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B-12 - The Hidden Story

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Cort, Jul 26, 2009.

  1. nkm

    nkm

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    Have you been tested for Hashimoto's thyroiditis?

    I brought my antibodies right down using selenium (200mcg twice daily).
    Once you bring your antibodies under control, you can supplement tyrosine and this will help produce more of the active thyroid hormone (T3) [Selenium is also required to produce T3 so it really serves two purposes when Hashimoto's is involved).

    If you want Acetyl-L-Carnitine, check out this super bargain. I bought it for my Father to use:

    http://www.iherb.com/Primaforce-ALCAR-Acetyl-L-Carnitine-Unflavored-250-g-Powder/25324
  2. Gloria H

    Gloria H

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    In spite of all the posts I've read/copied, my info file on SAM-e was limited. Search of this site was hampered cuz entering SAM-e or SAMe in the search feature resulted in "The search could not be completed because the search keywords were too short, too long, or too common."

    So, getting along OK on the first of Freddd's suggested methylation supplements, L-carnitine fumarate, MeB12, Metafolin, AdB12 & Potassium, I decided to see if I'd get a rise [or as Freddd calls it "startup"] out of SAM-e. I took 400 mg of Swanson's SAM-e at 5:45 pm yesterday. At 2 am, my usual bedtime, I went to bed. I dozed off occasionally but at 5 am was still awake. So I got up & didn't get sleepy till 9 am. Now that's "startup"! Now I see Wikipedia said SAM-e can cause insomnia. I'll be taking SAM-e in the morning from now on. I'll titrate it by using part of a caplet & carefully resealing the remainder in it's foil dispenser. Wikipedia indicated SAM-e is most sensitive to breakdown from heat (not light?).

    Rich once told Fredd that if SAM-e gives startup affect, it means methylation had not been sufficiently turned before the SAM-e was taken. Is that how you successful methylators still see it? Blessings to you
    roxie60 likes this.
  3. Gloria H

    Gloria H

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    I scratched the idea of titrating that caplet of SAM-e because it's enteric coated!
  4. howirecovered

    howirecovered Senior Member

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    i had some reaction also from my first SAMe but I was careful to take it very early in the day, so no insomnia... I take two of those a day now and don't notice any more effects.
  5. finalgates

    finalgates

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    Delia likes this.
  6. nkm

    nkm

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    I use the 100mg tablets and cut them in half to get 50mg but next order, I'm going to get the 300mg tabs and cut into thirds to increase my daily dose to 100mg.

    NOW B12 seems a little different from the other sublinguals. I don't know how well it will get absorbed and I personally would recommend Solgar MethylB12 as the best-of-the-best for mB12 sublinguals.
  7. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Have you tried and A-B trial with Enzymatic Therapy? Last time I tested the Solgar they were not able to maintain the healing started by Enzymatic Therapy and symptoms started coming back unbearably within 2 weeks. At that IT WAS BETTER THAN MOST, maybe 3 stars. The same was true last time I tested NOW MeCbl.
    Hi Gloria,

    I found that I needed differing amounts of SAM-e after getting everything else established except where SAM-e is needed to kick things off.. I have done 200mg, 400 mg and 800mg trials multiple times and the amount needed by me is typically 400mg currently. It is enteric coated. We worked out a way to fake it, Russian doll style. Put the pieces of the tablet in a capsule in a capsule in a capsule getting them 4 or 5 thick and then the dissolving appears delayed sufficiently. It worked for the people trying it. It is definitely a morning thing. After equilibrium is reached it will have no noticable effect. We only feel the changes, the increases, and that fades quickly.
    Gloria H and Delia like this.
  8. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Daniele,

    READ THE BOTTLE. 855mg is 500 mg of l-carnitine and 355mg of fumarate. It does NOTHING to the thyroid except supply the mitochondria with fat for the AdoCbl to process.

    Drs best is made by Sigma tau and is excellent. Acetyl l-carnitine is effective for about 10% and blocks action on the LCF in 90%.
  9. howirecovered

    howirecovered Senior Member

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    Glad you are back Freddd !

