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B-12 - The Hidden Story

Crux

Senior Member
Messages
1,441
Location
USA
Hi Arizona;

It's good news that you've been able to bring your levels up with sublinguals. I have also had this success. It did take me about a year to improve form my own deficiency. I also have had IBS from childhood. (from birth actually, been told don't remember).

Now though, you may have reached a gray area, where it becomes challenging to find other causes to your condition. I'm in that area, so I'll try to make some suggestions to possibly help, but there's so much that I don't know.

I'm guessing that you've tried numerous dietary practices. Maybe you've tried some types of probiotics/ naturally fermented foods. These have helped me along pretty well with IBS, but adding the zinc has really improved things. It's taking more time to heal, so I'm observing for now. There are people here who know alot about probiotics. I've been reading some of their suggestions to each other. I'm taking jarrows ultradophilus now, and I think it works very well. There are many good products out there, but some are duds.

Sometimes increasing potassium helps with some symptoms. If constipation is present, potassium may help. If there is diarrhea, there could be potassium loss, but replacement should be done with other electrolytes too.

Your list of supps. looks good to me. Maybe someone else here will come along with a fresh idea for you. Also, starting a thread with a question is a good way to generate some response. As you've seen, there are some well-informed folks here.
 

adreno

PR activist
Messages
4,841
Hi everyone. This is my first time posting but I've been lurking for ages.

I was diagnosed with low b12 last year. They said my level was 56. Symptoms include always being tired, brain fog, light headedness, weak and tired muscles, bladder problems etc.

I've been following the protocol for about 6 months and although I'm feeling better (I no longer feel the need to take a nap in the middle of the day) I'm still nowhere near feeling 100%

Here is what I am taking-

1x jarrow methyl b12 5000 per day
5x enzymatic therapy 1mg per day
1x solgar folate 800mcg
1x bio care b-plex per day
1x source naturals ad12 10mg twice per week
2x 1000mg omega 3-6-9 per day
1x vitamin E 400i.u. per day
1x vitamin A 8000i.u. per day
1x vitamin D3 per day
1x cod liver oil 1000mg per day
1x l-carintine fumarate 855mg per day
1x TMG 500mg per day
1x zinc picolinate 50mg per day
1x d-ribose 850mg per day
2x vitamin C 1000 per day
1x potassium 99mg per day

I would be really grateful if you could offer any suggestions on where I might be going wrong.

Also I had zero startup effects. Does this mean the treatment might not be working?

Overall your list looks good. You could try gradually increasing your methylfolate dose, to see if this will speed things up again.
 
Messages
35
Thanks for replying. My main problem just now is feeling lightheaded. It happens to me quite a lot. It makes it hard for me to concentrate on anything. It feels like I'm drunk or even high. Does anyone have any idea what might be causing this?

Regarding taking more b12. Ideally how much should I be taking?
 

Crux

Senior Member
Messages
1,441
Location
USA
Hi Arizona;

It's a tough call to figure out light-headedness. I'll make some guesses. When my B12 was low, I had vertigo and dizziness. It took a few months to resolve after daily supps. I've settled with 5 mg. daily. If I have less, I get neuropathy, but if I have more than 10 mg daily, I get too hopped-up. I think it's good to find one's proper range.

It's possible that electrolytes are disturbed for some reason. Is your blood pressure low? Does your pulse race at these times? Many people here have Orthostatic Intolerance. It can be difficult to find the cause. Consider having some hormones that effect BP checked, such as Aldosterone and Cortisol.

I have also had lightheadness when I'm getting a flu, so it could also be some sort of infection that could cause this.
 
