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B-12 - The Hidden Story

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Cort, Jul 26, 2009.

  1. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Xjhuez,

    Our whole b12 absorbtion system is built around extracting an exceedingly rare item available in parts per trillion in a few foods. It is optimized to get the first 5-10 mcg. Our bodies have evolved to concentrate and retain this exceedingly rare item. It is absorbed very efficiently via a complicated active system that in a natural circumstance, "if anything goes wrong, your fault , my fault, nobody's fault and you will die" (Big Jake). This is based on 50 years of absorbtion and serum studies on cobalamins and appears rock solid. Back in the 50s dozens of studies were done comparing oral with injectable for serum levels to try establish what needs to be done to keep people with a malfunctioning absorbtion system alive without consuming 2 liters of raw liver puree a day.
  2. PensacolaPete

    PensacolaPete

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    Ok, I hope I don't tick off the entire community by hijacking the forum and going off topic..........,buuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuttt......... I am some what confused about something you wrote about things to avoid while on a methylation regimen.I am sure it was from another thread, so, my apologies.

    Specifically, "glutathione and glutathione precursors such as NAC and glutamine, undenatured whey."

    So, that said, I just need a short answer, (unless you feel more elaboration is necessary):

    Does that mean/include whey protein supplements such as those that are powdered and sold in a jar?

    So many sources that I have read (however, I am the poster child for noobness)
    tout the benefits of glutathione.

    So hopefully you'll understand my confusion.

    I apologize in advance for my rudeness, and thank you in advance for clarification!

    I guess I should say I am someone who rarely if ever goes to the doctor, and I haven't been diagnosed with any condition and I don't suspect I am too far either side of normalcy at my age of early 50's.
  3. adyia

    adyia

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    A couple questions too.
    I spoke w/Dr. Neubrander's assistant today... in his opinion (and I assume he has reason to believe this) sublingual B12 is only about 5% usable, compared to the shots. So they use shots in their protocol. They are of the opinion that if you have a deficiency, the sublingual won't get your levels up the way shots will, and will do you little good. What do you guys think of this, is this accurate? He says the fact I'm responding at all with sublinguals probably means my body is so desperate for B12 and that even the tiny bit is helping, but I would improve more dramatically on shots.
    They do a lot of testing, like for MTHFR gene variants, methylation pathway, etc, to figure out what's going on with you. For those of you who have all that testing, is the info helpful? Has it changed how you follow the protocol?
    Oh, and he also says the mB12 shots are about $100/mos, this seemed expensive after reading what others pay for their self-administered shots. How do you get your shots so cheaply?
  4. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Adyia,

    I was paying $400+/month. I was injecting 10mgx3 doses per day to maintain CNS healing or treading water. I wasn't getting them cheap. I performed a whole lot of trials with sublinguals and injections, matching dose by how it affects urine color, injection to sublinguals. I gist of it that the brands tested for 5 star and achieving that were tested for absorbtion. With 45-120 minutes I found absorbtion, by urine colorimetry, to equal 15-25% typically, 10-33% full range. I also have found that by and large a 5 star brand of sublonguals is as or more effecti ve than most injections and that only the best of MeCbl injections equals the best sublinguals. I would be happy to discuss this with Dr Neubrander. I'm sure he hasn't talked with anybody who has run such trials and has for the last 8 years. If you are using Enzymatic Therapy B12 infusion and holding the tablet(s) under the lip for 45-120 minutes you won't get any better performance from a SC injection of up to 1 mg. However, it takes from 30-50mg to equal an 7.5mg to 10mg SC injection.
  5. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi PensacolaPete,

    I do understand your confusion. And I can't give you any answer you want. The one I will give you is a definitive maybe. Only you can tell by doing an A-B comparison.

    I am the poster child for noobness

    I'm not familiar with that condition.

    In the 50s it is estimated that 1/3 to 1/2 of [eople may have symtpoms responsive to active b12s or golates and even mores so in 60s. Less acid in the digestive system, whether from Previcid or otherwise can induce deiciencies. SO If you have no symptoms, I would say probavbly no problem. If you have "non-specific" symptoms that the doc says meanless, thoser are the ones that may indicate b12/folate deficiencies. Usually people have bunches of them but they have to start wirth the first bunch of only a few.
  6. PensacolaPete

    PensacolaPete

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    That's fair enough and good enough. Thanks.

    :lol:


    Of course what I meant by that was, even with all my reading, so much still goes over my head!
  7. cobain_justinsane

    cobain_justinsane

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    Hello all:

    I am looking for some guidance. I fell Ill with CFS/FIBRO/MS symptoms in 2009 after a long course of antibiotics for acne and taking CIPRO (I am well aware of Quinolone toxicity and beleive that it is playing a role in my health problems but feel that Cipro and a very stressful time in my life was the straw that broke the cammels back). On top of that I have depression, anxiety and panic and have dealt with pretty bad acne since I was 18 (Dairy and sugar free controls my acne but it has never truly cleared up). I am not disabled and manage to get by okay but my health challenges are really preventing me from living a normal life.

