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B-12 - The Hidden Story

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Cort, Jul 26, 2009.

  1. nkm

    nkm

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    I have found the Solgar methylcobalamin to be the most effective. I got no start-up responses from other brands but did with Solgar. I have trusted Solgar for a long time and they haven't let me down with the meB12 either.

    As of 3 days ago, I have added in 5mg Lithium Orotate and will up to 10mg tomorrow. When I used LiOr a few months back, it would cause me to empty my bladder a LOT...like, I would have a sip of water and feel the need to go. I read online some people have this effect.

    I have been on the MeFolate (5mg/day) and MeB12 (5-10mg/day) for many weeks now and although I can't say I really feel any better, I have found the LiOr hasn't caused the above side effect this time. Hence why I am going to try a 10mg dose.

    I am 30yo and have had CFS following a viral infection at age 8 so I understand it may take a long time for neurology, immune and endocrine systems will take a long time to repair but I am disappointed that I have felt really nothing in the last 6+ weeks of starting methylation protocol.
     
  2. howirecovered

    howirecovered Senior Member

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    what did you feel at the beginning when you started using the Solgar? have you added ny other methylation supports like carnitine or tmg? what are your symptoms?
     
  3. nkm

    nkm

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    When I first started the Solgar MeB12, I felt much more physical fatigue/fibromyalgia, total lack of drive, tinnitus increased, anxiety etc etc. None of the other MeB12's have had this effect. With ongoing use, these symptoms have come back to baseline but unfortunately, I can't say I feel better than baseline yet. Time will tell.

    I don't want to add in TMG because it has been shown that the BHMT pathway only exists in the liver and kidneys so trying to "shortcut" methylation doesn't work in the nervous system. I don't want to add carnitine or SAMe because that defeats the purpose of starting up the methylation cycle. Same goes for CoQ10 as this is also formed with the help of methylation.

    The one thing I'll look at adding after the lithium orotate has settled in at 10mg/day is AdB12. Last time I tried it, I had extreme volatility in moods/anger so I ceased it and worked on increasing MeB12 and now that I'm up to 10mg MeB12, I'll try the AdB12 shortly but I want to see what the lithium does first.
     
  4. howirecovered

    howirecovered Senior Member

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    i think adding adb12 next is the right move - seems to be the easiest one for many people to adjust to. i take 2 mg a day. maybe the lithium will smooth out your previous mood effects...
     
  5. daniariete2000

    daniariete2000

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    Sorry , I kindly ask you wich is the last updated basic product (with brand) suggested by Fredd to start the protocol . I really lost myself in all posts
    Thanks a lot

    Daniele
     
    Delia likes this.
  6. nkm

    nkm

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    Yes, I think I'll add in 2mg AdB12. It's now been over 2 months of the active B12 protocol and even with the addition of Lithium Orotate, I don't feel any better :(

    One thing to note is recently I changed to Jarrow 5mg MeB12 cos I wanted to finish off the bottle and over the last few days, I've felt much more tired and worse sleep and worse moods. This goes to show my initial response with Solgar MeB12 was not a one-off but now it is proven that Jarrow doesn't work for me at all. I switched back to Solgar from today.

    I've ordered some very basic stuff like tryptophan and 5-HTP and am going to see whether boosting serotonin levels will help me to sleep better and have more energy and get up and go. Even one of my laziest friends (the most sedentary person I know!) said I procrastinate a lot. I was shocked to hear this from him and it just goes to show how much this CFS crap really impacts our lives!
     
  7. nkm

    nkm

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    @ Daniele

    Sorry, I don't know where Freddd's latest protocol is posted but if you look at my case, the Jarrow brand he recommends does nothing for me. I think you just have to choose a product and try it out.

    I would recommend
    Solgar MeB12 (1mg and 5mg)
    Source Naturals AdB12 (8mg/tab...very easy to cut into quarters)
    Quatrefolic MeFolate (either Life Extension for the 1mg or Metabolic Maintenance for the 10mg)
     
  8. Sea

    Sea Senior Member

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    Freddd now recommends the Enzymatic Therapy brand for MB12
     
  9. daniariete2000

    daniariete2000

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    Hi ,

    I bought Anabol Naturals Dibencoplex 10.000 mcg and Enzymatic Therapy B12 Infusion 1 mg
    Fredd suggested me some time ago to start with 100mcg of combined cobalamines absorbed and then mfolate has to be increasd .How can I start with a so small dose ? Can you tell me please which dose exactly start for this 2 brand ?

    Can I assume the 2 supplements together under lips ?

    Thanks

    Daniele
     
    stridor likes this.
  10. howirecovered

    howirecovered Senior Member

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    how sensitive are you to supplements? How sick are you and how long have you been sick? what kind of responsibilities do you have in life?
     
