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B-12 - The Hidden Story

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Cort, Jul 26, 2009.

  1. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Knackers,
    Things can hurt without damaging the teeth. This quick effect can be prevented with Sensidyne toothpaste that blocks the tubules that are under the level of the enamel. Perhaps it does damage but erosion and decay are not painful until they are deep. This happens in minutes to hours to lots of people for lots of reasons. That is why there are toothpastes for people with this happening. This is what my dentist told me. Also the nerves become more sensitive within hours as the nerves wake up with MeCbl.

    I'd be dead years ago if I had let some tooth pain stop me.
  2. lefti2003

    lefti2003

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    @Freddd

    Hi Fred,
    Thanks for taking the time to answer everyone's question. I appreciate your help very much. I am working on week 2 of the protocol. I do not take the full 5mg methylb12 but have worked up to 4mg. I purchased the 1mg and have been splitting it at first in 1/4's then halves to work up to 4mg. Yesterday I took 4 1mg pills. They seems to last much longer then the 3mg dibencozide. Last night and today I feel some pain in the tip of my left ring finger. Is this normal? Another thing I began taking methyl b12 in 1/4's for a few days before taking anything else. I noticed that my right nostril had some discomfort, It made me sneeze and I could feel the mild pain go up from the right nostril to the head area. It seems like some kind of channel or meridian from Chinese TCM theory. What are your thoughts? Also what are your thoughts about b6? Can one take too much methylfolate? At the end of week 5 can we start dropping something, that is what if we do not really need the methylfolate or at least that kind of dosage and how do we know? Also I read in previous posts about b12 and adrenals. It sounds like b12 helps adrenals but can we in addition support the adrenals with some tonics. Do you know anything about the power of celtic sea salt. I just started reading about it.

    Take care,
    Lefti
  3. Leopardtail

    Leopardtail Senior Member

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    I liked this post Mike,

    it has occured to me that those who have 'fast onset' ME might actually be 'over-methylated' (it wears your system out if you are) and respond badly whereas those with slow onset might be 'under-methylated' and benefit. There are genetic defects that can cause other methylation producing ME like symptoms (without actually being ME).

    The other obvious issue is that if you raise Methylation but do nothing about ATP production, then you raise demand for ATP but not supply. The other obvious issue is that the body produces much more AdenosylCobalamin than it does MethylCobalamin so that has to be considered when supplementing.

    As for hydroxocobalamin, my feeling like yours is that people with long term ME do not have the ATP available to process it into the active forms.
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2014
  4. Leopardtail

    Leopardtail Senior Member

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    Lisa there are some B-Complex tablets on iHerb that contain modest amounts of MB12 MFolate and other B Vitamins, perhaps you might do better with those? (Less stuff, better balance)
  5. lefti2003

    lefti2003

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    I guess experimenting is ok if the side effects are reversible. My concern is that you take too much of something too fast where it causes some irreversible damage. Is this possible with the protocol? I am looking to increase my b12 levels since they are low around 480 pg/mL in a safe manner with little to no side effects. If it is done slowly so be it. Would I gain any benefits if I just took say 1mg Methyl B12, daily or every other day? How much methylfolate would be required and is 3mg dibencozide ok?

    Thanks
  6. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Lefti,

    The longer the neurological damage is left untreated by continuing to starve the body of MeCbl, AdoCbl, l-methylfolate and LCF, the more likely the damage may be permanent.

    I was severely deficient for decades in my nervous system and to a lesser extent my body, until I got up to a level that could heal my CNS to a degree. That is why I am not in a wheelchair and a whole lot more. However, 30mg a day injected just barely holds me in equilibrium some months away from a wheel chair. Deterioration starts within 24-36 hours after my last dose.

    MeCbl and other vitamins, whatever is "most limiting' can deadlock methylation and ATP, can make people "sick" by inducing other deficiencies as methylation and healing start. Low potassium and low methylfolate are a large part of that for the large majority of people. The most common symptoms are shown below.