Messages
1
Hi i'm new here I have pernicious anemia. when I got admitted to the hospital I was not able to walk or feel my hands it felt like I had on many pair of gloves, after a week in the hospital and many test they diagnosed me with pernicious anemia
they started a regimen of b-12 shots cyna b-12 one shot a day for a week.then 1 a week for another month then once a month for life. after my weekly shots were over I started feeling worse my wife found me twitching while i was sleeping she immediately gave me my b-12 shot and I felt better I was also losing my vision and getting leg cramps before I was to get my monthly shot my doctor said my b12 levels were normal but I was not feeling better my doc said I was in normal range of b12 and did not think I needed more shots. I bought my own b-12 and now taking them every 3rd day I am feeling better and getting feeling back in my feet. I was reading where methyl b12 was better for neurological problems. I really need some info because my doctor has never treated anyone with pernicious anemia and I feel like im on my own with this. is taking too much cyna b12 bad for you I really want to switch to methyl I heard its so much better I will also start taking jarrow sublingunal 5000mcg next week to see if it helps

also taking daily
folic acid 2mg
d-2 2000 iu
pyridoxine hcl 50mg
thiamine hcl 100mg
mega red omega 3
 
Messages
26
Hello everyone,

I'm not one for posting on forums, but I felt an obligation to share my experience because this forum has been the answer to a problem I've been dealing with for the past year.

I am a 59 year old female, generally have been in good health with the exception of Hashimoto's Thyroiditis, Dx in 2009 (by me, ordering lab tests and finding the right doc to Rx meds, no thanks to the many docs who refused to look past the lab TSH test). The combination of insidious onset of Hashi's, along with bizarre menopause symptoms, made it a rough go for a couple years with ever-changing symptoms, some necessitating ER visits and many tests.

I am an RN, not working now but worked for many years as an ER nurse. I have studied nutrition and alternative medicine for many years, attending many seminars, experimenting on myself, and helping others to figure out their health issues. So I am always researching and looking for answers whenever some unexplainable, persistent symptom(s) arises. Sometimes I figure it out quickly, other times the answer eludes and frustrates me as I continue to suffer.

I understand this is a forum for sufferers of CFS/ME. I do not have either, and after reading hundreds of posts of your experiences, am hesitant to post my own because my level of suffering has not come anywhere near what I am reading here. I have had what I call 'spells' on and off for many years, not frequent, but they come--episodes of extreme fatigue (not tiredness) with migrating aches and pains. No doctor has ever figured it out, and neither have I, other than to wonder if it's some simmering mycoplasma or viral infection. At one time I had thought I might have CFS, but the symptoms just didn't quite match. I've also considered the symptoms could be due to my autoimmune thyroid problem. But that is more of a background to precede my more current issue.

About a year ago I started having bowel changes. After a lifetime of constipation, I started having loose movements, which would burn. Rectal itching. Right abdominal pain radiating to the right hip and a bit to the back. When this initially started I almost felt like I had an infection with the fatigue and achiness. The last 2 symptoms went away, but the bowel issues continued so I went to the doctor. He ordered a lot of tests, only one stool specimen for O&P and said he did not know what was wrong. Eventually it improved, only to return a few months later and back I went. This time he said we should do an abdominal CT, so I did. They saw nothing except enlarged uterus, a subsequent ultrasound of the uterus and ovaries was negative. Gastro guy said no evidence of anything, but we should do a colonoscopy. I have put that off, having had one 3 years ago which was fine, as I felt it possible I had some amoeba, protozoa, or other parasite that require more in-depth testing. Meanwhile, bowel problems worsened. I have always avoided wheat except a very occasional pizza, but thought I needed to stop gluten altogether, so became very strict about it. But I realized it was getting to where almost everything I ate was bothering me. I lost my appetite, became afraid to eat anything, lost weight, and lost enjoyment of life as my mental state was not good, very doom and gloom thinking, sure I had cancer, couldn't go out to eat with anyone. It was a dark time for me.

So as usual I turned to the internet to research. I was at a loss what to even look for. I had wracked my brain and knowledge in an effort to narrow down what the problem could be, but felt I was grasping at straws, such as the parasite thing, then cancer, etc. I just felt awful and would cry just from feeling unable to cope due to fatigue and and GI system always in an uproar. Probiotics made me worse, which was unusual, I had always been able to take them previously in large quantities. Now they just gave me terrible gas and pain.

Three or four days ago I came across this forum, and can't even remember how or why I got here. I had already researched certain vitamin and mineral deficiency symptoms that I thought most likely to be the culprit, but was not coming up with anything. Then as I read through this thread, and the absolutely fascinating experience of Fredd and his excellent record-keeping, charts, and graphs, and the experience of others, I was stunned to realize that a B12 deficiency can cause IBS and other GI symptoms. I say stunned, because most of what I've read and learned about B12 deficiency symptoms, rarely is it connected to gastric or bowel problems. But Fredd mentioned several times how his IBS of many years resolved after methyl B12 supplementation. Then as I continued to read, there were posts by others who happened to mention having the same experience with B12 helping their bowel issues.