    I am a 25 year old male and for the past 2 years have been doing ozone saunas, eating a high plant based diet of nuts, seeds, quinoa, buckwheat, brown rice, tones of green vegetables, onions, garlic, no fruit except lemons and limes and red meat, chicken or fish a few times a week.
    I eat no sugar, dairy or gluten except on very and I mean very rare occasions.
    I have seen an alternative MD and am taking 20 mg of Cortef, 10mg DHEA and 60mg of Armour.I have worked on my gut health and feel it is in very good shape. And feel like I have detoxed quite a bit of the junk inside me. I take a digestive enzyme with every meal, chlorella, spirulina and probiotics. I also take magnesium, chromium and COQ10.

    All of this has helped me quite a bit but I have plateaued and then I stumbled onto MTHFR which I think may be the missing piece of the puzzle. My symptoms seem to be worse in winter especially the mental ones.

    23andME results.

    VDR BSM: +/-
    VDR TAQ: +/-

    MAO A R297R: +

    MTHFR C677T: +/-
    MTHFR A1298C: +/-

    MTRR A66G: +/-
    MTRR H595Y: +/-
    MTRR K350A: +/-
    MTRR A664A: +/-

    BHMT-08: +/-

    CBS C699T: +/-

    SHMT1 C1420T: +/-


    My Symptoms:

    -Panic, anxiety, depression (worse in winter, tolerable in summer)
    -Fatigue, though not severe
    -Tinnitus occasionally
    -Raynauds
    -Numbness /tingling
    -Muscle twitching
    -Poor memory/focus
    -Brain fog/derealization
    -Acne (since I was 18)
    -Hair Loss (since I was 18)
    -Gynocymasteia (since I was 15)

    I have a family history of Depression, Alzhimers, Bipolar, Anxiety, Heart Disease and Stroke.

    I received my results and was not at all surprised that I had MTHFR, I was actually releived because It potenntally explains some of my problems.

    I thought I had COMT because I got very hyper and anxious when I took Phosphatidycholine, and aceytl-l-carnatine.
    I also experienced increased depression when taking Zinc and P5P.

    I am concerned about MTRR mutations as I have a lot of those and are wondering how concerned I should be as I realize B12 is extemnely important and wondering if this mutation caused a deficiency in B12

    I am also conerned about the CBS pathway as I seem to tollerate sulfur well. I eat quite a high sulfur diet (onions, some garlic, broccoli, brussel sprouts) and at one point took MSM which I didn’t fell affected me negativly. I beleive I have a high intake of molybdenum as I eat a ton of sprouted Lentils and Mung Beans which are supposedly very high in molybdenum. Does it matter that I am +/- as opposed to +/+ and how should I go about treating the pathway. Also, any Ideas of why P5P could have caused depression or why Phosphatidycholine caused Anxiety?
    Is It possibly because I hadn’t addressed MTHFR at all?

    I would really like to begin treating the MTHFR MTRR as soon as possible but don’t want to cause any problems.Will I have to address CBS first? The CBS is waht confuses me quite a bit as I have educated myself pretty well on all of this but am looking for some guidance.
    If anyone can give me some solid guidance I would really appreciate it.

    One More thing I am wondering about is green vegetables, as I eat a lot fo them, lots of broccoli and brussel sprouts and I am wondering how much of a problem vegetable folate will cause for a paradoxal folate deficiency vs taking folic acid? Also when I start a protocol will I have to back off the veggies?

    Thanks a Million

    Andy

    PS if any more information is needed just ask.
  8. howirecovered

    howirecovered Senior Member

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    fish oil / omega-3 insomnia

    Hi all,

    I'm 44 and first saw a Dr. for fatigue at 17. Have begun the methylation startup process using Metafolin and MeCbl, experienced a setback (lightheadedness/confusion) and have restarted this morning with much smaller amounts adding AdoCbl (one 3 mg tab gave me a great kick this morning, now faded seven hours later).

    I'm using most of the essential supplements with the big exception of fish oil because it gives me insomnia at small amounts. I also have not used calcium on the recommendation of a naturopath.

    Fish oil insomnia seems to be fairly common if you Google for it but I have never come across a solution. Suggestions anyone? Is this likely to improve through methylation treatment?

    In addition to following the Freddd protocol, I am chelating for heavy metals and titrating iodine. The fish oil insomnia dates way way back though, before I began my current treatments. Any source of omega-3 will provoke it, including sardines, flax etc. It's extremely frustrating because just about every protocol for every illness recommends omega-3.

