some people here who have gone to the double digit mgs for a while and then were able to titrate back down without experiencing any adverse effects and keeping the health gains. Take a look at this thread for more discussion on this.

 

[ahmo]

@mgk I eventually learned 2 things about my needs for high doses of folate. 1) vegetable folinic was blocking methylfolate, so I kept experiencing deficiency symptoms until I cut the green veggies. It's possible this is linked to MTHFR.

2) Once I'd cut green veggies, which reduced my folate needs by 1/2, I eventually learned to take it by dumping capsule or tab into gum line, like we take B12. This reduced my need to 1/3 what I'd been taking. I've been using this method now for about 9 months, stabilized at 5mg folate. And my MethylB12 has also stabilized at 5mg taken transdermally. I'd been using 20mg sublingual, but now mix some liquid B12 drops w/ body lotion and apply. There's a transdermal B12 thread.

 

[mgk]

Thanks for the update @ahmo.

vegetable folinic was blocking methylfolate, so I kept experiencing deficiency symptoms until I cut the green veggies. It's possible this is linked to MTHFR.

How long after cutting the veggies did the need for methylfolate decrease? I usually feel better when I eat more veggies, but it might be worth a try anyway.

Once I'd cut green veggies, which reduced my folate needs by 1/2, I eventually learned to take it by dumping capsule or tab into gum line, like we take B12. This reduced my need to 1/3 what I'd been taking. I've been using this method now for about 9 months, stabilized at 5mg folate. And my MethylB12 has also stabilized at 5mg taken transdermally. I'd been using 20mg sublingual, but now mix some liquid B12 drops w/ body lotion and apply. There's a transdermal B12 thread.

I tried this with the Solgar Metafolin I'm using now but didn't notice a difference in absorption. Which folate are you using?

The B12 sublinguals are starting to irritate my teeth and gums so I'm looking into alternative ways of taking B12 as well.

 

[ahmo]

How long after cutting the veggies did the need for methylfolate decrease?

Within 24 hours my fairly conservative detox practice jumped into high gear. Initially I believed it was due to the cooked veg moderating things. In retrospect, immediately methylation was dramatically increased/became more effecient.

Which folate are you using?

I'm generally using Thorne 5mg capsules, of which I use 1/3 AM, midday, PM. I've also used Solgar tabs, which seem to work equally well. I'm just going to increase my folate tonight by .25mg, using 1/4 Solgar tab, because my sudden hair loss might be an indication that the B12 drops I've just started using (Bluebonnet 5000mcg) are delivering more B12 than the California Extract drops that I'd used before, putting me into folate deficiency.

 

[Ninan]

I'm going through the same thing right now. High dose folate has been magical for my depression and brain fog, but I'm finding that every day I need more and more. According to many anecdotal experiences here, folate is like potassium in that it needs to be titrated to symptoms. There are some people here who have gone to the double digit mgs for a while and then were able to titrate back down without experiencing any adverse effects and keeping the health gains. Take a look at this thread for more discussion on this.

Thanks, I'll check it out.

I upped my magnesium dose and fell into overmethylation. Before I needed up to 3500 mcgs of methylfolate, with higher doses of Mg (600 mgs) I need only about 400 mcgs of folate. I guess I must have been Mg deficient. I take Gabapentin (Neurontin) during the day which blocks Mg uptake. Now I take all my Mg at night and that has made a difference. I feel so much better. Happy!

Does anyone else use need for methylfolate (how much you need to feel ok during the day) as an indicator to what doses of cofactors you need? To me it seems that when I lack cofactors I need to compensate by taking higher doses of folate. When I do that I know something's not right.

 

[danceintherain]

I am sorry...could not read all 164 pages of this thread. I only read the first couple posts with all the supplements. I have some questions about them. If I am taking some of them already (and have been for a while)...like selenium and LCF for instance....do I need to stop them and start the protocol without them? And what about other supplements not listed? I take a lot of vitamins, amino acids and also herbals. Do I just need to stop them all before starting this protocol? And also, I have severe chronic insomnia. I read that the active B's can cause sleep problems. I know taking it in the morning is recommended so that won't happen, but when I tried .5 mg of LDN taken at 8am, it still kept me awake all night and a few days to get back to my normal amount of sleep after that (not taking the LDN).