Since I have cabinets full of supplements, I happened to have some Jarrow SL methyl B12 which I had taken only occasionally, so I followed the directions Fredd gave to hold it as long as possible between the upper cheek and gum so as to maximize absorption. I am not exaggerating one bit when I say that the very next day it was clear a major shift had taken place in my digestion. I actually felt hungry! And each day has improved and I even went out to get a fat, juicy hamburger with fries, something that normally does not even appeal to me. And I ate it, complete with wheat bun, with absolutely no digestive issues. I had been convinced that gluten was the cause of all of it, destroying my bowel and making me intolerant to everything else, but clearly that is not the case. No more mucous, gas, or other stomach/bowel/digestive problems. And the bonus is that my whole mental state has shifted to happier one, and more positive. And I feel I now have motivation, I didn't realize how insidiously this had crept up on me and had gradually adapted to a lower energy/motivation level. It's only after becoming 'normal' that in retrospect I was able to see how bad I was.

And the REALLY interesting part of this is that a few months ago I had asked the doc if we could order a B12 test. Of course he wanted to just do the B12 level, but I had known about the urine MMA test and he agreed to order it (he had never heard of it before) and the results showed I was B12 sufficient! So I just figured that was not the problem and continued to look elsewhere for answers.

It was not until I read Fredd's explanation of why these tests are not an accurate measure of true B12 status that I understood why taking the B12 helped when I had good B12 stores, according to the test.

I am thankful to Fredd and the others who took the time to give details about their symptoms. Had I not read about the B12 correcting bowel and digestive issues, I would have never thought it could possibly be the answer to my problem.

Again, thanks to all who take the time to post and share here because I'm sure there are many like me who are feeling much better due to the wealth of knowledge and experience of everyone here. I am very grateful and thankful I do not have to continue getting expensive testing and doctor visits which likely would have solved nothing.

EDITED TO ADD: I forgot to mention that I started up the probiotics and they are no longer giving me gas. I would love to know exactly why B12 insufficiency caused me to have gas and pain when taking them, and how/what was changed by replenishing the B12 that made me able to take them again without a problem.

 
Messages
26
Lynn,

I had not been taking the MB12 at the time I had the MMA test done. I had bought it last year and used it for a week or two then forgot about it. I did take a multi and a B-Complex a few times/week, but that is all. I only started taking the MB12 several days ago.
 

Lynn_M

Senior Member
Messages
208
Location
Western Nebraska
Your multi and B-Complex probably had cyanocobalamin and folic acid in them. If you have the MTHFR mutation, your body lacks the enzymes necessary to convert those inactive forms into the active B12 and folate forms, ie., methylB12 and 5-MTHF. That could explain why your uMMA result showed you to be B12 sufficient, when you weren't. The uMMA is actually a measure of adenosylcobalamin and is not a measure of methylcobalamin sufficiency.

I hope you've picked up from the posts here that cyanocobalamin and folic acid are to be avoided.

If you have a MTHFR mutation, that could explain why you had a B12 deficiency in the first place. MTHFR is also linked to Hashimoto's. www.mthfr.net is a good place to start learning about MTHFR.
 
Messages
26
Lynn,
Yes, both had folic acid, the B-Complex had 800mcg, the multi had 400mcg. The form of B12 in the B-Complex is dibencozide/methycobalamin, I switch multis occasionally but likely neither had methylated forms of FA or B12.

The MTHFR is a totally new concept for me and I'm not sure I understand it. I went to that link and started watching a video with some helpful charts that he refers to as he talks. While I normally prefer the long explanation and intricacies of these sort of things, right now I'd prefer the Cliff Notes version in order to quickly understand it, but also common symptoms that might indicate someone should be tested. I've already spent $$$$ for many tests and doctors over the past several years so I prefer to first investigate to see if it is likely I would have that mutation.

So could you tell me briefly exactly how having the MTHFR mutation might have manifested itself during the course of my 59 years if I indeed have it? I was trying to find something linking MTHFR to Hashi's on that site but so far no luck.

