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B-12 - The Hidden Story

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Cort, Jul 26, 2009.

  1. manna

    manna Senior Member

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    I know little about b12 but do recall Hal Huggins (mercury free dentistry pioneer) claim that b12 changes mercury (from fillings etc) into the highly toxic (50 x apparently) methyl mercury and so should be avoided. Which b12, if it makes a difference, i'm unsure.
     
  2. whodathunkit

    whodathunkit Senior Member

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    @manna, you're correct, methylB12 *can* be converted to methyl mercury. But the amount of methyl mercury converted by even a highly mercury-toxic individual is so negligible that we shouldn't worry about it. You're not going to be any worse off by taking B12, even if you are highly mercury toxic. The amount of what converts when you take B12 is very, very small. I'm bringing this up in case some might be inclined to take your remark out of context and worry, when there is no cause.

    This fact on conversion was posted by @Freddd, a member here whose father was a dentist and who says he frequently played with mercury (without protection) when he was a child. He thinks he was highly mercury contaminated, in addition to having a lot of genetic problems with his health, so it was a double whammy for him.

    Freddd was very ill before taking megadoses of B12 and starting methylation and putting his protocol together. If taking B12 when a lot of mercury is present in our bodies was very bad for us, I strongly suspect it would have showed up in him.

    In fact, Freddd's protocol is what started this thread, and he credits large doses of b12 and methylfolate with his recovery. He's cured himself of over 80% of his problems (probably more) using a protocol based on these two vitamins. He's also quite a research hound with a strong head for parsing data and synthesizing/integrating concepts, so I tend to believe him.

    Personally, I've been hearing about Huggins for years and from what I understand he has been very right on some things and not so much on others. This is one of his not-so-much's. If I remember correctly he implies that the ratio of conversion of mercury to methyl mercury in the presence of methylB12 is quite high, when this is not the case.

    That said, everyone in Western societies if not worldwide probably has a toxic level of mercury in their system and so could benefit from some chelation. And chelating probably would make methylation start-up easier for a lot of people, for a variety of reasons, one of which is reduction of mercury load. But mercury toxicity is likely not a big part of problems with methylation start-up for the vast majority of people, and for someone with CFS or other health problems, chelation should be approached very carefully and proceed slowly so as not to overtax the system.

    Point being, the methyl mercury thing with methylB12 is not worth worrying about. It's of no more concern than the mercury already in our bodies. Which is concerning enough. Just saying this so as not to scare people away from B12, which IMO is a highly, highly beneficial substance.
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2014
  3. Leopardtail

    Leopardtail Senior Member

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    Niacinamide (the most common form of B3) has ammonia in it, hence the question. Most supplements, even best quality ones use Niacinamide because it is released more slow so doesn't cause the flushing that true Niacin does. Active B3 is destroyed by stomach acid hence it has to be taken before food or sublingually and is also expensive my guess is that's why it's not in B-complex tablets.

    Most people need to take the same weight of P5P and R5P any reason that amounts are different?

    Is there any reason you have no B-9 & B-12 in your mix?
     
  4. Leopardtail

    Leopardtail Senior Member

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    The clue's in the name its Methyl-B12 that is thought by some to do that.
     
  5. manna

    manna Senior Member

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    one of the reasons i liked hal was the thorough and numerous (10's of thousands apparently) blood testing he did on all his patients. his conclusions were based on the bloodwork and the fact that high doses of b12 often took months to correct as far as giving a healthier blood picture went..

    some folk do get worse on it for sure...is this a healing curve or a worsening of symptons? hard to say for sure and being adamant it's fine is suspect in itself isn't it? you may be right but conclusions prevent enquiry.

    i think its good to voice his concerns, right or wrong, but maybe y'all thrashed this one out already...
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2014
  6. Leopardtail

    Leopardtail Senior Member

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    For anybody who might be interested, Genova do a blood test for Mercury and various other minerals toxins that allows safety to be assessed.
     