  11. daniariete2000

    daniariete2000

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    I'm man of 38 y.o. and I've fibromyalgia since 13 years.
    I live alone and work as telecommunication engineer 9-10 hours a day.
    I'm under simplified methilation protocol (rick) since 2 months without results but also without side effects.
    I want to switch to Fredd protocoll..just bought supplements
    Thanks for help

    Daniele
     
  12. howirecovered

    howirecovered Senior Member

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    your background sounds relatively similar to mine - doesn't sound like you need to be as cautious as many others would. Still, since you work, you don't want to go too fast.

    I would suggest starting with 2 mg adb12 every morning - that's one quarter tablet of the Source Naturals. Those are easier to break so you may want to order them.

    After three days, try adding 2 mg mb12 divided into quarters and spread throughout the day. as long as you don't feel too wired, try increasing the mb12 by one quarter tablet every three days. If you start feeling wired, you may want to slow that down to every five days.

    After you get to 5 mg of mb12, I'd start adding folate starting with 800 mcg and then increasing by one quarter tablet (200 mcg) every three days.

    I'm guessing you may already be taking other supports like b6 etc. would be nice to know what cofactors you are taking and what you have ordered. when you add cofactors, you should hold off increasing adb12, mb12 or folate so you'll know what changes is causing what effect...
     
  13. nkm

    nkm

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    Hi Daniele,

    I agree with what howirecovered has said. The only thing I would watch out for is the adB12. Whenever I take it, even in small doses, it makes me very aggressive in terms of mood (I don't actually do anything aggressive but more anger outbursts and easily angered etc). I would personally do the methylB12 first and once that is settled in, add in a tiny dose of adB12.

    Also, have you tried any of the natural serotonin boosters?...L-tryptophan, 5-HTP or St. Johns Wort? Boosting serotonin has been shown to cause major improvements for fibromyalgia. This could be due to two reasons:
    1- when serotonin is low, the mind AND body are tense and therefore, muscles are not relaxed and give constant pain. 2- Serotonin levels regulate pain so when serotonin is depleted, pain is not modulated very well.
     
  14. daniariete2000

    daniariete2000

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    Thanks a lot for your suggestion.

    I ask you also where can I find the very last protocol of Fredd with exact amout,brand etc...I found lot of different changing reading this forum and I wonder if there is no definitive protocol. For example I bought Anabol Naturals Dibencoplex 10.000 mcg and Enzymatic Therapy B12 Infusion 1 mg only becouse I read on some post are the preferred brand now .

    Another question I have is if possible to assume adB12 and mb12 together under lip for 45 minutes.

    Dibencoplex 10.000 mcg is very big to split ?
    Enzymatic Therapy B12 Infusion 1 mg is very small amount so I need more tablet together ?

    Thanks to all

    Dan
     
    Delia likes this.
  15. nkm

    nkm

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    The "protocol" is about the use of ACTIVE (i.e. methyl) forms of folate and B12 and not so much the brand, which is more a personal preference of Fred's.

    Personally, I have found Source Naturals adB12 to be best. You can easily split the tablets down to 1/8th (giving you around 1000mcg dose) and the Solgar meB12 is by far the best I've tried. You can get 1000mcg and 5000mcg. I currently take one 5000mcg sublingual nugget daily.


    In addition to the methylation protocol, I feel I may a lot more help by boosting serotonin levels so I myself have started 5HTP (200mg at night) and St. John's Wort (300mg with breakfast). I have chosen this combo because 5HTP acts to produce (is the precurser to) the active serotonin molecule (5HT) and the SJW is natures own SSRI. I will slowly increase doses over the next couple of weeks.

    It's concerning for me that after 3 months on methylation protocol, I haven't had massive improvements, just some minor changes. I don't know if this is because I've had CFS since I was 8yo and my system has just developed "faulty" or if it'll take a much longer time to recover as I'm 30yo and the CFS has been present for such a long time.

    RE: LITHIUM OROTATE...WARNING!!
    OK, please don't read the heading as if LiOr is some sort of harmful, horrendous substance. LiOr has already been shown to be quite magical for many things but my warning relates to CFS.

    I started LiOr to see whether it would calm my constant, general anxiety and extreme social anxiety etc. I startedat 5mg and went up to 20mg per day. After about 10 days, I started losing what little drive I had and basically CEASED doing anything! I just sat around the whole day. If I thought of doing something, it would remain a thought and there would be ZERO ACTION!!

    I tapered off the LiOr and regained my low levels of drive to do basic chores etc. When I started 5HTP, within two days, I got a bit more drive and even though it wasn't huge, I was pleasantly surprised. This indicated that while LiOr is a great thing generally, for anyone with low serotonin activity (and possibly dopa and norep) LiOr will slow neurotransmission down too much and this will result in unfavourable effects.
     