BTW, does FREDD still post here?
 

Lynn_M

Senior Member
Messages
208
Location
Western Nebraska
For an overview of the problems MTHFR causes, look here: http://www.mthfrsupport.com/. The fact that you had such low stores of B12 already makes you a good candidate for getting tested.

For a video overview of Methylation and MTHFR Defects, look here: http://mthfr.net/methylation-and-mthfr-defects-presentation/2012/04/25/. I find it easier when just getting into a subject to listen to a video presentation. Warning, it's about 1 1/2 hours long.

The Articles section at mthfr.net is probably the best place to start looking for information at that website.

There are two common MTHFR defects: C677T and A1298C. They both impact methylation and lead to insufficiency of methylcobalamin and 5-MTHF folate. About 40% of the population is heterogenous for one of these mutations, and about 10% is homozygous or compound heterozygous. C677T is associated more with clotting problems and miscarriages. A1298C isn't as well studied, but it is related more to reduced neurotransmitter levels, high histamine, and low NO.

For consumer-directed testing, the best value may be the 23andMe genotyping test, which includes the two common MTHFR defects as well as other methylation genes. $237 for almost a million SNPs test. mthfr.net has a genetic test just for MTHFR - $150 plus cost of a blood draw. Insurance may also provide coverage for the test.

I'm 65 and just found out I'm homo for A1298C. I got through life so far with no particular medical problems, other than a congenital thyroglossal duct cyst, which I am now finding out is a neural tube defect. Neural tube defects are related to MTHFR mutations. I also had tongue-tie and a misshapen mitral valve, other neural tube defects. I don't have CFS, but I've had low energy and been quasi-depressed throughout life. Once I started taking methylB12, adenosylB12, and metafolin according to Freddd's recommendations, along with my other supplements, my energy levels increased dramatically and i've become more motivated and outgoing.


Freddd made some comments last month here: http://chriskresser.com/b12-deficiency-a-silent-epidemic-with-serious-consequences. I think I've seen some posts of his at other threads at Phoenix Rising in 2012.
 
Messages
26
Lynn,

Thanks for the links and explanations, I think I'm understanding this better now.

I have also been perusing the b12d.org site and Pernicious Anaemia Society site. I am starting to believe I need to be tested for parietal cell antibodies. I have 2 risk factors: my great-grandmother had PA, and I have Hashi's, another autoimmune condition.

And after reading the stories and descriptions of the insidious onset of symptoms, I found them to mirror the strange symptoms that seem to come, go, and change. Numbness, tingling, cramping, electric shocks, and recently, a feeling of loss of balance. I do hope I am not right, because this is scary. I will be making an appt with my doctor to discuss this.

Thanks for the link to the article Fredd commented on. I read all the comments, and am always impressed with his logic and experience. Oy, I have so many more pages of this thread to read, I'm now on page 142. And tons of articles/research to educate myself on all the possibilities of what has been ailing me.

I do not seem to have an obvious symptoms/conditions suggestive of MTHFR defects, but I suppose it's possible I have a milder form of it? Interesting about your physical abnormalities that are related to MTHFR mutations. Did you do the Fredd or Rich protocol, or one of your own devising?
 

Lynn_M

Senior Member
Messages
208
Location
Western Nebraska
Sedonagal,

I suggested looking into a MTHFR mutation because I think it's important to look for the underlying cause(s) of why you were B12 deficient. But you could have found that in your suspicion of parietal cell antibodies and PA.

The numbness, tingling, cramping, and loss of balance can all be symptoms of B12 deficiency. I don't remember anyone reporting electric shocks though. I would think reading about Freddd's ability to recover from his debilitating condition makes it a little less scary than it would be otherwise, but then you probably haven't gotten that far into this thread.

I'm glad he's sharing the wealth of knowledge he has learned through his years of illness and recovery. I have benefitted from using his recommended brand and method of mB12 and folate, and I have a CFS friend I'm sharing this information with who is also starting to make progress in dealing with her mystery illnesses.

This friend has had considerable gastrointestinal trouble, and I'm glad you shared your story of how you are seeing improvement yourself. I think it will help her see the light at the end of her tunnel.