  7. whodathunkit

    whodathunkit Senior Member

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    @Leopardtail:

    "Niacinamide (the most common form of B3) has ammonia in it, hence the question. Most supplements, even best quality ones use Niacinamide because it is released more slow so doesn't cause the flushing that true Niacin does. Active B3 is destroyed by stomach acid hence it has to be taken before food or sublingually and is also expensive my guess is that's why it's not in B-complex tablets."
    Thanks so much! This makes a lot of sense. Another piece of the puzzle for me, I think. :) I'll have my ammonia tested just to satisfy my curiosity. Also will do some research to understand the ramifications of high ammonia levels. I may have them. Possibly also the snp that causes high ammonia. I've never reacted to niacin or niacinimide well, ever, and I've tried to increase my dosage of them several times over the years to achieve various effects. I never noticed any overt problems when taken in a B complex before, but looking back I realize I always felt better when I *wasn't* taking a B complex. I guess I just never noticed the effect before because it wasn't as pronounced. I always felt crappy before starting methylation, it was just different degrees of crappy. I knew when I felt worse than normal but normal was crap, too. But now when I feel crappy I really know it, because I finally know what feeling good feels like. If that makes any sense.

    "Most people need to take the same weight of P5P and R5P any reason that amounts are different?"
    Just the way the pills come. Country Life P5P is 50mg, Thorne R5P is a smaller dose. You think I should up my R5P? I seem to be doing well on that dose of P5P and have been taking it longer than the R5P, so rather than decrease P5P I might be better off increasing R5P. But I'm actually doing pretty good in general so maybe don't need to tweak these...? What do you think?

    "Is there any reason you have no B-9 & B-12 in your mix?"
    :lol::rofl: There's TONS of methylfolate and MB12 in my mix. And some AdB12 as well. I'm actually on quite large doses of mfolate and mb12, and, as I said, am doing quite well. Except when I take niacin or niacinimide. I didn't mention 9 or 12 because I thought they were a "given" on this board. ;)

    Worth noting is I decided to add the rest of the B's because of the large doses of 6, 9 & 12 I was taking. The additions seem to have helped a bit, although the effect was subtle because I wasn't doing badly before them. They just made things a bit better. Particularly the riboflavin.

    Also worth noting is that I drink quite a bit of milk so am getting some B's from there, too.
     
  8. whodathunkit

    whodathunkit Senior Member

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    @manna: My biggest concern is that people who could benefit from B12 might be needlessly scared away from it by taking comments like yours at face value, without researching what you say for themselves, and without thinking them through critically. Also without knowing a thing about Huggins, who is most emphatically NOT right all the time.

    Is that what YOU want? For people to be needlessly scared away from what is a potentially life-and-health-saving substance without thinking it through and knowing all potential facts?

    Your comment about methyl mercury vapor and how it is formed brought to mind something else Freddd said about methyl mercury: namely, what happens in the test tube likely isn't what happens in the body. The tests you refer to by researchers all happened in a test tube. The environment (and thus likely the conversion) is far different between the body and a glass beaker in a lab.

    Did Huggins test specifically for methyl mercury in the bloodstream? Is it possible to differentiate between mercury and methyl mercury by a blood test? Did you ask yourself that before deciding Huggins was right? I don't know, myself. I'm asking because if the two can't be differentiated then whatever Huggins thinks about the amount of conversion or damage in the body when methylb12 is present is pure speculation. A mercury load is a mercury load and will still make people sick, without any of it being methyl mercury.

    The fact that some people get worse on B12 before they get better, and the fact that it takes many months for the blood profile of some people to improve I think indicates that conversion to methyl mercury in the presence of B12 is NOT the problem. If it were the problem then people would keep on getting sicker and their blood profiles would never improve unless the B12 (or mercury) were completely withdrawn.

    Instead, what is more likely is that people who are carrying a high mercury load are sick anyway, and also many of them are B12 deficient, because many if not most people are. So when they add B12 and it starts up the beneficial physiological processes that have been dormant, the individual becomes sicker because of detox, unaccustomed changes in biochemistry (including increasing hormones and neurotransmitters, etc.), other deficiencies in nutrients necessary to work in synergy with B12, etc.

    Even without taking B12 and without any of the mercury load being suspected methyl mercury, unaccustomed changes in biochemistry are enough to tank anyone. It's happened to me.

    But honestly, I think we're coming from the same place. I am NOT saying potential mercury toxicity is something you should blow off, or that mercury load isn't a factor when people are sick with things like CFS. Mercury is poison, whatever form it takes. It's not like methyl mercury is toxic and plain old mercury is benign unless it comes into the presence of B12. We should do what we can to eliminate mercury, period.

    What I *am* saying is that by overstating the possibility of methyl mercury conversion in the body when in the presence of B12, people could be needlessly scared away from B12. That would be a really big shame.