    Have something strange to report and wonder if you've seen it before... I've been following your protocol since April so that's about 6 months and I'm taking every methylation support you've mentioned including 4 mg adb12, 4 mg mb12, 1600 mcg metafolin and 2000 mg LCF.

    A few days ago I increased my potassium from 2,200 mg to 3,000 and after 3 days at this higher amount I started experiencing a new wave of startup (my typical symptoms of lightheadedness and mild headache).

    The potassium was my most recent significant change, so I'm wondering if additional potassium is capable of boosting methylation in your experience?

    Other changes I made going back a little further include doubling adb12 from 2 to 4 mg 7 days before my startup symptoms and increasing folate from 1400 to 1600 mcg 14 days prior...

    Almost nothing makes me crazier than my muscle problems (which go back more than 10 years) and they were getting worse recently so I've been reading a lot about potassium and trying to figure out if more would help. My research is here. I think additional potassium is helping but even at 3000 I still have muscle tightness and small mild cramps which make it difficult to heal tendinitis.
  10. Journeyman

    Journeyman

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    As a person whose been using L-Methylfolate and Methyl B12, SAM-E, Multi B to some good effect for the past several months I'm now curious as to what further improvement I might notice through the addition of Adenosyl B12 as per the Deadlock Quartet theory proposed by Fredd....

    I've poured over the literature explaining it and basically I have a couple key question before I go out and invest in this new form of B12: How can I tell if I'm a person who makes adequate use of Methyl B12 or whether I might need Adenosyl B12 without trial/error testing? Surely theres SNP's that explain whether ones body would use methyl B12 appropriately else require the other form?

    Can someone point me to the vitamin brand reviews so I can see the rationale behind the existing recommendations re: CountryLife AdB12, Enzyme Therapy and Jarrow where the star ratings are given. Does it mention the performance of Life Extension Foundation products? I've a membership with them and so am particularly keen to know how their product rates. Especially since I'm about to invest in a sizeable order that will include their own unique form of Carnitine http://www.lef.org/Vitamins-Supplem...th-Glycocarn.html?source=search&key=carnitine to ensure I've got the 4 components of the deadlock quartet well addressed..

    On a related but slightly different note: I read from one of Fredd's posts that glutathione when supplemented can bind up the Methyl B12 and render it less effective. As a person lacking the GSTT1 SNP I have a serious interest in addressing my potential Glutathione shortage. Do I just need to trust that getting the methylation cycle up and running properly is the solution to producing more glutathione and that the Glutathione shortage will be remedied in keeping with improvements in the cycle thereafter? When I read all the complaints about startup symptoms etc. I thought supplementing Glutathione might be a sensible way to address any flare up's but it appears I might be able to save my money and just focus on getting the methylation cycle sorted?
    Delia likes this.
  11. Sea

    Sea Senior Member

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    I'm sure there are genetic reasons, but we don't know what they all are yet. From my understanding trial and error are the way to go with this one. If Adenosyl B12 makes a difference for you then you can probably assume that you are not making enough from the methyl B12

    For the B12 I can't point you to any reviews but several people have posted on here that they notice a huge difference between the Enzymatic Therapy methyl B12 and other brands. It seems that for those who need large daily doses they can notice brand changes very easily.

    For someone with maybe less need, or maybe better processing, the effect of different brands doesn't seem as obvious.

    The star ratings have been made by Freddd who is very methodical in his testing and is able to equate dose and effect for several brands in his own body. He also has communication with others who follow his recommendations for trials and gathers their info in his ideas.

    If you're reading an early thread the Jarrow methyl B12 may be listed as 5 star but Freddd and others have noticed a change in it and it is no longer given that rating by Freddd.
    Journeyman likes this.
  12. finalgates

    finalgates

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  13. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Finalgates,

    The last time I tried NOW, 1mg of ENZY was superior to any amount of NOW MeCbl. However, as the MeCbl versions are actually different, I often got the best results by mixing brands. So 2mg of each might be superior to either brand alone. However, when the not as good brand gets to be too much it dilutes the better brand and performance decreases.
  14. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Journeyman,

    Below are the symptoms that basically didn't respond or respond well without AdoCbl and LCF. The LE products were tested by me 10 years ago. If anybody would like to do a new series of tests I'll post the procedures used. Lots can happen in 10 years. One brand that was great isn't. Maybe some of the others have improved.

