1. Patients launch $1.27 million crowdfunding campaign for ME/CFS gut microbiome study.
    Check out the website, Facebook and Twitter. Join in donate and spread the word!
Phoenix Rising Adds Two New Board Members
Mark Berry introduces the new President of Phoenix Rising, Dr. Gary Solomon, and welcomes Professor Jonathan Edwards to the Phoenix Rising Board of Directors.
Discuss the article on the Forums.

B-12 - The Hidden Story

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Cort, Jul 26, 2009.

  1. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,543
    Likes:
    905
    Salt Lake City
    Hi Jpurneyman,

    The ratios come through titration.

    in one section theres talk of 1mg of methyl b12 being able to bind as much as 10mcg of B12.

    I have no idea what you are talking about. Please quote what you think you read.

    I need 10mg of methyl B12 (from a 5 star brand !) to get an effective dosage of 100mcg

    1mg = 1000mcg

    10mg of ENZT held for two hours can put 3000mcg into your blood serum causing a temporary serum level of 300,000 to 600,000 pg/ml Within 24 hours 99% will be excreted via the kidneys. About 25mcg could bind to with TC2 making HTC2, a few micrograms. However, 100mcg in circulation will also do the same thing except not have the CNS penetration.
  2. Journeyman

    Journeyman

    Messages:
    87
    Likes:
    21
    Re: 'the ratio's come from titration' - I understand that all this comes from titration but I need a starting point. Thus far I've been able to identify that a good starting point ratio appears to be 1:1 in terms of MeB12 to 5MTHF.

    Re: 'Please quote what you think you read' - I'm referring to the section 2. within the article 'Reasons why B12 and folate therapies don't work for many people': I've had trouble interpreting it and it might be down to the slight lingual differences between Australian and American speak... Having read your reply here where you speak of '10mg of ENZT held for two hours....' what do you mean in terms of TC2 and HTC2 - these are terms I'm unfortunately familiar with...

    I'm a person who does better to understand by talking in practical terms so let me know your thoughts on this approach.

    Having looked at the article 'B12 zones of healing by dose' I'm planning to achieve zone 2A healing which means I'll need at least
    2mg of meB12 and adB12 (to cover off any conversion issues)
    3200mcg of 5MTHF (noting that this appears to be a sensible ratio of almost 1:1 with B12) with 4 Solgar Metafolin tablets spread across the day to overcome the short half life
    _Some_ amount of LCF : am thinking of 425mg (half a Dr's Best tablet) per day and titrate around any symptoms eg: excessive stimulation from the krebs upregulation.

    Concurrent to all this I plan to take in 50mg of Zinc, about 500mg or Alpha Lipoic Acid, 750gm Vitamin C and whatever amount of Potassium Gluconate is necessary to offset donut insufficiency symptoms as I see them arise (I have had the acne breakouts within that classic 3 day timeframe the last time I commenced a methylation protocol)
    I will also include TMG because apparently its useful for complementing the methylation cycle for those such as myself with the BH08 mutation and cease the 200mg of Life Extension brand SAM-E I've been taking for months now, or at least start from nothing till I see what startup symptoms I might get...
  3. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,543
    Likes:
    905
    Salt Lake City

    Hi Journeyman,

    Do you know what false accuracy is. If I say I ate a 6 oz steak for dinner that is accurate enough for estimating the nutrition value and also defines the limit of accuracy. I might also say 1/3 of a pound with approximately equal accuracy. What I would give false accuracy is if I said that I ate a 6.00000 oz steak. That is entirely different.

    A 1000mcg MeCbl sublingual may need anywhere from 800mcg of L-methylfolate to 30,000mcg for sufficiency. 1:1 is completely arbitrary. 1:10 would be equally arbitray. If a person started with the 7.5mg dose of Deplin they might never experience induced paradoxical folate deficiency. The 1000mcg sublingual might actually deliver about 250mcg to serum while 1000mcg of L-methylfolate might deliver 800mcg to serum. Which ratio are you thinking about, nominal dose or delivered to serum?


