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B-12 - The Hidden Story

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Cort, Jul 26, 2009.

  1. Radio

    Radio *****

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    Freddd...Really good information here. I'm glad to see you only eat real, unprocessed foods, avoid dairy and supplemented with lecithin in the past. The thing that stands out from your post was the chondroitin & glucosamine sulphates you take. In my (Poisoning the mitochondria thread), I have discovered a possible sulphate deficiency could be the cause factor in many metabolic imbalances we see today. I have theorised supplementing with chondroitin & glucosamine sulphate patches could be a possible therapeutic treatment option. It's very interesting to see how you have utilized this in your own protocol. Acquired mitochondrial damage is a normal part of aging, but is accelerated in chronic fatigue syndrome and many other metabolic disorders. We must address this before complete healing can be initiated. Phospholipids replacement therapy and eating a super clean diet is the first critical step in repairing this damage. Chronic deficiencies and Methylation imbalance destroys the mitochondrial membranes and lead to the modern day diseases we see today. Please review this thread if you have a chance...I truly believe this is one of the missing links in the chain to recovery.

    Poisoning-The-Mitochondria
    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/poisoning-the-mitochondria.27790/
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2014
  2. howirecovered

    howirecovered Senior Member

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    I had an interesting related experience this week - after my chelation round I increased lipo-c which contains sunflower lecithin and I accidentally (or rather out of laziness) took an extra 600 mg of lecithin. To my surprise I had a strong increase in methylation that day/evening. It seems I am a bottomless pit for methyl donors considering that I already take 800 mg / day SAMe and around 2000 mg of sunflower lecithin and have been doing so for months.
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2014
    Radio likes this.
  3. mgd1972

    mgd1972

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    @Freddd
    @
     
  4. mgd1972

    mgd1972

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  5. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    HI Mgd,

    I would expect you to have a lot of the symptoms especially in groups 2 and 3 and maybe group 1 as well. What ones do you have? Let's look at the effects these things are having that you are taking.

    Version 1.2 12/08/2013

    Group 1 – Hypokalemia onset. Symptoms may appear with serum potassium as high as 4.3. May become dangerous if ignored. Considered “rare” with CyCbl (Cyanocobalamin) it is very common with MeCbl (methylcobalamin) and AdoCbl (adenosylcobalamin) and less so with HyCbl (Hydroxycobalamin).

    There does not appear to be a clear order of onset. The order of onset varies widely from person to person but many appear consistent for each episode for any given person. There tend to be more and more intense symptoms as it gets worse. Some people have ended up in the ER because of not recognizing the symptoms.

    IBS – Steady constipation, Nausea, Vomiting, Paralyzed Ileum,

    Hard knots of muscle, Sudden muscle spasms when relaxed, Sudden muscle spasms when stretching , Sudden muscle spasms when kneeling, Sudden muscle spasms when reaching , Sudden muscle spasms when turning upper body to side, Tightening of muscles, spasms and excruciating pain in neck muscles, waking up screaming in pain from muscle spasms in legs. Muscle weakness

    Abnormal heart rhythms (dysrhythmias), increased pulse rate, increased blood pressure

    Emotional changes and/or instability, dermal or sub-dermal Itching, and if not treated potentially paralysis and death.


    Group 2a - Both

    IBS – Diarrhea alternating with constipation, IBS – Normal alternating with constipation


    Group 2b – Either or both

    Headache, Increased malaise, Fatigue



    Group 3 - Induced and/or Paradoxical Folate deficiency or insufficiency

    These symptoms appear in 2 forms generally, the milder symptoms that start with partial methylation block and the more severe symptoms that come on as partial methylation block gets worse or very quickly with methyltrap onset.

    Edema - An additional thing I would like to mention. I would never have found it without 5 years of watching the onset of paradoxical folate insufficiency and trying to catch it earlier and earlier and to figure out what was causing it and to reverse it. For me the onset order goes back to the day of onset now with edema and a sudden increase of weight. I noticed that within 2 hours of taking sufficient Metafolin I would have an increase in urine output.