    1mg of sublingual Enzymatic Therapy daily is quite adequate for most body healing for most people. When held for 45-120 minutes in close tissue contact in the mouth 15-25% can typically be absorbed. AdoCbl, l-methylfolate and L-carnitine usually all increase healing. Potassium is often needed. MeCbl by itself is only partially helpful and can cause lots of induced deficiencies.

    Side effects other than some induced deficiencies are rare and include:

    Dangerous side effects:

    1- Induced low potassium. Some end up in ER (as they reported somewhere here on the forum) and even dead is possible if not corrected with daily potassium, either oral or prescription (more dangerous time release form sometimes)

    2 - CoQ10 (which I take daily NOW), can cause suddenly very high blood pressure, within hours of taking a CoQ10 dose.

    3 - Occult Tetanus - MeCbl appears to block the neurotoxin of tetanus making it very hard to diagnose quickly.

    4 - Reverses Botox for about 24 hours per dose. 2.5mg injections are used to treat Avian Botulism

    You mention 3mg of AdoCbl. If that is Country life that has folic acid in it and can cause problems for many of us. However, if Anabol Dibencozide, 3mg may be a fine dose, about 1/3 of capsule). As with all the best level is determined by titration trials. Methylfolate needed to correct all folate deficiency symptoms can vary from under 800mcg to over 30mg (30,000mcg) depending upon how your body handles folates, how much b1, b2 and b3 you take and if and how much folic acid, folinic acid and/or vegetable folate depending upon your own body's actual responses. There is no fixed answer to any of these questions. The methylfolate amount needed is not dependent upon how much MeCbl or AdoCbl is taken.


    Version 1.2 12/08/2013

    Group 1 – Hypokalemia onset. Symptoms may appear with serum potassium as high as 4.3. May become dangerous if ignored. Considered “rare” with CyCbl (cyanocobalamin) it is very common with MeCbl (methylcobalamin) and AdoCbl (adenosylcobalamin) and less so with HyCbl (Hydroxycobalamin).

    There does not appear to be a clear order of onset. The order of onset varies widely from person to person but many appear consistent for each episode for any given person. There tend to be more and more intense symptoms as it gets worse. Some people have ended up in the ER because of not recognizing the symptoms.

    IBS – Steady constipation, Nausea, Vomiting, Paralyzed Ileum,

    Hard knots of muscle, Sudden muscle spasms when relaxed, Sudden muscle spasms when stretching , Sudden muscle spasms when kneeling, Sudden muscle spasms when reaching , Sudden muscle spasms when turning upper body to side, Tightening of muscles, spasms and excruciating pain in neck muscles, waking up screaming in pain from muscle spasms in legs. Muscle weakness

    Abnormal heart rhythms (dysrhythmias), increased pulse rate, increased blood pressure

    Emotional changes and/or instability, dermal or sub-dermal Itching, and if not treated potentially paralysis and death.


    Group 2a - Both

    IBS – Diarrhea alternating with constipation, IBS – Normal alternating with constipation


    Group 2b – Either or both

    Headache, Increased malaise, Fatigue


    Group 3 - Induced and/or Paradoxical Folate deficiency or insufficiency

    These symptoms appear in 2 forms generally, the milder symptoms that start with partial methylation block and the more severe symptoms that come on as partial methylation block gets worse or very quickly with methyltrap onset.

    Edema - An additional thing I would like to mention. I would never have found it without 5 years of watching the onset of paradoxical folate insufficiency and trying to catch it earlier and earlier and to figure out what was causing it and to reverse it. For me the onset order goes back to the day of onset now with edema and a sudden increase of weight. I noticed that within 2 hours of taking sufficient Metafolin I would have an increase in urine output.