    Concurrent to all this I plan to take in 50mg of Zinc, about 500mg or Alpha Lipoic Acid, 750gm Vitamin C and whatever amount of Potassium Gluconate is necessary to offset donut insufficiency symptoms as I see them arise (I have had the acne breakouts within that classic 3 day timeframe the last time I commenced a methylation protocol)
    I will also include TMG because apparently its useful for complementing the methylation cycle for those such as myself with the BH08 mutation and cease the 200mg of Life Extension brand SAM-E I've been taking for months now, or at least start from nothing till I see what startup symptoms I might get


    It might be wise to titrate the amount of zinc taken at one time with a meal as it can upset the stomach. Also. you will be told more if you wait for a while and start at 20mg or so and observe the difference after the other things are in place. 750 gms of C is more than 100x too much. I would suggest starting with 1000mg at each meal and increase gradually to avoid lots of gas and discomfort and some real blowouts. Again, TMG should be tried after all 4 deadlock quartet are in place again so you know what it's effect is and so as not to obscure the clues you would get otherwise. As you hopefully know the potassium and vitamin C can both interfere with folate absorption so the folate needs to be taken perhaps 30 minutes before eating. Iron can also block a lot of things including E. Postponing the SAM-e until everything else is in place and settled down you will learn a lot more.


    2mg of meB12 and adB12 (to cover off any conversion issues)
    3200mcg of 5MTHF (noting that this appears to be a sensible ratio of almost 1:1 with B12) with 4 Solgar Metafolin

    You might want to try taking 1mg of b12 at a time across the day. I find nothing wrong with the suggested amounts. In my experience it won't make any real difference in intensity.

    Some_ amount of LCF : am thinking of 425mg (half a Dr's Best tablet) per day and titrate around any symptoms eg: excessive stimulation from the krebs upregulation.


    I would wait to start the LCF until everything else settles down unless there is no startup. Then the TMG after you see how the LCF affects you. I suggest a maximum of 125mg (1/4 capsule of Drs Best which states mg including fumarate portion.) to start with and that might be the most intense experience of your life. TITRATE comfortably. This is the only one of the deadlock Quartet that has dose proportionate energizing up to 500-1000mg.

    Good luck.
    Journeyman likes this.
  4. Journeyman

    Journeyman

    Messages:
    87
    Likes:
    21
    It might be wise to titrate the amount of zinc taken at one time with a meal as it can upset the stomach. Also. you will be told more if you wait for a while and start at 20mg or so and observe the difference after the other things are in place. 750 gms of C is more than 100x too much. I would suggest starting with 1000mg at each meal and increase gradually to avoid lots of gas and discomfort and some real blowouts. Again, TMG should be tried after all 4 deadlock quartet are in place again so you know what it's effect is and so as not to obscure the clues you would get otherwise. As you hopefully know the potassium and vitamin C can both interfere with folate absorption so the folate needs to be taken perhaps 30 minutes before eating. Iron can also block a lot of things including E. Postponing the SAM-e until everything else is in place and settled down you will learn a lot more.

    I'm actually a zinc stalwart taking 25-50gm daily for the last 8-10 years so thats one thing I won't have to worry about thankfully. As for the 750gm quoted for Vitamin C : that should read 750mg - my bad.

    Thanks for the suggestion re: the TMG and SAM-E to commence after getting the titrations of the deadlock quartet right, and I like how you cover off the practicalities of taking these supplements. ie: consideration for the fact they're rarely taken on their own and so Vit-C should be taken separately... very useful to ensure no Folate is unnecessarily wasted.

    Speaking of practicalities: I note the suggestion re: dividing the LCF into quarters but isn't it a capsule? If it is indeed a capsule then what method should I use to accurately measure out the 1/4 sought? Any response you can provide on this will also address the same concerns I have over the Anabol Naturals Dibencozide I plan on purchasing. This comes in just a 30 capsule pack and from another thread here (pretty sure it was in the Active B12 protocol thread, I might get some shocking startup symptoms if I take the full 10mg capsule in one go. If it is indeed a capsule, how do you preserve the remaining 3/4 content in a state that it won't lose its potency. For example, some capsules I have for other products lose some enormous percentage of their active content if they're broken and then left exposed to the elements for even just a few hours...

    I feel an order coming on : )
  5. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,543
    Likes:
    905
    Salt Lake City
    Hi Journeyman,

    Shaking 1/2 or 1/4 of a capsule onto a spoon is an approximate thing. It doesn't have to be more precise. There is not an experiential difference between 1mg and 10mg of Active b12 of either form. The AdoCbl has a much smaller response typically. I HAVE to economize. I could take a whole capsule of AdoCbl but 1/4 or 1/2 more than does the job. I just put the capsule back together with the rest still in it and in the dark in the jar for next dose. The first 100mcg absorbed makes about 80% of the total possible difference because of the ratio of the new level to the old body level. It will never be like that again though it can take awhile to diminish. Going from 1/10% to 10% is a 100x change that will never happen again as an example. Taking more doesn't change that.
    Journeyman likes this.
  6. mariedc