    Old symptoms returning

    Edema

    Angular Cheilitis, Canker sores,

    Skin rashes, increased acne, Skin peeling around fingernails, Skin cracking and peeling at fingertips,

    Increased hypersensitive responses, Runny nose, Increased allergies, Increased Multiple Chemical Sensitivities, Increased asthma, rapidly increasing Generalized inflammation in body, Increased Inflammation pain in muscles, Increased Inflammation pain in joints, Achy muscles, Flu like symptoms

    IBS – Steady diarrhea, IBS – Diarrhea alternating with normal, Stomach ache, Uneasy digestive tract,

    Coated tongue, Depression, Less sociable, Impaired planning and logic, Brain fog, Low energy, Light headedness, Sluggishness, Increase irritability, Heart palpitations,


    Longer term, very serious

    Loss of reflexes, Fevers, Forgetfulness, Confusion, Difficulty walking, Behavioral disorders, Dementia, Reduced sense of taste, bleeding easily




    Group 4 - HyCbl onset, degraded MeCbl onset, MeCbl after photolytic breakdown onset.

    Itchy bumps generally on scalp or face that develops to acne like lesions in a few days from start.
     
  6. mgd1972

    mgd1972

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    Hi Freddd,

    I find it hard to differentiate between new and perhaps recurring symptoms, but here is what I'm currently experiencing:

    Bad acne, across my forehead especially
    Irritability - e.g. Can't stand the sound of someone tapping their fingers
    Some muscle twitching (I try to take more potassium when I notice, usually 500 mg at a time, should I take more?)
    Increased fatigue (which may be from work, where I have been steadily increasing my hours)
    Increased headaches, often a sharp headache when I first get up in the morning
    Slight dizziness sometimes, particularly when I stand up quickly (this is not new to me, but more noticeable)
    Somewhat more constipated
    Slight nausea (but have had stomach flu in the family recentl, including me)

    Hard to say if these are worse than usual, but I also have

    Chronic sinus issues, runny nose
    Mouth sores
    Dry, dry skin including bad dandruff
    Achy muscles

    Looks like you are right - a lot of group 3. Should I increase the Methylfolate?
     
  7. Radio

    Radio *****

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    Freddd,

    I find this thread can be very one dimensional. Half of these symptoms could be related to gut dysfunction. We need to consider looking at the whole person in a more holistic way. My research points to dysbiosis and hydrogen sulfide overload as a possible cause of many of these symptoms, as well as acquired mitochondrial degeneration.
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2014
  8. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Radio,

    Gut problems are approximately universal in this whole business, and lots of symptoms, no doubt about it. I certainly had my share for decades, starting sometime in elementary school. There are multiple possible causes of just about every symptom we speak of here. For 55 years my docs all used the divide and hopefully conquer routine and failed completely. So of my 200 symptoms my neurologist picked out several sets of neurological symptoms and had 3 or 4 diagnoses. My internist came up with a whole lot of separate things. The gastroenterologist picked out another set and staked out his territory. The urologist staked claim to another group of symptoms. The neurosurgeon had his favorites. The orthopedist was the only one who couldn't pick out anything current to work on but pointed out a bunch of old injuries, damaged disks, mashed vertebras and other things.

    There is an old Sufi story of the 4 blind men and the elephant. Each of them identified the elephant as something different by feeling the leg, the side, the trunk, etc. because they could not see the whole of it.

    A number of researchers have pointed out that there are over 600 things that go wrong with b12 deficiencies, including all the folate problems. So, when something goes wrong that affects the repair and replacement of every tissue in the body, just about every enzyme system, every neurotransmitter, every methylation reaction, every ATP requiring reaction, where does one start?

    The story of my life has been to get hired to solve problems that in many cases the person has been told already that it isn't solvable.

    In one job after the DOJ couldn't find the evidence for prosecution and got a consent decree, we were hired to find the unfindable evidence not for a prosecution as that was over, but rather to protect the interests of the insureds. Like so many problems, the difficulty in finding the answers was caused by asking the wrong questions the wrong way. Taking calculus was most informative. A significant part of the course was about changing the problem from a form that couldn't be solved to one that could be solved.

    Instead of looking for the pinpoint solution for each of 600 separate biochemical malfunctions, 200 symptoms or 10-20 separate diagnoses as my multitude of providers had during the years of no results, I looked for the one thing that could account for 200 symptoms. There was only one vitamin that spread it's influence that widely. That turned out to be "b12" which actually turned out to be two forms of b12 and l-methylfolate and l-carnitine, the deadlock quartet. The "most limiting factor" turned out 4 items in a mutual deadlock.