    Old symptoms returning
    Edema

    Angular Cheilitis, Canker sores,

    Skin rashes, increased acne, Skin peeling around fingernails, Skin cracking and peeling at fingertips,

    Increased hypersensitive responses, Runny nose, Increased allergies, Increased Multiple Chemical Sensitivities, Increased asthma, rapidly increasing Generalized inflammation in body, Increased Inflammation pain in muscles, Increased Inflammation pain in joints, Achy muscles, Flu like symptoms

    IBS – Steady diarrhea, IBS – Diarrhea alternating with normal, Stomach ache, Uneasy digestive tract,

    Coated tongue, Depression, Less sociable, Impaired planning and logic, Brain fog, Low energy, Light headedness, Sluggishness, Increase irritability, Heart palpitations,


    Longer term, very serious

    Loss of reflexes, Fevers, Forgetfulness, Confusion, Difficulty walking, Behavioral disorders, Dementia, Reduced sense of taste, bleeding easily


    Group 4 - HyCbl onset, degraded MeCbl onset, MeCbll after photolytic breakdown onset.

    Itchy bumps generally on scalp or face that develops to acne like lesions in a few days from start.
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2014
  7. lefti2003

    lefti2003

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    @Freddd can you explain in more detail your statement methylb12 and other vitamins blocking ATP. What can we fo to ensure nothing goes wrong? Test our potassium levels? How often? Anything else? If I stop methylb12 do I have to still continue the methyl folate and potasium for a while?
    Thanks
    Lefti
  8. lefti2003

    lefti2003

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    @Freddd how do we prevent group 4?
    I do feel some pins and needles moving around and itching.
    Thanks
    Lefti
  9. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Lefti,

    MeCbl doesn't block ATP. The 4 items, AdoCbl, MeCbl, L-methylfolate and carnitine (LCF at 90% OR ALCAR at 10%) depending upon the specific person.


    If just MeCbl is taken, then the 4 way deadlock doesn't break on MeCbl. Instead it breaks at the second least available item. I have seen some people try taking 1 item at a time and find up to 20 other deficiencies on the way. That is why I suggest to people to start all the basics, a low dose b-complex, A, D, E, C, magnesium, zinc, and many others. Then start MeCbl, AdoCbl and L-methylfolate together. Then often on the 3rd day after methylation starts (often within 1 hour) the low potassium symptoms start. Also, the donut hole folate deficiency symptoms start too. There are at least 6 independent layers of healing and one can start healing on one or more levels and have to take methylfolate from several other levels to continue the healing causing low folate symptoms on that level. So those two things usually need to be balanced to stop the deficiency symptoms before adding carnitine. Sometimes the methylation won't start until the carnitine is added (ATP is generated by AdoCbl and carnitine, if the other items needed are present. There is a second group of critical cofactors that can be started or increased if methylation and ATP are not started up. They include Zinc, magnesium, vitamin D, SAM-e, TMG, D-ribose and potentially any vitamin and other items at times.

    MeCbl deficiency symptoms usually start worsening 2-3 days after the last dose. Stopping and starting over and over makes things worse and makes it almost impossible to tell what is happening. Potassium and methylfolate are no longer needed after healing is stopped. That puts the body back into partial methylation block and/or methyltrap and/or partial ATP block.
  10. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Lefti,

    I was dying when I started MeCbl. I was quite sick and had been in methytrap and partial ATP block for 17 years before, and was 11 years into Congestive Heart Failure. I have injected MeCbl for years and learned the hard way. MeCbl in a water solution (saline) breaks down very quickly to HyCbl. I found 10 minutes accumulated exposure to room light in a vial was enough to make it ineffective. One minute in a syringe does the same. This itching is specifically tied to the bumps forming under the skin and itch even before they erupt. General sub dermal itching (In the bottom of my feet and palm of my hands generally) is more likely low potassium.

    I wrap my vials in foil and also my syringes. If you can see the red color it is deteriorating.