It was following Freddd's advice on the brand and method of taking methylcobalamin, as well as adding in adenosylcobalamin, that made a big difference for me within a week. The brands of SL methylB12 I'd taken for 4 years previously were his zero star brands and never did me any good. I was already taking foundational supplements and a DMG Complex, and I've since added Solgar metafolin. I take IntraMax and fermented cod liver oil instead of many of the supplements Freddd lists.
 

Marlène

Senior Member
Messages
443
Location
Edegem, Belgium
Hi

I ordered all the supplements as indicated in another thread by Freddd but where can I find the protocol with a schedule and timing for intake? (I did not order methionine as I'm hypersensitive to it.)

Many thanks,

Marlne
 
Messages
26
While I am awaiting my order for ET mB12 and Solgar Mfolate, I checked my stash of supplements and saw I had Source Natural MegaFolinic folinic acid. I seem to recall Rich mentioning this as acceptable, and Fredd also, but I could be wrong. In any case, I thought I would take it along with the old stash of Jarrow MB12 until my order comes.

What is the status of the effectiveness of folinic acid? The per tablet dose is 800 mcg
 

hixxy

Senior Member
Messages
1,229
Location
Australia
While I am awaiting my order for ET mB12 and Solgar Mfolate, I checked my stash of supplements and saw I had Source Natural MegaFolinic folinic acid. I seem to recall Rich mentioning this as acceptable, and Fredd also, but I could be wrong. In any case, I thought I would take it along with the old stash of Jarrow MB12 until my order comes.

What is the status of the effectiveness of folinic acid? The per tablet dose is 800 mcg

The only way to know is if you know your MTHFR status. You may be able to get away with using folinic acid instead of 5MTHF(methylfolate), when taken along side MethylB12 (Dr Jill James has shown this). If you have MTHFR mutations, you will probably do yourself more harm than good.
 
Messages
26
Hi

I ordered all the supplements as indicated in another thread by Freddd but where can I find the protocol with a schedule and timing for intake? (I did not order methionine as I'm hypersensitive to it.)

Many thanks,

Marlne

Lynn,
That is wonderful that Fredd's protocol has helped you and others so much. It brings tears to my eyes to read some of these stories. As an example the guy named RED (something or other) whose wife was so debilitated with CFS and god-knows-what-else. Beginning the protocol was rough for her and she was not wanting to continue, but her husband was determined and encouraged her to push through it. And then sometime later he reported little miracles happening which showed that she indeed was improving.

While I know I need to get tested for parietal cell antibodies, I'm getting gun-shy of going to doctors and enduring 'the look'--and the clear indications that they think you are barking up the wrong tree. Although my GP is generally great and usually will order the tests I ask for.
 
Messages
26
The only way to know is if you know your MTHFR status. You may be able to get away with using folinic acid instead of 5MTHF(methylfolate), when taken along side MethylB12 (Dr Jill James has shown this). If you have MTHFR mutations, you will probably do yourself more harm than good.


Hi hixxy,

Thanks for the info. If I have undiagnosed MTHFR defect and take the folinic, what type of reaction can I expect to see? I took the first one today. So far nothing.
 

hixxy

Senior Member
Messages
1,229
Location
Australia
Hi hixxy,

Thanks for the info. If I have undiagnosed MTHFR defect and take the folinic, what type of reaction can I expect to see? I took the first one today. So far nothing.

I doubt it would have a drastic and rapid affect, more likely over time induce a further worsening of your methylation status, and therefore worsening of your condition.
 

Lynn_M

Senior Member
Messages
208
Location
Western Nebraska
I asked about folinic acid and the MTHFR A1298C mutation at post 2535 of this thread. I know folinic acid is not recommended for the C677T mutation, but not sure about the A1298C mutation. Hixxy, do you know?

Marlene,
The two protocols, Freddd's and richvank's, list supplements, but I've never seen a protocol with schedule and timing for intake.

Sedonagal,
I glimpsed at some info about parietal cell antibodies, and it seems that the results aren't always definitive. You might consider the methylation test that richvank (Dr. Rich Van Konykenburg) recommends, which is through Health Diagnostics and Research Institute (formerly Vitamin Diagnostics) in New Jersey. He has helped people interpret the results.