    IMHO if you're scared of mercury you're better off chelating for it while trying some B12. If you don't like the B12 and you think it's causing all your problems (rather than mercury), then by all means stop taking it. But don't be scared of it and not try it because of some remarks that may be based on flawed logic and an incomplete understanding of the facts.
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2014
  9. manna

    manna Senior Member

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    hi there, it seems that any counter argument is automatically scare-mongering. i think people should have all sides and should decide for themselves. if a person takes what anyone says at face value without researching themselves then they're lost from day one aren't they? i'm genuinely interested to know on what else you feel hal is wrong on.

    obviously not :? surely i am just giving more info so folk can make an informed decision.
    i believe the affects of methyl mercury, from b12 administration, was gauged by how it affected the general blood picture, i.e. mineral content, lipids, protein etc...not on the presence of methyl mercury. blood picture is not a test tube and results cannot be fabricated. he may have mis-interpretted of course.
    i haven't decided huggins is right, or you or freddd and i won't either, because that would be enquiry over. his thinking is based on what he sees as his understanding of bloodwork, whether thats speculation is up for question.
    the notion is based on interpretation of blood work which i'll take over your guesses for now, but you could both be wrong.
    could be...or could be what huggins is suggesting..

    i haven't stated anything at all let alone overly so. ive shared the thoughts of another. having read hal and maybe too much on health in general, lots of things he says, more so than any other "expert" ive encountered, have rung true and stood the test of time. of course he and i might be deluded...its for everyone to decide for themselves.
    yes don't be scared off. im not sure you've shown it to be flawed logic or an incomplete understanding of the facts but im open to the idea. i don't want to be right but nothing you've said has changed anything for me because i hadn't concluded any way...only a closed mind is certain.
     
  10. Leopardtail

    Leopardtail Senior Member

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    My personal view would be if you are healthy, don't mess with it. I am assuming you are well enough to work and have a social life when you say 'healthy'. Personally I needed to supplement NADH for only three months and my body completely rectified my B3 status without any further need. People react differently.

    I would like to know why you are reacting so badly to so little B3 though.
     
  11. Leopardtail

    Leopardtail Senior Member

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    Manna,

    would you post some published references to his work (ie something from a medical journal) so we can take a closer look at his arguments please. I would like to know more about them.

    thanks,

    Leo
     
  12. manna

    manna Senior Member

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    i'm not sure hes ever been published in a medical journal. you could maybe approach him yourself or do some net research. i certainly don't ask that anyone take anything i say as factual. but if you really would like to no more then im sure you shall.
     
  13. whodathunkit

    whodathunkit Senior Member

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    @manna, don't go away mad. I'm not going to debate this any more because we've both made our points and I believe we're basically on the same page. Huggins has done more than anybody else to improve the science of dentistry, and I'm actually on the same page with most of what he says. The methyl mercury thing being something I differ from him on. I haven't read him in a while so honestly can't say any more without refreshing myself, which I don't have much time for right now.

    Your main point was that methyl mercury formation could be a concern when taking methylB12.

    My main point was not to be scared away from a great supplement like methylB12 over what is likely a very trivial concern, especially when considered in light of the overall effects of mercury toxicity.

    I think we both like alternative therapies and B12. :)

    If you'll read my other posts around here you'll see I'm very much in favor of people making their own decisions and not doing what someone else tells them just because they've been told. People do need to be presented with facts, but your first post

    was not factual, and instead was vague and a little scary. If I wasn't familiar with Huggins and this issue, your post would probably have rattled *me*, given how much B12 I currently use.

    Further, I was merely illustrating that you can't take remarks like that at face value, even when the information comes from a well-known health professional like Huggins. Sadly, it seems that many of them frequently take the fact of their expertise in one area (in Huggins' case, dentistry) and try to generalize it into other areas where they have no expertise (in this case, a researcher's area of expertise, such as accurately hypothesizing results in human physiology from what happens in a test tube). A couple classes in micro and organic chem while in med school does not a researcher make.

    Finally, I have seen too many discussion boards get in a roil over vague and scary posts like yours. I know you were trying to be helpful, but doesn't change the fact that it *was* vague and scary. I was just trying to mitigate that, if possible.