    As far as WHO benefits, after saturation of MeCbl is reached and no more does any more, one can then try AdoCbl (Anabol). In my experience almost everybody who had a pronounced response to MeCbl will also have a pronounced response to AdoCbl, but not everybody. Most people do not appear to convert it as well as the common mythology would have us believe. In fact it isn't any where near what the mythology suggests.

    Glutathione does combine with free cobalamin (not protected in HTC2 or HTC3) purely chemically; no enzymes or ATP needed. Its a simple oxidation reaction and it reacts to the limit of b12 available within a couple of hours, just like cyanide or nitrous oxide does the same thing, also oxidizing and inactivating the MeCbl and AdoCbl. This happens when it reaches some unknown dose of supplemented glutathione. If you have enough b12 in the body one can then observe really the reddest urine they have ever seen short of blood.

    The tests were 10 years ago. The purpose wasn't to identify all the useless or not so good brands but rather to let people know the one or two that actually work as predicted. Unfortunately the only zero star brand at the time was popular and I had to name that one when people asked "why" it wasn't recommended.

    The lack of glutathione is a product of the methylation and ATP breakdown. When these processes are started glutathione gets made. The frequency of reports of "glutathione detox" and NAC "detox" give an idea of how many people are being blatantly damaged by it.

    I would also be inclined to say "deadlock quartet working hypothesis". It's not a theory yet. It is a pragmatic description subject to rapid refinement.

    These symptoms are what responded very well to L-carnitine fumarate AND AdoCbl for the first two items


    L-carnitine fumarate – AdoCbl – Metafolin - MeCbl



    weight loss involuntary
    muscular atrophy
    exercise does not build muscle



    L-carnitine fumarate – Metafolin – AdoCbl - MeCbl

    weight gain, watery fat
    edema


    L-carnitine fumarate – AdoCbl – MeCbl – Metafolin


    mild to extremely severe fatigue
    continuous extremely severe fatigue
    easy fatigability
    severe abnormal muscle fatigue up to and including apparent paralysis leading to death
    weakness
    muscle pain especially around attachment points to bones
    Eighteen severely tender muscle spots of FMS



    AdoCbl – L-carnitine fumarate


    exercise debilitates for up to a week, making things much worse
    accumulating muscle pains following exertion
    sore muscles throughout body
    lack of muscle recovery after exercise
    High urinary MMA



    AdoCbl – L-carnitine fumarate – Metafolin

    congestive heart failure
    Elevated CSF MMA
    Elevated uMMA

    MeCbl - AdoCbl – L-carnitine fumarate – Metafolin
    shortness of breath, oxygen hunger
    heart palpitations


    MeCbl - AdoCbl – L-carnitine fumarate

    extremely sore neck muscles reversing normal curvature of neck
    painfully tight, stiff muscles, especially legs and arms
    frequent muscle spasms anywhere in body
    weak pulse



    MeCbl - AdoCbl

    Confusion
    Disorientation
    Difficulty in word finding


    MeCbl - AdoCbl - Metafolin

    irritable
    depression
    SAD - Seasonal Affective Disorder
    mental slowing
    personality changes
    chronic malaise
    poor concentration
    moodiness
    tiredness
    mood swings
    memory loss
    listlessness
    impaired connection to others
    mentally fuzzy, foggy, brainfog
    dizziness - even unable to walk
    Vertigo


    MeCbl – Metafolin – AdoCbl – L-carnitine fumarate

    psychosis, including many of the most florid psychoses seen in literature, megaloblastic madness
    Alzheimer's
    delirium
    dementia
    paranoia
    delusions
    hallucinations - multisensory
    anxiety or tension
    nervousness
    mania
    Widespread pain throughout body



    A caution, those with anxiety and panic symptoms may respond with extreme moods of increased fear, anxiety, panic, anger rage, homicidal rage and profound depression, usually in repeatable sequences following LCF or ALCAR even at levels of 1mg oral. A micro titration of carnitine would be cautious. While most find the moods intolerable, certain persons have been able to tolerate these (both past) and current, to find they can fade after some months of consumption. A few people may find similar, maybe somewhat lesser, response to MeCbl or more likely AdoCbl. As these are less controllable than LCF which can be micro dosed, they should be considered first.