    MeCbl that is effective will increase the feeling of neurological problems, it isn't causing them. It increases the strength of neurological signals so everything intensifies. I felt more pain in more exquisite detail within an hour of starting MeCbl. It takes all of the deadlock quartet to have a chance to heal a lot of the neurological symptoms, and zinc and omega3 oils and about everything else. It is the most difficult layer to heal. The itching, specifically sub dermal that is utterly maddening because there is no relief can be often be low potassium. If a few hundred mg of potassium with a glass of water stops the itching, sometimes several such doses depending upon how low, then that may be one of your early low potassium symptoms. An oral dose of potassium only lasts a few hours before it goes into tissue or is excreted. People with kidney damage may not be able to handle potassium well. Special caution is also needed by diabetics.
  11. lefti2003

    lefti2003

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    @Freddd if I stop methylb12, adnosylb12 and l methyl folate and just do the basics with B right Mag and zinc and do that for dome time can I expect some healing? Also how much mag? Should calcium be taken and how much? You mention zinc but shouldnt it be tsken with copper? What do you mean by donut hole folate?
    I eat a banana every day sometimes two. I take 3 of the potassium pills. Today I had coconut water that has 610mg pottasium.
    How do you know methylation had startef and what does that mean?
    Thanks
    Lefti
  12. lefti2003

    lefti2003

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    @Michael Dessin
    How did you get sick? What did you do to get better? How long was the turnaround? Anyone hear about Celtic salt? If you stop the methylb12 and adnysolb12 do you still have to take pottassium and methylfolate and for how long?
    Thanks
    Lefti
  13. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Lefti,

    A study of coconut water done last year, and it might have been Consumer's report, found that much of the coconut water contained nowhere near what was claimed.

    Bananas, while good, suffer from the same thing all food based potassium suffer from, a 14 hour delay between consumption and peak serum level from them. Then the second problem is that when insulin is released for rising blood sugar the potassium goes rapidly into tissue. Tissue absorbs potassium rapidly and releases it slowly. The serum potassium lasts a very short time. Some people have to take 3-4 tablets every 3-4 hours to NOT have problems from low serum potassium. One person was in the hospital at the ER recently, posted somewhere on PR, with low potassium symptoms. First test showed it at 4.x. Two more tests over the next few hours showed it dropping to something like 3.2. A person can have a perfectly fine tissue potassium levels and have dangerous symptoms from low serum potassium. The caution on prescription time release potassium, is that it is only for people who are not able to comply with regular oral potassium dosing schedules. It is a royal pain for me and a lot of people.

    I HAVE to take at least 3-4 doses of supplemental potassium daily totaling about 1600mg currently in addition to what I eat.


    if I stop methylb12, adnosylb12 and l methyl folate and just do the basics with B right Mag and zinc and do that for dome time can I expect some healing?

    As long as it takes you to go into partial methylation block. For me that happens within one day of a missed folate dose.

    How do you know methylation had startef and what does that mean?

    When I get neurological brightening. When I suddenly start dumping water instead of it accumulating excess (edema). Methylation is essential for cell division among other things. For instance if I take a dose of NAC or glutathione, my body goes into methyltrap within 2-4 hours as the active b12 is flushed from my body. When I go into paradoxical folate deficiency edema starts immediately. Potassium need drops within a day or two. Tissue formation is corrupted and I develop acne type lesions, sores at the corner of my mouth, IBS starts up and my intestines become inflamed. As it gets worse or lasts longer tissues all over my body become inflamed. When I go out of methylation block or methyltrap all these things start reversing in hours.


    Also how much mag? Should calcium be taken and how much?

    Yes, magnesium is a critical cofactor but how much has to be determined by you by titration. I take some calcium too, an ordinary supplement suggesting 2 tablets a day. If I take too much it increases spasms. Too little causes other problems that may not be immediately apparent. If you take a diuretic it can change the balance considerably, many causing loss of potassium and magnesium but not sodium. Perhaps calcium is affected also in some ways.


    What do you mean by donut hole folate?