    It wasn't my intent to offend you any more than it was your intent to scare anyone. Can we be friends? :)
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2014
    South likes this.
  14. whodathunkit

    whodathunkit Senior Member

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    I would, too. I may try the B-complex again in another month, just to see what happens. I'm also going to get my ammonia tested. AND this discussion helped tip me a little farther in favor of having my DNA tested.

    I am well enough to work, and plan to try to start exercising again tomorrow. I keep crashing myself with exercise because I still have an unrealistic view of my limits. In my head I'm still 25 with no endocrine problems, and it jars me sorely when reality clashes with that self-image. :lol: But hope springs eternal. I'll get it right one of these days.

    You mention social life. I wonder: when we flake out of life for an extended period of time because of health issues, do we ever really get the social life back when we get healthy? Sadly, when I consider whether I'd rather go out with friends on a Saturday night or read Game of Thrones and go to bed early, bed and GoT wins hands down. :thumbdown:
     
  15. manna

    manna Senior Member

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    im in no way mad, angry or similar and was thinking also that we had debated it enough for all points to be made

    i still think its a fair point, all things considered. and thankyou for noticing that i was not being conclusive; "could". to me, you can say anything so long as you're not conclusive or aggressive. if anything, respectfully, you're bering dictatorial as to what is, to you, acceptable input. something i no doubt do on topics im passionate about.

    yes but hal might be right, and if so, then folk should be warned and if that scares them then thats not the fault of the information. truth often does cause upheavel, not that this is that. hows that quote go...the truth is bitter at first and sweet later whilst a lie is sweet at first and bitters later. how a person reacts to something reveals more about them than what they've reacted to. just illusatrating that what is right doesn't always fill you with joy. and i'm people too and id like to hear about what b12 might do...
    i don't like, nor dislike, b12. hal could be wrong but then so could you. if i didn't think i had the tools i need then regardless of what hal has said on b12, i'd try it any way, as my body knows best and i know when it knows. that said, hes going on blood work, which isn't theoretical in any way. im actually more retiscent about b12 since bringing it up here today.

    hmm i would ask which bit wasn't factual but were not debating anymore so i won't :p the "50 x" bit could be wrong as that was from memory. it might be right that my first post should rattle you, it might not be...one can only present the picture as they see it. how it affects other people is their choice, no? that goes for offense too, which i never made, i don't think. perhaps there were too many good points?

    feel freee..but ive already pointed out that it wasn't hypothesizing from results achieved in a test tube but from using his indepth experience and knowledge on how to read blood tests for gauging the affects of b12, on the blood, post administration. he stated that blood pictures sometimes took months to stabilze following b12 administration.

    i literaly do not understand what was vague or scary about the post. im thinking thats all you have left to throw at me?
    i wasn't offended. bestys forever ever yeah :D i hope i haven't stuck my chest out...peace~
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2014
  16. saint

    saint Senior Member

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    I READ ERIC'S STORY ON 'HOW I RECOVERED' CAN YOU PLEASE TELL ME IF THERE IS AN UPDATED PROTOCOL ON B12 AS THIS POST IS OLDER.

    thx
     
  17. saint

    saint Senior Member

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    ALSO - I'M A LITTLE MIXED UP ON THE DOSAGES. FREDD SAID HE TOOK A LOT, BUT I COULDN'T FIND WHERE HE GAVE THE EXACT AMOUNTS OF EACH OF THE 2 FORMS OF B12. I READ THROUGH SO MUCH MY BRAIN GETS TAXED. IT'S HARD TO LOCATE THE BOTTOM LINE OF HOW MUCH HE TOOK. AND DID HE TAKE IT TWICE A DAY? WOULD APPRECIATE CLARIFICATION. THX MUCH.
     
  18. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    @saint It's easier for us to read if you don't write in caps. It tends to make this reader, at least, feel as if you're panicking, and makes me feel breathless in response!

    The protocol as documented by Eric at howirecovered is up to date. The only possible difference, which I didn't search out, might be that over the past year Freddd has recommended lowering dosages of other B vitamins to very low dose complex. I take a total of 25mg B complex in divided dose, AM and midday. Make sure there is no folic acid in any complex you use.

    Here's a set of guidelines posted by someone earlier, which I've made a few modifications to. Yes, you should be using divided doses. I take my Mfolate early AM, midday, PM. I'd been afraid of sleeplessness, but that never occurred.


    There are, however, some corrections to be made to this list, which I’ve indicated by striking through the original, and added a bracket to the potassium info. You may need to start the folate at less than 800 mcg. I don’t have in mind what you’re already taking. If you need less, or are just starting up, you can cut those tablets into quarters.