    mariedc

    Messages:
    2
    Likes:
    0
    Hi Fredd,

    I am an admirer of your knowledge of B12 and am wondering if you could shed light on the situation of my daughter, 20 and answer some treatment questions. She has chronic stabbing pain in her knees and back and deep achey pain in her thighs and calves. She has difficulty going up and down stairs and often just walking. This is much worse when she has an infection, which is fairly often. Frequently she has to use a cane. (Will note that she is of average weight.) She also has shortness of breath, severe anxiety, fatigue, and insomnia, as well as light sensitivity and blurry vision that is sometimes double. In a wide smile the right side of her mouth doesn't go all the way up. She often has tremulousness in her fingers and drops things. At times she has electric shock feelings in her body. After a four year hiatus from seizures and AEDs, they recently resumed and she is back on medication.

    Neurologists have wanted to dismiss everything as psychological except for one thing: she has hyperreflexia in her knees and now in her ankles. The best theory going is B12 deficeincy, but they are not finding the results convincing: B12 is 453 (down from 880 two years ago and 575 one year ago), HCY 15.4 (folate 9.1), but MMA is just 49. I am thinking the latter may be low because she was on antibiotics for all but 12 days of the three months before she was tested, including three days of 1000 mg Clindamycin just before the test. I can find very little about the possibility of B12 deficiency where B12 is not really low and only HCY is elevated. But I did see a post somewhere from you that said high HCY indicated mcobalamin deficiency, while high MMA indicated acolablamin deficiency. I could not find anything else on the internet describing this. Are there any references for it?

    By the way, she had a CRP of 22 twice last year six months apart. I was interested to see you list elevated CRP as associated with B12 deficiency. Doctors dismissed this (as well as the high HCY) as "nonspecific," but I am thinking if she were a 50 year old male they would have been all over these test results and just didn't know what to make of them in a 20 year old female.

    In any case, we have just found a doctor willing to oversee B12 therapy and who will give injections. The latter is a must have for my husband who comes from a country where B12 is prevalent and injections are standard. I plan to supplement in between with your sugggestions for methylcobalmin, methylfolate, and B complex. My questions with regard to treatment:

    1) You recommend supplementing with acobalmin. But if she does not have high MMA and is really just deficient in mcolbalamin, and not acolbalmin (per MMA results), would this be advisable?

    2) You recommend supplementing with potassium. She takes 100 mg of Spironalactone (to deal with acne caused by high testosterone) two times a day, and I under stand that Spirona increases potassium. In light of that, would potassium supplementation be inadvisable? She will have complete bloodwork this week and I can check the potassium level.

    Much thanks for any help.
  7. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,543
    Likes:
    905
    Salt Lake City

    Hi Mariedc,

    1) You recommend supplementing with acobalmin. But if she does not have high MMA and is really just deficient in mcolbalamin, and not acolbalmin (per MMA results), would this be advisable?


    First, it can do no harm. the MMA results CAN'T signify sufficiency, just breakdown dangerous levels of deficiency. The AdoCbl is necessary for healing the nerves as all 4 of the Deadlock quartet. It also needs the omega3 oils for making myelin to repair the nerves. Hyperreflexia is indicative of serious damage being done.

    Read http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/the-stages-of-methylation-and-healing.21725/
    and look for where the CNS healing is described as are each of the other layers.

    I bet she has a lot of other symptoms. If she doesn't have any symptom except hyperreflexia then it probably has nothing to do with b12. So what are her other symptoms.

    Ok, High CRP and HCY. Hcy is as specific for MeCbl/methylfolate/p5p as MMA is for AdoCbl and//or L-carnitine fumarate. High CRP without infection is often an AdoCbl deficiency item. Non-specific but a bunch of non-specific can get very specific. If you order the right brands etc. I would expect that you will likely get the desired responses if she is indeed deficient. If she isn't these things will make no difference.

    At times she has electric shock feelings in her body.

    Demyelinations, also a b12 (AdoCbl) deficiency possibility.

    Consider this to be very important to reverse while it still can be.
  8. mariedc

    mariedc

    Messages:
    2
    Likes:
    0
    Hi Fredd,

    Thanks for your responses. She does indeed have other symptoms, which I have become hesitant to list with doctors, as it just seems to feed their insistence everything must be psychiatric as there are just too many of them. The hyperreflexia and high HCY, CRP are inconvenient for them in this regard so they tend to dismiss. Neurologists seem much more concerned about the resumption of seizures (something they can get a handle on and give meds for) than they do about the hyperreflexia, which they haven't been able to explain. Her severe anxiety so far has been totally unresponsive to a variety of SSRIs but the pdocs keep insisting that's because they haven't found the right one or the right dosage or whatever. I am skeptical and have become convinced that the doctors who pride themselves on strictly following evidence-based medicine claim success because anything that doesn't fit the paradigm of double blind controlled studies they outsource to the psychiatrists, who in turn can say there is nothing wrong with their approach it is just a matter of running through all the meds until they find one that works.