    Sexual related symptoms, both men and women – These responded with the most response to lesser responses in order to MeCbl, Metafolin (l-methylfolate), AdoCbl, L-carnitine fumarate

    reduced libido - loss of sexual desire
    loss of orgasmic intensity
    unsatisfying orgasms
    inability to orgasm
    loss and/or change of genital sensations
    burning genital skin sensation
    unable to feel aroused
    numb genital skin
    low sex hormones

    MEN

    In order of response – MeCbl, AdoCbl
    low testosterone men

    In order of response – MeCbl, Metafolin, AdoCbl, L-carnitine fumarate
    erectile disfunction men

    In order of response – MeCbl, Metafolin, AdoCbl
    low sperm count
    poor sperm motility
    Poor sperm quality
    no sperm


    WOMEN

    In order of response – MeCbl, AdoCbl
    low testosterone
    low estrogen

    In order of response – MeCbl, Metafolin, AdoCbl, L-carnitine fumarate
    post partum depression
    post partum psychosis

    In order of response – MeCbl, Metafolin, AdoCbl
    Frequent miscarriage

    In order of response – MeCbl, Metafolin
    False positive pap smears, defective cells
    menstrual symptoms
    Journeyman likes this.
  15. finalgates

    finalgates

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    thank you.i will try enzy so.
  16. Journeyman

    Journeyman

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    I appreciate the frank and clear reply Fredd.. and WD on promoting a more positive 'can do' attitude here. PS - Are alternate versions of LCF appropriate or do you very specifically advocate the fumarate version. I'm currently taking LEF's 'L Acetyl Carnitine' which is a hydrochloride or some such...

    All the best
  17. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Journeyman,

    In this so far fumarate has about 90% of the strong responses and ALCAR about 10%. In me and many others any other form but fumarate appears to make the fumarate ineffective. The other effective one is the Jarrow liquid freebase carnitine. Both that and the Jarrow and Drs Best L-carnitine fumarate are made by Sigma Tau in Italy. The effective ones may be very specific. These have consistently the best resposnes.
    Journeyman likes this.
  18. Journeyman

    Journeyman

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    I really want to get moving now with ordering these quality versions of the 4 deadlock quartet components. I know that Enzyme Therapy seems the prime choice for the methyl B12, Anabo brandl for the adenosyl cobalmin, Dr's Best for the LCF but what about the methyl Folate?. I also understand that P5P is an cofactor and general B group vitamins so is there a Multi B which doesn't include the dreaded folate in its normal form (ie: non methyl versions)
    Additionally: alpha lipoic acid seems to be responsible for increasing the effectiveness of LCF by up to 50% ? so is there much variety in brands or is this like fish oils and you can largely just go for anything from the supermarket shelf?
  19. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Journeyman,

    Prior to a few years ago, there was no L-methylfolate of any type available. Then Merck developed a process for making a STABLE form of L-methylfolate and markets it under the brand name Metafolin. Merck enforces contract rules that says that the vitamin forms, aside from dose, must be of the same quality and characteristics as it's licensed prescription forms. There are several variations on l-methylfolate currently. I have only personally tried and run titrations with Metafolin. I take the Solgar Metafolin, about $13/100 800mcg at iherb. Amongst the vitamin brands of Metafolin, the inactive ingredient's may vary.

    I take the Jarrow Alpha Lipoic Acid extend, it's a bilayer tablet. I have never heard any comparisons by brand so I use a usually reliable brand. I take NatureMade B-Complex with Vitamin C, very basic and then add p5p. I have for now eliminated all the extras and will slowly increase them one at a time, round robin with weeks between each change.
    Journeyman likes this.
  20. Journeyman

    Journeyman

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    Nice work Fredd - and Jarrow's again for P5P or any others so I can complete my order?

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