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B-12 - The Hidden Story

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Cort, Jul 26, 2009.

  1. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    1 ) So you are saying I should take Metafolin + Jarrow Methylb12 5mg + Enzyamtic Therapy 1mg B12 infusion + Source Naturals Dibencozide daily ?? Should I take the dose mentioned on the bottles ?

    Metafolin daily, Jarrow mb12 5mg daily, the ET 1mg can wait until you see if you need a little more help, Source Naturals Dibencozide, half a tablet twice a week is probably fine. Things may need adjustment later after everything is running smoothly.

    2) You mention that one should also take potassium. We do not get plain potassium supplements here so could you tell me which one I can order from iherb?

    Really? What about Salt Substitute (LoSalt) at the supermarket? That would do fine. I take the NOW Potassium Gluconate. As each tablet is only 99mg and I take 12-18 tablets a day (you may not need anywhere near that) I go through a lot. That makes it heavy and bulky for actually very little. The powders below would be a MUCH less expensive and much lighter for shipping. The potassium chloride powder is 730mg per 1/4 teaspoon. You would have to mix it in a large glass or water or whatever the instructions are.

    http://www.iherb.com/Now-Foods-Potassium-Gluconate-100-Pure-Powder-1-lb-454-g/13939?at=0
    http://www.iherb.com/Now-Foods-Potassium-Chloride-Powder-8-oz-227-g/777?at=0

    3 ) What about the other co-factors you mention - should I do that later - for eg Sam-e , L-carnitine fumarate ??

    Those are for later unless you are a vegetarian, then the l-carnitine fumarate is needed now.
    http://www.iherb.com/Doctor-s-Best-Best-L-Carnitine-Fumarate-855-mg-180-Veggie-Caps/4939?at=0 is the best buy right now.


    4) Is this protocol ok to do even though one has regular b12 blood levels ? Is there a danger of too much ??

    Regular blood levels can leave a person with hundreds of deficiency symptoms.

    5) Is it ok to take LDN while on your protocol ?

    I don't know but I don't see why not.


    6) Could tender or poky feelings in the scalp be related to b12 ? ( I did read the list of symptoms you listed and it seems this could be one )


    I'm not sure what you mean, but could be.
     
  2. Deepak

    Deepak

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    Dear Freddd,

    Many thanks for replying.

    1) yes, we do get losalt here. So then can I just take that ? How much ? I have been taking one packet daily of an electrolyte mix powder we get here which contains sodium chloride 2.6 g, potassium chloride 1.5 g, sodium citrate 2.9 g, dextrose anhydrous 13.5 g. Do you think I can just continue taking this for the potassium need ?


    2) Yes I am vegetarian so will take the l-carnintine you say.

    3) From the last CBC I did a month back I am posting some numbers, which I think according to the symptom list you have seem to suggest some problem with my b12 I think but could you please tell me too.


    My MCV number is 92 range is 78-100 .
    RDW ( red cell distribution width ) is 15.5 range is 11.5-14.5.
    PDW ( platelet dist. width) 16.6 range 9-17
    Mean Platelet volume 8.9 range 5-7.
    Hematocrit 41 range 40-52.
    MCH 30 range 27-31
    Platelet count 255 range 150-400



    Thank you again .

    With love,
    Deeepak
     
  3. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Deepack,

    There is more salt, sodium chloride, than potassium in that. That is way to much salt. Losalt has about 500mg potasium per I thing 1/2 teaspoon. Check the package.

    You MCV looks pretty good but atg the top of the old range in the USA before the endemic B12/folate deficiency. MCV can be kept low by high folate but low b12 and thereby cause neurological damage.

    Hematicrit looks low, barely at bottom end and that is often low iron whereas MCH is at top of range suggesting mb12/folate possibilities. MCV might be kept down by low iron.

    Interpreting these things is not what I really know but I'm just mentioning some of the things that strike me.
     
  4. Deepak

    Deepak

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    Thank you Fredd.

    I dont mean to be redundant but from your experience, and these blood results would you say I would be a good candidate to go onto the protocol.

    Regards,
    Deepak
     
  5. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Deepak,

    I think EVERY vegetarian would benefit and half of the rest. According to many studies, the ONLY DEFINITIVE TEST FOR B12 benefits is taking b12 and it should be taken with cofactors to be most effective.
     