    In the situations caused by that deadlock or any part of it, hundreds of symptoms can be cleared up which simplifies the problem tremendously. A damaged gut, a damaged immune system and antibiotics can lead to even worse problems. The methyltrap state appears to possibly be where some of autoimmune reactions start. For instance, the IF autoimmune reaction appears to be caused by the deficiency and then change it rather than start with the autoimmune reaction. The longer a person has the deficiencies the more likely to have IF antibodies. The autoimmune occurrences appear to be a result rather than a cause. Then they cause their own secondary damages. Hashimoto's also is thought to be a result of b12 deficiency.

    The deadlock quartet appears to get mitochondria and methylation going. Then after the mitochondria start function then the next step is a proliferation that increases the density of mitochondria after which muscle tissue starts growing. The inflammation in the gut starts being relieved within days. Immune functioning starts correcting in hours, as soon as methyltrap and methylblock is relieved.

    With these 4 items plus cofactors hundreds of symptoms, even more hundreds of biochemical malfunctions all start reversing. This usually simplifies the situation tremendously. Often hundreds of symptoms start changing and fading. What remains are the clues to the damage. The things that are the result of continued deadlock by any or all of the four items continue on regardless of other treatments.

    I can't think of any other nutritional items that have the chance of correcting hundreds of biochemical malfunctions, hundreds of symptoms in every part of the body starting within days. If problems remain with the gut as other things heal and correct that is a clue. Also, as everything else appears to work better with the deadlock quartet in place, the odds of finding the items needed appears to go up as fewer things remain.

    Please, add more dimensions to the understanding. Where it is needed is of course the people that don't heal quickly and well in response to the deadlock quartet, who have something different and/or additional going on. There are lots of damages that occur that are beyond correction by correcting the original deficiencies. These get very complicated. Getting hundreds of items out of the way could make them easier to solve.
     
    whodathunkit and Radio like this.
  9. shah78

    shah78 Senior Member

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    st pete , florida
    How many Home Runs can you hit in one post. It's pure poetry, Freddd. Funny though. It may take a fellow methylation junkie to truly comprehend the genuius involved here. Wow! to quote Garth and Wayne in WAYNES WORLD: "I am not worthy" to even read such wild and accurate ideas. Keep these riffs going. WOW!
     
  10. shah78

    shah78 Senior Member

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    st pete , florida
    Its funny Radio, that you were the one who lite Fredd's fire on this one.I only found that out when I scrolled back up to reread Freddd's post again. Good work,as usual.
     
    Radio likes this.
  11. shah78

    shah78 Senior Member

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    st pete , florida
    "Hashimotos is thought to be the result of a b12 defeciency". By who" other than you, Freddd? (and me) That's pretty funny! Now of course you are absolutely correct!. Methylation did in fact "CURE" my (non hashimotos)hypothyroid in less than six weeks.This was confirmed by allopathic lab results confirming the far more important subjective and objective markers. I OWE THAT SOLEY TO YOU! thank you.
     
    Radio likes this.
  12. knackers323

    knackers323 Senior Member

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    Hi Radio how did you correct your dysbiosis?
     
  13. Radio

    Radio *****

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    Hey Knacker,

    Look for my next thread...Freddd gave me some home-work to do.... :bang-head:
     
  14. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Shah,

    I did what amounts to saturation reading on b12. Along the way both Hashimoto's thyroiditis and IF and parietal cell antibodies were both mentioned over and over as being suspected of being b12 deficiency caused. A number of other autoimmune diseases look like they could be connected to methytrap as opposed to partial methylation block. So are multiple cancers including colon cancer. A number of people, not a lot, including yourself have now reported reversal of hypothyroid with these supplements. I was diagnosed hypothyroid at age 8 back in the mid 50s. You are most fortunate to have caught it in time. Good health to you.
     
  15. shah78

    shah78 Senior Member

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    st pete , florida
    Actually ,I am absolutely positive I came out of the womb hypothyroid. So if 58 years is "catching it in time", so be it.So let's recap. Your mad scientist" Fredd protocol "cured a 58 year long term chronic thyroid condition in less than six weeks, for about $15.
     
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  16. Radio

    Radio *****

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  17. shah78

    shah78 Senior Member

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    st pete , florida
    Absolutely a huge connection. but I've been gluten free since 1989. Freddd and I didn't fix the thyroid till December 2013. The old "necessary , but not sufficient" adage applies here.
     