     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2014
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  19. saint

    saint Senior Member

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    Sorry about that - but your read me well - I WAS panicking! i had a rough weekend - I had detoxed off of morphine & went on LDN, then pain flared terrible after a few days - I don't know why.

    After reading through posts, I thought maybe the mb12 ab12 was causing me to regain feeling again, or I was healing, like what Freddd or Eric said happened to them.

    I had surgery to repair nerve damage in August 2013 to try to repair damage done by a butcher doctor in 2005. It felt like someone was cutting me open in the incision on my stomach/ hip without anesthesia.

    Then, my neck - where almost all of my fibro pain is, was going into acute spasms. I was miserable. I read through, and re-read through all the posts trying to figure it all out until I cried.

    I'm having major surgery in a few weeks & I am not ready for it. I'm trying to get myself into some kind of better shape, so my stress level was so high I went back on morphine - figured they'll be putting me back on it in a few weeks anyway.

    Thanks for your response.

    1. I just began Jarrow CarniTall - that has the fumarte in it. Will that do? I've been taking for about 2-3 days now.

    2. I have the Jarrow mb12 5,000 mcg. - I took about 5 of them & dissolved under tongue for 45 minutes (Didn't Eric or Freddd say they took a large amount like that, or did I mis-read it?)

    3. I took about 4 Source Naturals dibencozide 10 mg. & dissolved under upper lip at the same time.

    4. I took TMG which has 400 mcg. follinic acid in it - but now they're saying to NOT take follinic acid?

    5. I take Klaire Labs VitaSpectrum which has Metafolin and L-5 Methyltetrahydrofolate 400 mcg in it. Will that do?

    6. I attempted Rich V. protocol before & have Metagenics Intrinsic B12/ Folate which has folic acid & 5-methyltetrahydrolfolate with cyanobobalamin (which I think Fredd or Eric said isn't a good form. Is this correct?

    7. I was taking NuMedica B-Replete on and off which has L-methyltetrahydrofolate/ follinic 800 mcg.

    I WAS irritable, anxious, had muscle spasms, & insomnia (in spite of taking meds to make me sleep). I have magnesium/ pottasium krebs chelate - maybe because I didn't take that I was getting the spasms & neuropathic (nerve) pain - or maybe it was because my body was healing. In any event, I'll take the potassium mix today.

    The list of symptoms of low B12 rang a bell: I have muscle spasms, & I can not tolerate any odors whatsoever. I'm a vegetarian, & if my husband cooks meat, I have to run the air cleaner & air the house out. I smelled mold in our bathroom & kept telling him & he didn't smell it. Finally he took the shower door off & there was a mold colony under the track. I smell every little odor.

    Can I get your feedback on this?

    I was also going through chills & then sweats - know that can be a sign of morphine detox as well, but I didn't see on the list of things. Have you come across this?

    Also - what is your view on taking MSM? I read it helps with leaky gut - that I think I may have & also with allergies, which I have bad.

    Thanks again for any help. Sorry for hyper message. I'm overwhelmed, and my fibro doc said I can't handle anything because I have no immune or adrenal function. I do alright until I get overloaded by a few things, then I can't handle; my system is so out of whack right now.

    Did you cure from this? If so, can I ask how you did it? I'm trying to gather all the information I can to try to figure this all out. I've walked the path - I know doctor's don't have all the answers, (at least that's been true for me) and some doctors have none. And some are positively dangerous.
     
  20. pela

    pela Senior Member

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    Saint, you have brought up several issues and questions. I am addressing only a few.

    Jarrow methyl B12 changed about 2 years ago and is no longer a recommended brand. Try Enzymatic Therapy B12 infusion or Country Life methyl B12 5000 mg instead.

    Anxiety, muscle spasms and insomnia that appear after beginning B12/folate may be due to induced potassium deficiency since potassium can be quickly used up as healing begins.

    For what it's worth-- most of my "adrenal" problems vanished when I began freddd's protocol. What I really had was a B12 deficiency.

    As a former vegetarian, I ask you to reconsider your diet. I believe that many or most of my health problems were caused by 38 years of vegetarianism. When I quit eating gluten seven years ago, I found my body wanted meat.

    If you are not currently taking MSM I would hold off a bit while you are trying other new things just so you know what works and what doesn't.
     
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