    More details about my case here where I've listed symptoms and supplements in case anyone is interested.

    Thanks for reading and thanks to Fred especially for sharing so much hard-won knowledge and precious time!
    - Eric
  9. Victronix

    Victronix Senior Member

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  10. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    I'm not too familiar with the CBS protocol, but there are two threads in the methylation forums:

    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/cbs-revisited.21183/

    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/cbs-protocol.22905/

    Most people don't have a problem with plant folate. Most people don't have a problem with folinic acid either. Freddd and Rich disagree on this though. However, folic acid you should try to avoid.
  11. howirecovered

    howirecovered Senior Member

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    thanks, I'm using Andy Cutler's protocol which I believe is as safe as it gets...

    flaxseed oil gives me insomnia like anything else that contains omega-3!
  12. howirecovered

    howirecovered Senior Member

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    by the way, I'm reading all the way through this thread and making an index of posts that I think will be useful for other people or are especially relevant to me, currently on page 50. I could not even count the hours this is taking but it is quite a dramatic read:D
  13. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    You have more patience than me. I'm curious what you find out.
    howirecovered likes this.
  14. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Xjheuz,

    We evolved a terribly complicated system for absorbing b12 from food and concentrating it in our body. There are 3 different TRANScobalamins to transport and protect cobalamin at 3 different stages in the body. There is intrinsic factor and other things involved in absorption. Methylfolate is an important cofactor in retaining more b12 for longer. Our gut is really very good at absorption. One virtually never runs into more than 10 mcg in a single meal. The typical daily dose is 3-6mcg in a meat eater. About 90+% of the first 5mcg and 75% or so of the next 5mcg in a single meal are absorbed until saturating the IF available for absorption. B12 defects severe enough to kill somebody before 40 or so are rare. As our OEM evolutionary warranty expires at 40 or so that isn't surprising. On a multi-meal daily basis we are equipped to absorb10x as much as our typical daily consumption. That doesn't sound so bad to me

    However, all the b12 absorbed by IF in the intestines is distributed by HTC2. When one absorbs 100mcg or more there appears to be sufficient distribution by diffusion allowing generalized healing. That was only possible by eating enough liver or clams/oysters to absorb B12 by diffusion (directly into serum) as well as IF. By eating a liver concentrate one can achieve that level of intake. The hunters' reward, for repairing the damage of the hunts, was often the liver.
  15. cph13

    cph13 Senior Member

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  16. howirecovered

    howirecovered Senior Member

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    hi all, I finished reading this thread and making an index / faq which I hope will be helpful for many people! I'm sure it leaves out lots of things but as it is, it took me about two and half weeks putting in five or six hours a day. this thread is a beast. can't imagine trying to include the wrongdiagnosis thread as well, but I'm sure there are lots of important details there too, that I remain ignorant of...

    http://howirecovered.com/active-b12-therapy-faq/

    so what do you think? helpful?

    -e
    Victronix and cph13 like this.
  17. greenshots

    greenshots Senior Member

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    WOW! You are amazing. I've always said if you take just 3 or 4 people with CFS and put them together, you'd have an incredible meeting of the minds but this blows me away. Great job!

    howirecovered and cph13 like this.
  18. bel canto

    bel canto Senior Member

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    This is wonderful - thank you!!

    Would anyone be interested in extracting pieces from Rich's posts? I'd be glad to participate, although I can't take on organizing it. It might just be too big a project for any of us to tackle.

    Caledonia's signature line is a wonderful resource, also. Thanks for that, too!
  19. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Howirecovered,

    I haven't read it yet but I like the idea and am awfully glad I didn't have to do it. I think that the LEVELS OF METHYLATION thread will bring things up to date and also gives some historical view. It has a lot more possible answers. The wrong diagnosis thread will give a historical view of the basic information and early development of the active b12 protocol and especially how things were discussed and developed without the idea of "detox" except from occasional visitors and mercury was a minor complication for a few people. Basically without those ideas, people healed much more quickly and with a whole lot less fear.
    Victronix and cph13 like this.
  20. howirecovered

    howirecovered Senior Member

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    I'm so glad to hear you like the idea Freddd! I hope you like the execution also. I'm sure you'll notice my personal bias about what was important and what might not be. I tend to go for the real practical usable info. I haven't seen the levels of methylation thread. where is that?

    Having been ill for more than a decade, as most people reading here I have seen a lot of theories, therapies and protocols and I personally have always been allergic to the 'detox talk'. that said, I am in the middle of chelating and I can tell you it is damn hard. but still, I don't like to label things unnecessarily and presume to know too much about what is going on in my body. I like descriptions about symptoms and reactions instead. and mostly I just rely on the fact that hundreds of people in the frequent dose chelation forum can tell you they are healing!
    Victronix likes this.

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