  18. mgd1972

    mgd1972

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    @Freddd
    P.s. more questions for you, Freddd:

    - in what range should my Methylfolate intake be in, and do I need to increase as I increase the b12? Is it best taken over the day or,is all at once in the morning okay? Is 5-MTHF the right kind?
    - what am I looking for in a b complex? Other than no folic acid
    - how did you know I would have group 3 symptoms based on what I am taking? Too much b12? Do I need to change anything? I plan to add in zinc and probably e and a. Do you take a good multi or individual vitamins?

    Sorry for all the questions. I have read tons on this thread but I find a lot of it over my head. Brain fog doesn't help.
     
  19. Radio

    Radio *****

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    We need to limit active B-2, B-6 (P5P) to help keep Methyltransferase and CBS regulation in check. I have been researching methyltransferase role in detoxication of intestinal hydrogen sulfide. This could be a factor in the Mitochondria / Mast cell dysfunction.

    We need to heal the body in the right order to restore mitochondria function.


    The 4 keys to Recovery


    1.
    Diet low in fermentable substrates

    2. Maintain balance in pathogenic microbial over-growth

    3. Mitochondria / Mineral Support <---- Lipid replacement therapy

    4. Methylation / Support <--- Last step (Freddd's Protocol)



    Poisoning The Mitochondria part 2

    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/fermentation-in-the-gut-and-cfs.28325/

    Reverse-Mitochondrial-Damage 101
    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/reverse-mitochondrial-damage-101.28175/
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2014
  20. Radio

    Radio *****

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    RichVank,

    "Hydrogen sulfide (H2S) has been getting more attention lately in connection with
    CFS.

    As I think many of you know, the methylation cycle and glutathione are both parts of the overall sulfur metabolism in the body, as is the production of H2S.

    The various reactions that can produce H2S in the body include parts of the
    human metabolism, and also the metabolism of certain bacteria in the gut.

    The first place I heard about H2S in connection with CFS was from Dr. Amy Yasko, who
    emphasizes that people who have genetic polymorphisms in their cystathionine beta synthase (CBS) enzyme, along with a methylation cycle block, will tend to generate more H2S.

    I also heard about sulfur-related topics from Susan Owens, who runs the Yahoo
    sulfurstories group and the group about trouble with Epsom salts. On the latter
    topic, I have speculated that people who don't tolerate Epsom salts well may
    have sulfate-reducing bacteria (SRBs) in their gut, which convert sulfate to
    hydrogen sulfide. SRBs have been found in the gut in some people. As far as I
    know, the human metabolism does not have a pathway for chemically reducing
    sulfate, so I think the bacteria must be responsible for converting the sulfate to more chemically reduced species, such as H2S and eventually sulfite, and thus producing the sulfate intolerance in these people. Sulfate is the main form of sulfur normally excreted in the urine.

    In the human metabolism, the two enzymes of the transsulfuration pathway, i.e.
    cystathionine beta synthase (CBS) and cystathionine gamma lyase (CGL), aka
    cystathionase, are capable of producing H2S from cysteine or homocysteine.

    In my 2008 revision of the Glutathione Depletion--Methylation Cycle Block
    hypothesis, described in the set of PowerPoint slides in the files section of
    the cfs-yasko group's website, I proposed that cysteine becomes oxidized to cystine in
    the oxidative stress condition present in CFS, and that CGL then catalyzes a pathway
    starting with cystine that produces hydrogen sulfide and thiosulfate. I based
    this on research summarized by Martha Stipanuk, who has worked a lot in this
    area with rats.

    Marian Lemle has proposed that hydrogen sulfide is involved in CFS. I had the privilege of meeting her at the
    Reno conference in March, where we both presented poster papers. She is also a
    friend of Prof. Dick Deth, who works primarily on autism, and who is very knowledgeable about the sulfur metabolism. Marian got
    her paper published in the journal Medical Hypotheses, and she also presented
    her hypothesis to the federal CFS Advisory Committee last October. Marian didn't
    get into the biochemistry of how H2S is produced (she is a science writer, not a
    scientist per se), but she noted that the symptoms of H2S poisoning are similar
    to those of CFS, and that was the basis for her hypothesis that H2S is involved
    in CFS. I thought this was interesting work, and I have interacted with her
    concerning how her work and mine might be connected.