    L'engle likes this.
  16. Gloria H

    Gloria H

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    Freddd’s Protocol – Getting Started

    as I understand it and in my own words. 9/27/13

    Assuming you already have the basics like Vitamin B Complex, C, D, calcium, magnesium, zinc and omega 3s in your supplements routine, start by testing:


    1. 1 capsule of L-carnitine fumarate on an empty stomach (available in about 400 – 800 mg capsules)
    If there are no new negative start up symptoms (like feeling super hyped & wired) keep
    taking it every day.
    If there are new negative start up symptoms (like feeling super hyped & wired), you’ll need to titrate up gradually until you’re comfortable with 1 capsule/day. That may mean taking 1/10 of a capsule. As your body gets use to having this long missing nutrient, you’ll gradually increase (titrate up) your daily amount to 1/5 capsule, then 1/2 a capsule etc. until you’re doing 1 capsule daily. You can take days or weeks to do this titrating. Don’t rush your body. When your body is use to 1 capsule of L-carnitine fumerate per day, continue that and start:

    2. 1 Enzymatic Therapy B12 Infusion (1,000 mcg MeB12) after breakfast, placing the tablet
    between upper lip and gum, for as long as it takes to dissolve. When your body is settled with
    this, start:

    3. 1 Solgar Folate (800 mcg Metafolin) with breakfast
    If there are no new start up symptoms (new headaches, rashes, irritabilities, anxieties,
    depressions, joint pains, muscle pains, insomnia, continue with this amount daily.
    If there are new negative start up symptoms (new headaches, rashes, irritabilities,
    anxieties, depressions, joint pains, muscle pains, insomnia) you’ll need to titrate up gradually until you’re comfortable with 1 capsule/day. Then continue the Folate and start:

    4. Country Life Active B-12 Dibencozide (3,000 mcg AdB12), after breakfast, 3 X week, placing
    the tablet between upper lip and gum, for as long as it takes to dissolve.

    5. Potassium (99 mg tablets) taken with a glass of water, as needed, anytime during the introduction of the previous 4 supplements, if new nausea, itching, heart palpitations, weakness, muscle spasms or cramps start happening. For some, several potassium tablets may be needed, several times a day.

    As you progress in this protocol, go to the following web site.
    http://howirecovered.com/active-b12-therapy-faq/
    There Eric provides well organized information that can save you from trying to find your way through the voluminous information on Phoenix Rising. It will help you understand Active B12 therapy and methylation.

    Eric says this about his web site, “I wanted to make it accessible to people without the time on their hands (or clarity) to read 2,750+ posts. So here, I’ve pulled out the discussion that might interest the greatest number of readers.” Thanks Eric!
     
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  17. howirecovered

    howirecovered Senior Member

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    Thanks Gloria! I have used my FAQ myself many times over the past few months.

    I've now finished adding all of the supports and methylation protocol is going very well for me - all I have left to do is continue titrating up folate and mb12/adb12. I'm now at 1600 mg metafolin and 3.75 mg (divided doses) mb12 with 2 mg adb12.

    Am so thankful to have found Freddd's methylation protocol!

    Don't get me wrong - it's not always a walk in the park. Every increase is a little uncomfortable and I often get mild headaches in the afternoons along with extraordinary fatigue after being unusually active for most of the day. It's like my body has a shut off switch now and when it's gets thrown, it's like a knockout punch.

    But those side effects from increasing amounts only last a day or two at the most.
     
    ahmo, Delia and Gloria H like this.
  18. Delia

    Delia Senior Member

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    I just found your site today and have been reading and reading. I came across one part of Fredd's protocol on your site about those of us who over mentholate vs those under mentholate, and all of the protocols seem to cater to the under metholators.

    I believe I fall in the over mentholate category and many of the supplements are bad for us (according to Fred's list) but nowhere can I find the answer/plan for us.

    I can't seem to find it on your site or even google anything.

    It's very clear there are differences for us, and the verboten supplements were among ones I've done terrible with. I just don't know how to find my way. I was on rich's protocol for a little over a year but I've been rendered bed ridden all year. Much worse than I have ever been.


    Thanks!

    And thanks for your site!
     
  19. daniariete2000

    daniariete2000

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    Thanks so much for your answers !

    Wich kind of L Carnitine Fumarate does Fredd suggest ?
    I would like to buy the Dr Best formula but 855 mg can be too much ?
    Do you know if it can interfere with subclinical hypotyroidysm (if think most of us have...)

    Daniele
     
    Delia likes this.
  20. howirecovered

    howirecovered Senior Member

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    I started with the doctor's best 667 mg tablet and cut them in half. Started with one half tablet...
     
    Delia likes this.

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