    Symptoms include occasional angular chelitis, orthostatic hypotension, dizziness upon getting up, chronic nausea and vomiting (controlled by Zofran 2 X day), abdominal pain, poor position sense--on examination she can't tell if her toe is being pushed up or down--although vibratory sense appears to be intact, occasional numbness of body parts (eg hand, ear), severe anxiety, occasional nonpsychotic hallucinations, poor memory, shortness of breath, tender calves, vision deterioration, loss of concentration, arm and leg weakness with pain in the latter, occasional electric shocks, severe insomnia, constant fatigue, and I am sure I am forgetting others. On Sally Pocolochok's list, I came up with 25 to 26 points.

    The resumption of seizures also seems suspicious--while in the past she occasionally had urinary incontinence with them, she is now getting fecal incontinence as well. She also sometimes has urinary incontinence that appears unrelated to seizures. Her brain MRI is clear, but a spinal MRI showed a cyst-like area extending from T3/T4 to T7 described as subarachnoid septations possibly indicative of previous infection. One neurologist said probably nothing, while another said perhaps a spinal fistula. I am wondering if subacute combined degeneration possible.

    From the link you sent me, it definitely would appear that the acobalamin is called for in addition to the mcobolamin, particularly in light of the high CRP--perhaps the MMA result was affected by abx. Will ask new obliging doctor to re-run along with CRP. Will also look into the L-carnitine and definitely will do the fish oil. I haven't been able to read the link within the link you sent but will do so.

    The link's discussion of deficiency vs. insufficiency was also of interest. It seems odd to me the doctors pay attention only to the latest absolute number to see if there is deficiency or not and ignore trends--B12 going from 880 to 575 to 450 over two years would seem to indicate something is going on that should be addressed--perhaps stores are being drawn down without replacement--but they just want to focus on the latest number. I am in a business where trend is considered as informative as (and often more informative than) an absolute number so I find this puzzling.

    Once again, much thanks for your expertise.
  9. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,543
    Likes:
    905
    Salt Lake City
    Hi Mariedc,

    Doing the tests again won't help. The tests can't be used to show sufficiency. That is part of the mythology and why they are so confused by what looks like Sub Acute Combined Degeneration. You can treat it better than they can since they will use CyCbl or HyCbl which will not help.

    Because of the anxiety we can know the limbic system is likely damaged. This means that effective b12s may have much stronger than normal affect. The really troubling one is the L-carnitine fumarate. It can cause huge mood reactions. However it is also needed for healing and truly tiny microtitrations are needed. This can be worked through and it hasn't been going on very long though they are all twiddling their thumbs while Rome is burning. There are nothing but oddities in how they interpret this. I have SACD in remission to a great deal. I think it would be a good idea if you would like to talk about this privately to message me.
  10. finalgates

    finalgates

    Messages:
    79
    Likes:
    4
    freddd 8 mg methylfolate with 5mg enzy methyb12 is ok or dangerous(methyltrap)?and is it a problem to take 10mg adb12 with only 5mg methyl?
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2013
  11. I take in the morning 1000mcg Enzymatic therapy B12, 400mcg MTHF (quatrefolic), in the afternoon 1 capsule L-carnitine fumarate (855mg) and half a Dibencozide (4.3mg B12 from Source Naturals). The Dibencozide seems very high dose compared to the Enzymatic Therapy?? Does this balance seem OK? (I also take potassium, magnesium, mult B (no folic) and multiminerals daily)

    I have a moderate amount of energy but do crash from time to time. I havent been sleeping quite as well (waking at 4am) and get hot from time to time. no particular other symptoms

    Could @fredd or anyone suggest a change to the balance of my deadlock quartete? or which to try and increase first?