  6. nipsic

    nipsic

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    Rich & Freddd,

    I would like to try to a methylization protocol to help with my ability to detoxic, reduce my multiple sensitivities, and potentially regenerate neurological functioning (if possible) but have some questions that you both may be able to answer.

    Despite injections and folic acid (which I understand might have been useless if not harmful in both cases) for years and high blood serum levels of both, the lowest my MCV has gotten was 98. I seem to stay between 98-102. I do get mB12 and aB12 injections now (only daily .250mg but will be increased as my tolerance to them increases). They knock me out. I will be taking the minimum dose of both to get results as my system seems to really hate them. I am hoping that in 90 days of running my active b12 injections and L-5-MTHF I will have some benefit to my hematological values. How long is an appropriate time before increasing the doses? Should I increase my doses in 90 days cycles to slowly introduce the compounds to my system (and possible negative effects) or is there a standard for increasing dosages to tolerance? or just to tolerance?

    Is there any exact role of folinic acid in the body or in every case does it need to become 5-MTHF to have a function? I am asking because currently,I am looking at two different b-complexes to supplement my vitamin B. If there is no rule of folinic acid in the body, I do not see a reason to supplement with it. Although I have not seen research to support that folic acid/folinic acid interferes with the cellular absorption, it does relate to my own experiences for folic acid. Folinic acid I am not so certain of its potential for problems in me but don't know if I care enough to findout if I don't have to.

    One by Pure Encapsulations http://pureformulas.com/bcomplex-pl...y-pure-encapsulations.html?CAWELAID=532165110.

    Which only has 5-MTHF

    The other is the throne b-complex which is a combination of folinic acid and 5-MTHF
    http://www.easyhealthzone.com/basic...gdftrk=gdfV23392_a_7c1235_a_7c3976_a_7cTH0048

    I was reading from numerous articles that Riboflavin can cause increase functioning for individuals with the C677T polymorphism (I am C677T +/-). If that is true, has anyone seen an effective/efficacious regimen?

    Also, I was reading that niacin can reduce folic acid levels (via pharmacy interactions sheet)? Is that true? Is that effect also seen with Niacinamide or one to do with the unique effects of niacins?

    Rick would you recommend the Genetic one (holistic health) or the methylization panel from that lab in New Jersey more. I understand that one of them shows the tendency in the body (Holistic health) and one shows functional state. Although I could get both, would it be more advantages to find out the tendency over the actually current functional state of the system. Or does the functional state provide the best information for tailoring of the treatments as it will show a current blockage? Or are there supplements I could take that will circumvent all of the potential difficulties?

    Freddd, do you recommend the gamma E because of its ability to recycle aB12 and red blood cell support or is there any other reason? Is there a dose that you recommend? The products you use seem high to me but if that is what is necessary I have no problem taking them.

    Is there anything that I should avoid or definitely have in a multiple vitamin? Currently, I use the (https://www.customcapsule.com/) to make my own vitamin mixture. I just wanted to know if there was anything that I should ensure that I have put in my multivitamin or anything to avoid (besides folic acid and inactive b12).

    I would like to understand the minimum dose to take for these compounds because I do not like taking supplements (and my body hates them). I know that neither of you can answer that nor do either of your protocols agree so I think that will have to be individual experimentation.

    Thank you both for any insight that you can give me. I am new to considering methyl-block protocols. But I can say that for me that gluthathine is a poor choice. Never has a product pushed me under so fast.
     
  7. cyndyd

    cyndyd

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  8. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Nipsic,

    To assure a good startup, I would avoid all NAC, glutathione, folinic acid, folic acid, whey. I would include all vitamins and minerals. Then I would make sure I had plenty of potassium on hand. On day three of mb12 be prepared for low potassium symptoms and start taking enough potassium to correct those symptoms each day. Playing yoyo, b12 and then not b12, will cause you all sorts of problems and start and stop healing and make problems worse rather than have things drop away as healed in 10 days and onwards. Better to get going on the 5 star mb12, plenty of Metafolin and all the basics including omega3 oils and lecithin. A 1mg 5 star mb12 will provide the equivalent of 150-250mcg a day in an injection for a fraction of the prcie and with better relaiableity. Same with adb12 sublingual. Taking it very day will be more stable and create less problems and let you deal with the low potassium which can be very serious. See the basics.http://forums.phoenixrising.me/showthread.php?11522-Active-B12-Protocol-Basics

    I prefer the 8 factor high gamma E for all sorts of reasons including cancer considerations, unknown benefits, etc. It's a matter of playing the odds. If it isn't any better than dl-alpha tocpherol then I've wasted a few cents a day.