    When a person takes MeCbl and/or AdoCbl, and a relatively small dose of l-methylfolate, methylation starts. More healing starts than can be maintained by the dose. The body "directs" folate to about 6 or 7 layers (researchers speak of "triage" for B12 and folate) separately. So some levels will develop deficiency symptoms at the same time as some layers are healing. When enough l-methylfolate is taken, all layers can have sufficient folate and all the folate deficiency symptoms disappear.
  14. lefti2003

    lefti2003

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    @Freddd what is the difference between the 1mg jarrow sublingual and enzymatic therapy 1mg?
    Would taking the 1mg sublingual along with the following multi from thorne (basic nutrients 2/day) be ok or B right with the multi? I am just looking for something to work slowly yet effectively in raising my b12 levels and have some healing as I do not know if all my symptoms are b12 related.

    Ingredients
    Two Capsules Contain:
    Vitamin A (3,000 IU from Mixed Carotenes and 2,000 IU as Palmitate) 5,000 IU
    Vitamin C (as Ascorbic Acid) 250 mg
    Vitamin D (as Vitamin D3) 2,000 IU
    Vitamin E (as d-Alpha Tocopheryl Acid Succinate) 20 IU
    Vitamin K (200 mcg as Vitamin K1 and 200 mcg as Vitamin K2) 400 mcg
    Thiamin (as Thiamin HCl) 50 mg
    Riboflavin (as Riboflavin 5'-Phosphate Sodium) 12 mg
    Niacin (as Niacinamide) 80 mg
    Vitamin B6 (as Pyridoxal 5'-Phosphate) 20 mg
    Folate (as L-5-Methyltetrahydrofolate* from L-5-Methyltetrahydrofolic Acid, Glucosamine Salt) 400 mcg
    Vitamin B12 (as Methylcobalamin) 600 mcg
    Biotin 500 mcg
    Pantothenic Acid (as Calcium Pantothenate) 45 mg
    Calcium (as Calcium Bisglycinate Chelate) 30 mg
    Iodine (as Potassium Iodide) 75 mcg
    Magnesium (as Magnesium Bisglycinate Chelate) 20 mg
    Zinc (as Zinc Bisglycinate Chelate) 15 mg
    Selenium (as Selenomethionine) 200 mcg
    Copper (as Copper (II) Bisglycinate Chelate) 750 mcg
    Manganese (as Manganese (II) Bisglycinate Chelate) 3 mg
    Chromium (as Chromium Nicotinate Glycinate Chelate) 400 mcg
    Molybdenum (as Molybdenum (II) Glycinate Chelate) 100 mcg
    d-Gamma Tocopherol (from Mixed Tocopherols) 24 mg
    Boron (as Bororganic Glycine) 2 mg

    Thanks,
    Lefti
  15. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Lefti,

    The Jarrow MeCbl stopped being effective almost 2 years ago now for me and a of of others. The Enzymatic Therapy still works for neurological damage and the Jarrow does not. As regards the multi-vitamin you posted, the amount of some of the b-vitamins is enough to cause a huge increase in need for potassium and methylfolate and reduce healing. Also, the b-complex is often needed twice a day to control a lot of symptoms. As many of the factors need to adjusted separately having it in one combination doesn't allow reaching the best balance for you. I wish it were that simple. About half of the items you likely would need less of and the other half more, give or take a few. It certainly wouldn't work for me. It might cause too much methylfolate and potassium to be needed among other things. Fixed ratio multivitamins don't appear to work well for many.
  16. lefti2003

    lefti2003

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    @Freddd I have not slept well tonight. Thinking about am I taking too much potassium, since I was having some spasms. I took 3-4 over a few hours. Then I am thinking I am not taking any magnesium and is that a problem. This thinking is confusing. It could also be a combination of a thai ice tea I had earlier in the day making me stay up not sure? In any case if I stop taking everything for a few days, i.e methylb12, methylfolate, adnysolb12 the b right and potassium would spasms stop. How long would it take? The last thing I want to do is through my body out of some electrolyte balance. I had a dear friend pass away a few years ago from Lupus. She went to the doctor she was taking some kind of antibiotics for some virus or so they thought, she thought she was improving a few weeks later she went to the doctor and he tested her electrolytes and sent her straight to ER and never came out.