    Thanks
  12. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,543
    Likes:
    905
    Salt Lake City
    Hi Finalgates,

    I doubt that methyltrap is possible with 250mcg of MeCbl. That happens at very low levels. 200 mcg of absorbed MeCbl can raise the serum level to the 20,000-40,000pg/ml for an hour. This is enough for every cell in your body to have it if needed except for some people in whom the CNS/CSF isn't easily penetrated by Cbl. 10mg AdoCbl and 5mg MeCbl sounds fine. If taken together and held for 2 hours a person could get close to a healing CNS penetration by both B12s. And if 8mg of Metafolin is what it takes to overcome deficiency symptoms, it's a good dose. Methyltrap happens at the other end, fighting to get 10 mcg of active b12. It CyCbl and even HyCbl that can contribute to methyltrap. Taking both Active b12s and folate every day basically assures that methyltrap and partial methylation block can't happen. Sometimes LCF is needed too, helping with the ATP end of things.
  13. finalgates

    finalgates

    Messages:
    79
    Likes:
    4
    thanks for reply freddd.so i will try this for some weeks and see.
  14. viggster

    viggster

    Messages:
    13
    Likes:
    14
    Washington, DC
    So my question is: How do I know if the 50mg methylcobalamin challenge "worked'? I've been on Freddd's protocol for about a month, adding in the basic 4 and do a bunch of other supplements (avoiding folate). This morning I held 10 Jarrow 5 mg methylcobalamins in my mouth for about an hour. I got pretty sleepy (which happened when I started the methylcobalamins). And maybe I felt a bit of my constant muscle pain recede. I know everyone is going to be different but if I'm getting the b12 into my CNS, what are some effects I might expect? Thanks.
  15. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,543
    Likes:
    905
    Salt Lake City
    Hi Viggster,

    Fist of all the Jarrow methylb12 hasn't been effective for about the last 18 months or so. It's results are useless.

    Before doing the 50mg test one should have reached equilibrium on 10-15mg a day of Enzymatic Therapy B12 infusion, some 2.5 t00 10 mgs of the Anabol Dibencoplex daily, got the l-methylfolate and potassium titrated to no deficiency symptoms, be stable with l-carnitine fumarate at up to 500mg, have multi level healing underway and are no longer having any startup effects. Also, zinc, SAM-e, D-ribose and a number of other things need to be tried to see if they turn on healing. Only after everything is on board for all levels startup and are working, then to see if the CNS needs additional B12 penetration to achieve healing of damage of CNS type symptoms. one tries the test. However, unless all startup of the body and normal doses are done with, there is no way to detect the subtle results because they can be totally overwhelmed by any body reaction. I would expect that the 50mg trial would occur about a year down the road after everything has been set up for it so that if it does anything you can attribute it properly.
  16. viggster

    viggster

    Messages:
    13
    Likes:
    14
    Washington, DC
    Thanks much for the quick response. I'm obviously too impatient and need to switch to the Enzymatic B-12.
  17. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,149
    Likes:
    740
    Northcoast NSW, Australia
    Hi Freddd. I've successfully lowered my B vitamins, as well as LCF and TMG. My scalp outbreak and acne have resolved. But I'm still at 100 mg B 1,3,5, achieved by using 1/4 capsules of my Twinlab B1, 3, and 1/2 B5 capsules, + 33 mg active B2, .5mg P5P. What brand multi are you using? Or maybe I can manage to split my caps into more doses. Do you seek the lowest amount of B to "do the job", and how would I know, or is it obvious when I've gone too low? I'm more functional and comfortable than I've been for a decade, due, I'm sure, to Deadlock Qtet. But I still too easily fall into anxiety, impatience is a problem, and my physical endurance is increasing, but still prevents me from participating in the world outside my own space. Thanks so much. ahmo
  18. leela

    leela Slow But Hopeful

    Messages:
    2,400
    Likes:
    2,848
    Couchland, USA
    I cannot for the life of me search and find what are the components of the "Deadlock Quartet.
    Can someone please post a précis?
  19. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,149
    Likes:
    740
    Northcoast NSW, Australia
    leela, Deadlock Qtet: L-Carnitine Fumarate (LCF), Methylfolate; AdenoB12, MethylB12. This definitely did the trick for me, transformed my life.

    This might be the shortest of Freddd's explanation: http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...t-hole-insufficiency.22614/page-2#post-345537

    This is the long, comprehensive version:

    THE COMPLETE METHYLATION REVIEW Fredd Feb 2013
    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/the-stages-of-methylation-and-healing.21725/

    And here something re methylation/folate symptoms:
    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/the-stages-of-methylation-and-healing.21725/page-10

    And on the role of B vitamins:
    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/getting-back-to-balance.24134/ July 2013 Fred re role of B vitamins
  20. leela

    leela Slow But Hopeful

    Messages:
    2,400
    Likes:
    2,848
    Couchland, USA
    thank you so much, ahmo. i was driving myself nuts trying to find it. :angel:

See more popular forum discussions.

Share This Page