    YOu can't [ossbly have enough in a capsule. You need a goodly dose of calcium/mafgnesium, 50mg zinc, 2000mg of ACTIVE components of fish oil, not the oild carrier itself, about 6 caps a daY. You may need 1000-2000mg a day of potassium. Later you will need l-cartnitine fumarate and maybe SAM-e and some other things. These can't be taken with food. Other things have to be taken with food. Don't include iron. It can't be taken with vit E without blocking it.
     
  9. greenshots

    greenshots Senior Member

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    Freddd,

    I am going to have my mother start your protocol as well, sort of a mix of Yours and Vank's since she's on Getb B 12, which has hydroxy and adenosyl. she is a COMT ++ but also has the VDR Taq ++, which should mean she can tolerate some methyls since that VDR isn't taking any of the MTR/MTRRs methyl B 12 to make Vit D or dopamine. Anyhow, she has peripheral neuropathy that seems to be getting worse and worse and from what I gather, she needs some methyl B12? She's never been on the active folate 5MTHF and from what I've read thru the posts, that's probably one reason it's gotten so much worse. In fact, despite a ton of supplements, she's never really felt better either (mild fatigue & severe FM).

    She's on a ton of stuff but here are the majors:
    L carnitine Fumarate
    get B 12--adenosyl and hydroxo
    Adenosyl mega drops
    Ultimate B caps
    Mitoforce (a blend of Kreb's cycle supports)
    MTHFR Caps (BH4 & liver support)
    Vit C, D, E, & K
    Omega fish oils
    Amino acid blend
    mag citrate

    I've suggested she start up 5mthf soon since this seems to be a crucial, missing piece based on all the posts here.
    She doesn't take folate supplements other than the small amt in the Ultimate B.

    Thanks for your help!
    Angela


    What would you recommend for this issue specifically?
     
  10. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Angela,

    I have to say right now that the trickiest thing is the whole folate business. I need some clarificattion. What is "getb b 12" I can't find it, can you give me the exact brand name or link please?


    Now a couple of comments on what you have provided

    She's on a ton of stuff but here are the majors:
    I need to know the minors too, the devil is often in the details.


    Mitoforce (a blend of Kreb's cycle supports)

    hydroxy and adb12 666mcg total, unspecified mix hydroxy first
    l-carnitine tartrate, some small amount unspecified
    acetyl l-carnitine unspecified amount
    l-glutathione reduced unspecified amount

    Biovia Ultimate b-complex

    125mcg cyanocbl
    400mcg folic acid

    Adenosyl mega drops 2mg/drop



    In fact, despite a ton of supplements, she's never really felt better either (mild fatigue & severe FM).
    Anyhow, she has peripheral neuropathy that seems to be getting worse and worse and from what I gather, she needs some methyl B12?

    Does she have IBS?
    Has she a long history of vague problems, a PITA patient for the docs, never anything really clear but always loads of non-specific symtpoms going back decades?


    So let's look at what I see so far. "In fact, despite a ton of supplements, she's never really felt better either " This would be very predictable looking at the list of supplements. I will list the reasons, any of which may be THE reason or it may be the combo or it may be missing items or all of the above. It only takes 1 showstopper problem and there are several potential ones.

    l-carnitine tartrate, some small amount unspecified
    acetyl l-carnitine unspecified amount


    In trials I ran, I and a few others willing to experiment along with me, who had success on the l-carnitine fumarate, tried various other carnitines as well as mixes of multiple carnitines. others reported similar experiences. Having any other carnitines present,, regardless of the ratio to LC-fumarate, there was no effect. After 36 hour washout, l-carnitine fumarate regained effectiveness.

    l-glutathione reduced unspecified amount

    In a number of people taking glutathione, precursors, infusions, whey, various products before starting active b12 protocol, they had exactly the same report, "despite a ton of supplements, she's never really felt better either ". Upon cessation of glutathione in any form and removal of folic acid/folinic acid if present, they had a slow but building startup after a large enough doses of Metafolin.. Glutathione is present in very large quantities compared to total body b12. 1mg of glutathione destroys 4mg of mb12, adb12 and probavbly hycbl. Total body load before glutathione is less than 5mg typically. When b12 is quickly flushed from body methylfolate is flushed from cells (methyltrap). So it basically removes all b12 from body and causes the methylfolate to be flushed from the cells.