 

[Gondwanaland]

@danceintherain
Click the link "Freddd's protocol" in my signature for summarized and updated info.

For anyone to reply to your questions more detailed info is needed.

Start a new thread in the methylation forum detailing your symptoms and supplementation regimen + SNPs if you have them.

 

[danceintherain]

I don't know what SNP stands for. There are a lot of abbreviations people use here. I have figured out some, but it would be really helpful to have some sort of reference page...or maybe there is one I haven't found?

 

[ahmo]

.do I need to stop them and start the protocol without them? And what about other supplements not listed? I take a lot of vitamins, amino acids and also herbals. Do I just need to stop them all before starting this protocol?

No, you don't need to stop. The main issue I could foresee is B vitamins in high doses; Fred recommends about 25mg B Complex, best in divided doses.

My severe chronic insomnia was eliminated when I got up to a useful level of B12. Re LDN, I started with match-head sized doses, doubled that every day or 2, so worked slowly up to .5mg. Don't give up, it's been marvelous for me, vastly increased my stamina. But you should use this approach to starting the B12/folate, start w/ tiny amounts. Clicking on links in Gondwanaland or my signature, also aturtles has a very current update on her blog.

I don't know what SNP stands for

Your genetic variations, as you see mine below my post, in my signature.

 

[Gondwanaland]

I don't know what SNP stands for. There are a lot of abbreviations people use here. I have figured out some, but it would be really helpful to have some sort of reference page...or maybe there is one I haven't found?

My advice is don't start the protocol while you don't recognize all the abbreviations
I saw you posted elsewhere that you are hyperthyroid. Starting the protocol improperly made me hyperthyroid and I lost a lot of weight. Then I got hypothyroid. Still loosing weight (I have Hashi's).

 

[danceintherain]

Thank you both. That is quite helpful. I have no idea what all of my genetic variations are, since I never got a comprehensive test, but I have gotten some tests and I have a +/+ for vit D malabsorption (although my dad has excellent vitamin D numbers), and I have a +/+ for the mthfr gene (I can't remember all of them but it is the one with the 6 in it). That is all I know. And I was recently diagnosed w Grave's disease and take thyroid blocking meds which caused me to be hypothyroid now. But I will start my own thread. I am totally confused by all the articles/threads. Thank you again.

 

[danceintherain]

Starting the protocol improperly made me hyperthyroid and I lost a lot of weight. Then I got hypothyroid. Still loosing weight (I have Hashi's). (Sorry...I haven't quite figured out how to do the quote thing. If I did it before, I don't know how it happened).

That is why I am trying to make sure I know what I am doing. I have had too many things go sideways. I am wary to do pretty much anything and everything...every time I think I am feeling so bad and try something new...or some unforeseen thing happens...and I feel worse, how I felt before seems really good. But right now it seems I feel worse and worse so not doing anything doesn't seem like an option. It used to be that I would remain the same until I tried a new treatment or something happened out of my control. But not the case now. Although it could be because of my thyroid now..idk. Like I said, I'll go and start my own thread. Thank you.

 

[Phred]

@mgk . And my MethylB12 has also stabilized at 5mg taken transdermally. I'd been using 20mg sublingual, but now mix some liquid B12 drops w/ body lotion and apply. There's a transdermal B12 thread.

Hi ahmo.

I was looking over some old posts and saw this one about your experiences with b12 drops and lotion. I'm quite curious how you do this.

What kind of lotion do you use?

Do you mix the b12 with the lotion using a red light or in a darkened room?

Is this still working well for you?

And finally, where do you apply the lotion?

I'd really love to stop using the sublinguals and this seems like a good method.

Thanks for any info.