    Thanks,
    Lefti
  17. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Lefti,

    Stopping everything just puts you back in the boat of partial methylation block with no clues. So let's look at one of the things that has a pretty good chance of causing problems, B-Right. Based on that I would predict it wouldn't work. It has folic acid in it which can block 10x the methylfolate. So why not change the item that would predictably make things not work Why not give these things an honest chance of working? There is a page called THE 95% REASONS B12/FOLATE THERPIES DON'T WORK. Right off the top are "wrong" brands or items. I need to modify that and put B-Right specifically as one thing that will likely not work.

    Too much potassium is almost impossible without kidney damage. Most run into stomach intolerance long before a person is taking a real actual "too much". It can take a year of huge daily doses to increase your body level of potassium into the genuine "too much" category. You may need more magnesium. Stopping all the things might or might not stop spasms as the deficiencies cause neuromuscular damage that also causes spasms.


    So now, did you start with basics plus AdoCbl, MeCbl and Methylfolate until you got healing turned on? Then titrate potassium and/or methylfolate depending upon symptoms? I would get rid of B-Right because for me, the problems could never stop as long as I was taking it.
  18. lefti2003

    lefti2003

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    Hi Freddd
    I took only Vitamin D3 4000 IU, fish oil and Vitamin C 1000mg. I then began with methylb12 1mg (Jarrow) along with the 800ug Solgar Methyl Folate. I first started taking 1mg 1/4's the first couple of days. Then the whole 1mg piece. Then 1.5mg, 2mg, 2.5mg,3mg, 3.5mg then 4mg. Early on around 1.5mg I added the adenosylb12 3mg country life. I would take 3 doses of potassium. I also did the B-Right at around the same time that I added the adenosylb12 twice a day.

    Regards,
    El
  19. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Lefti,

    So there is another problem, Jarrow which appears to be relatively ineffective and country life with folic acid and b-right with folic acid. So my best suggestions is Enzymatic Therapy instead of Jarrow MeCbl, Anabol Naturals Dibencoplex instead of Country Life AdoCbl with folic acid. So 3 out of 4 items would predict ineffectiveness. I think that is the place to start, go to brands more likely to work based on lots of experience and trials. With this assortment you are taking it's not possible to know with any reliability what is happening, too many ways to go wrong.
  20. lefti2003

    lefti2003

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    Hi Freddd,

    Ok. I will try the Enzymatic therapy 1mg methylb12, It seems to be a chewable? The Anabol Naturals Dibencoplex is 10mg is this not too much to start out? Is there another brand with a smaller dose? What about a B-Complex with no folic acid? I have been feeling some pins and needles going around the body. It comes and goes. What is this? Will it go away? I have had some rashes/lesions on my head for a few years. They do not seem to go away. This is before starting this b12 stuff. This morning I took the methyl folate and potassium but no b12, did not have the chance. Is this ok? I will look for the products ASAP. I got a Calcium/Mag/Zinc combo from Solaray that I can add. Four pills gives Ca(1000mg)/Mag(500mg)/Zinc(25mg) and Glutamic Acid HCL 100mg. What do you mean here

    Group 4 - HyCbl onset, degraded MeCbl onset, MeCbll after photolytic breakdown onset.

    Itchy bumps generally on scalp or face that develops to acne like lesions in a few days from start.

    I have some redish marks on my face near my nose area. They are not itchy, but like I said do feel some itchiness/pins/needles moving around.

    If I make these changes what can I expect? Will I experience less reactions?

    For the potassium can I take 2,3 at a time or one every hour as needed? If I were to take 1 every hour that would be about 12-14 throughout the day.
    If I skip a dose of b12 like today and I have muscle spasms I can still take the potassium right?
    It seems that lack of potassium is more common then lack of methylfolate. Is this correct?

    Thanks,
    Lefti

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