    400mcg folic acid

    Based on my own and similar experiences of others, 400mcg of folic acid can block 4000mcg of methylfolate in some people, paradoxical folate deficiency 1. If they also have a folinic problem, paradoxical folate deficiency 2 the vegetable folate in food could block another 8000-12,000mcg of methylfolate. Either of these as well as both of these could block all the methylfolate in the diet and 4000-16000mcg of additional Metafolin. These would also induce b12 deficiencies no matter how much was taken of any kinds.

    As far as drops go, most are ineffective for any of several reasons. First, they are very difficult to keep in tissue contact for 45-120 minutes. Absorbtion via tissue proximaity is directly proportionate to time and concentration. In the case of liquid drops, the time is measured in minutes rather than hours. 120 minutes can be literally 30 times more absorbtion than 2 minutes. We have NEVER found anybody able to absorb enough from liquids to show in the urine so we have no way to calculate absorbtion compared to injection. Also, in terms of mb12, we have no tests for mb12 "quality of original crystal" which is critcal. In my own private trials with injectable adb12 and mb12, adb12 breaks down starting in 5 days in liquid when 100% shielded from light and refrigerated. Mb12 prepared and stored the same way is stable for more than 6 months. In countriies where adb12 is sold for injection, it is dry packed powder in vials into which sterile saline is injected for a 2 dose supply, with discard after 5 days instructions. If they can stabilize adb12 in liquid I don't know how.

    In any case, regardless of what is in the other brands asked about responsiveness to all b12s and methylfolate could be essentially 100% prevented for 2 or 3 reasons each. With the other information requested, I will put together an answer.

    One other things I try to do in a general rule of picking out supplements is to avoid all these multi item supplements as they often have things with unintended side effects.
     
  11. Deepak

    Deepak

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    Dear Fredd,

    Is it ok to have flaxseed oil for the omega 3 bit, rather than having fish oil capsules ?

    Love,
    Deepak
     
  12. greenshots

    greenshots Senior Member

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    Sorry about that on the Get B12, its adnosyl & hydroxy mixed, here's the link. It doesn't say how much cyano is in it but when I asked a while back, I was told there were "miniscule amounts since Dr. Amy doesn't like cyano and only advises using small amounts for those with eye/visual issues and only then, with hydroxy so it can't build up as cyanide''. Funny since we used hydroxy as the antidote for cyanide poisoning in the ICU in the old days and I guess its just now been "cleared" to officially use it for that. Get B 12 is a Yasko spray so I thought you might have had others comment on this one.
    http://www.holisticheal.com/get-b12.html

    As for her others, well, she's one of those who has a cupboard full of stuff and you never know what she really takes consistently. She's like everyone else, searching for cures in a bottle and when one doesn't "work" she moves on to the next miracle "cure" or berry. This is what made me so anti-alternative medicine my whole life and yet here I am, recovering with herbs and supplements. I guess this goes to show you not to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

    I see what you mean with the folate blocking active folate receptors. In fact, she had her genes done too and hers are much worse than mine so I guess I'm lucky and this is why I've never been as sick as she has or as early. She has all of the MTHFR defects & the SHMT defect which would lead me to believe she can't use plain folate or folinic at all (MTHFRs as you know are folate whereas the SHMT is folinic). This may be a real issue for her and worth pursuing more single minded supplements. She's had FM & depression as long as I can remember and everyone knew that when mom came home from work in her 30's, she was going right to bed and you should be really quiet! How sad to live that way for 40+ years!!! I am so grateful I came across your information so that I could help her more.

    I feel like Rich's stuff has really paved the way for me to get up to 80% (from zero) but there's that last piece I couldn't figure out and you just can't get this kind of intellectual dialogue on the Yasko site. It seems to be jaded toward "well if you've tried all 154 of Yasko's supplements then I'd try her new combo one coming out next month." Where this works for most (85%) you have to be very tenacious, energetic, and have a very good mind to keep it up for the 2-4 years she recommends.