    This past week, Dr. Kenny de Meirleir held a press conference and gave a talk at
    the M.E. conference in London about what he reported to be a major breakthrough
    in M.E. research. (By the way, Marian "hopped a plane to London" when she heard
    that the press conference was to be held, and she was there for it, and for the
    one-day M.E. conference that followed.)

    Dr. de Meirleir and his group have found that hydrogen sulfide is elevated in
    the urine in the most severely ill M.E. patients, and his company is now
    offering a qualitative urine test for H2S. His view seems to be that the H2S is
    being produced by bacteria in the gut in the severely ill patients, and I think
    he is probably right about that.

    I think that we will eventually be able to tie all of this together, but it will
    take some careful lab work to nail it down.

    Here are some speculations about what goes on: First, the sulfur in the human
    body originates in the diet (and supplements, if they are used). It comes in as
    sulfur-containing amino acids (methionine, cysteine, cystine, and taurine), and
    also in the form of sulfate and a few other sulfur-containing species. The
    sulfur in whatever amount of H2S is produced, by either the human metabolism or
    the bacteria in the gut, must originate in the diet (and supplements) People who bathe in Epsom salts will absorb some sulfate through their skin.

    In a normal, healthy person, a lot of the sulfur-containing substances are
    digested in the gut and are absorbed into the blood, while some remain in the
    gut. Also, some are transported into the gut via the bile, from the liver.
    Bacteria in the gut therefore have access to some of it, and I think we are all
    familiar with the rotten egg smell that can be associated with flatus, which
    comes from hydrogen sulfide. So it is not unusual for bacteria in the gut to be
    producing hydrogen sulfide.

    It is quite common in CFS that there is dysfunction in the digestive system.
    This can include low stomach acid, slow gastric motility, insufficient secretion
    of pancreatic enzymes, insufficient secretion of bile, gluten or casein
    sensitivity, fructose or lactose intolerance, candidiasis, dysbiotic bacteria,
    intestinal permeability (leaky gut), a variety of other food sensitivities,
    secretory IgA deficiency, protozoal or helminthic parasites, and others.

    Under these circumstances, I think it is quite likely that less of the
    sulfur-containing substances will be absorbed into the blood, and more will be
    metabolized by bacteria in the gut. The results would likely be less methionine
    available for the body's use (including for the methylation cycle), and more
    hydrogen sulfide produced by bacteria in the gut, which can be absorbed into the blood, have
    toxic effects on the cells of the body, and be excreted in the urine.

    As I noted in a recent post, some of the people who have not responded to the
    simplfied treatment approach for lifting the methylation cycle block appear to
    be low in methionine. If there is not enough methionine available, the
    methylation cycle will operate slowly, even if the partial block has been
    lifted, because there is not enough "cargo" to be carried around this cycle or
    to feed the transsulfuration pathway.

    I think this fits in well with what Dr. de Meirleir has reported. If
    sulfur-containing substances aren't being absorbed into the body, they would be
    available to feed the bacteria in the gut.

    So what does this mean for treatment? I think it means that if a person is
    treated early enough in their illness, when their gut is still functioning
    relatively well, the simplified treatment approach is likely to work. If their
    methionine is low, they may also need to supplement it, or to increase their
    protein intake in general, perhaps together with betaine HCl to augment stomach
    acid and digestive enzymes to help break down the protein in the gut, so that
    the amino acids can be absorbed.

    If a person is severely ill, so that the digestive system is no longer able to
    deliver much nutrition to their body, then I think it is likely that the
    hydrogen sulfide level in their urine will be elevated, as Dr. de Meirleir has
    reported, because the absorption of the sulfur-containing substances will be
    lowered. In these cases, it seems reasonable to suspect that many of the
    serious symptoms that are experienced are effects of hydrogen sulfide. Also in
    these cases, there may need to be intravenous feeding until the gut is in better
    condition, and the simplified treatment approach may not help until the gut is
    in condition to absorb nutrients, and the methionine level is high enough that
    the methylation cycle is being fed with it.

    So how do we know where to draw the line between cases in which the simplified
    treatment will work, and cases that will require additional efforts? I think
    that measuring the methionine level in a urine amino acids test is one thing
    that can be done, and perhaps the H2S test being offered by Dr. de Meirleir's
    company would be another way to gauge this. This is all very new, so we don't
    have experience to go on yet, but I do think all of this will fit together."

    Best regards,

    Rich
     

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