    Where I do respect Yasko and feel strongly that she's on the right track in so many places, there just isn't the real dialogue or addressing each issue that comes up and is questioned, so its hard to know which direction to take sometimes. I just know that with 2/3 kids on her protocol and doing great, I simply can't afford to treat myself that way! I don't have the energy, money, or time to be so comprehensive but in all honesty, if it were just me looking for healing, I would utilize it more fully while tweaking the B12's and folate/active folate issue as you and Rich have done in several places.

    Thanks for your insight, freddd, its truly appreciated!
    Angela
     
  13. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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    Sorry if this has been mentioned before, I didn't read through the whole 122 pages.

    I feel like the active B12 protocol is increasing my histamine. I get high histamine symptoms, like swelling and itching in the nose, head pressure, IBS, tingling, insomnia aso. I feel a lot better if I take an antihistamine, but I don't want to be doing that indefinitely. Did anyone else experience this? Is there a solution? Am I missing something to break down the histamine?
     
  14. Deepak

    Deepak

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    Dear Fredd,

    Does your protocol work well for fibromyalgia too or is it primarily meant for CFS only ?? I am confused - it seems I have mainly symptoms of FM but I do have brain fog and crashing and IBS and overall pain.

    Also, I got my B12 tested yesterday and it shows a level of 700. ( I have been taking a tablet called nuroday H which is mecobalamin 1500 mg , once a day, since about a couple of months). Just wanted to reconfirm that I was about to start your protocol and if its ok to start it even with a 700 reading.

    Love,
    Deepak
     
  15. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Deepak,

    700 is an ok level for many people but it isn't asymptomatic and may not provide CNS penetration. As a lot of the FMS symptoms are CNS symptoms, many people need higher levels to heal FMS symtpoms. The active b12 protocol is useful for the whole range of problems that are based on b12, folate and cofactor deficiencies, and deficiencies is a relative term. A person can be having terrible problems with values "in range". The ranges are often only statistical abstractions and have nothing to do with symptoms short of near death.
     
  16. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Adreno,

    The symptoms you mention appear to be linked to low folate mostly. The tingling and insomnia are things from the nervous system waking up. As the nervvous system heals the tingling goes to first hypersensitive feeling and then subside to normal. SOmetimes thewre will be intense pain jolts and then pain before reduing to tingling etc. The insomnia is a result of both mito startup (ATP generation) and increased nervous system activity. It will re regulate and normalize sleep if you let it. B12/folate deficiencies cause many sleep problems. As these correct there are all sorts of temporary effects on the way.
     
  17. greenshots

    greenshots Senior Member

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    I know that back when we went to the Pfeiffer Institute, they recommended Iodine, which prevents the conversion of histidine to histamine so that its often beneficial for both thyroid and histamine issues. Just thought I'd mention that in case both might be an issue so you get two for the price of one. Since most Americans use Sea salt to avoid the aluminum heavily added to baking powder & table salts, they are often iodine deficient anyway and many naturopaths are recommending iodine for this reason.
     
  18. aquariusgirl

    aquariusgirl Senior Member

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    Ok, thanks, don't want to mess with folic acid.
     
  19. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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    Thanks, I take a little over 1mg of iodine daily.
     
  20. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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    I realize that some symptoms are unspecific, but it's the itchy nose that makes me think histamine. Just wondering if there was any specific reason for the active Bs/folate to increase histamine levels.

    Histamine seems like a double-edged sword. Daytime fatigue and sleepiness, dysfunctional diurnal rhythms, both of which are common in CFS/ME could very well have low histamine levels in the brain. Modafinil works by increasing histamine levels (among other mechanisms), That's also why centrally active anti-histamines makes people sleepy.

    On the other hand, histamine is involved in allergies and asthma. Histamine is released by mast cells, and there is a syndrome known as Mast Cell Activation Disorder, where increased activity of mast cells cause a lot of problems. Mast cells are a central part of the immune system. So I was wondering about the relation between mast cells and active Bs/folate.

    Maybe mb12 raises histamine, along with other neurotransmitters, or maybe more mast cells are created on the protocol. I don't believe we can reduce everything to low potassium, and/or low/blocked folate.
     

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