The 12th Invest in ME Conference, Part 1
Over the Hills presents the first article in a series of three about the recent 12th Invest In ME international Conference (IIMEC12) in London.
Discuss the article on the Forums.

B-12 - The Hidden Story

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Cort, Jul 26, 2009.

  1. Sasha

    Sasha Fine, thank you

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    I hadn't even thought of that as a possibility! I haven't taken any b12 for three weeks. I thought it was lost by the body pretty quickly but I don't know.

    I took the same supplements again this morning and had the same effects but only very slightly.

    It is all so complicated! I wish I wasn't so ignorant about biochemistry! :rolleyes:
     
  2. aprilk1869

    aprilk1869 Senior Member

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    I think a 500mcg injection would be the equivalent of roughly 25mg in sublingual lozenges, which is quite a lot. It doesn't surprise me that you'd feel the benefits from it. Are you taking any of the other supplements.
     
  3. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    Hi, Sasha.

    I think April is right on. Normally, B12 survives in the body for a long time. A normal, healthy person who has a good inventory of B12 can go for a year or more without taking in more B12, before symptoms show up. It may not last as long in a person with ME/CFS, because glutathione is depleted and is not there to protect B12 from reactions with the toxins that have built up, but I think it can still last quite a while.

    Although the complete metabolism of B12 has not been worked out by the researchers yet, it looks as though what happens is that the cells bind it to haptocorrin and put it back into the blood. This is picked up by the liver. Some B12 is stored in the liver, and some is secreted in the bile, which goes to the gut, and the B12 is available to be absorbed again and bound to transcobalamin to be presented to the cells again. This is apparently a salvage and storage pathway to make sure that the body has enough B12, which is very important, during times when not much is coming in from the diet. For example, when humans were hunter-gatherers, there may have been times when they had to live on plant-based foods because not much animal-based food was available, so B12 intake would have been low. This is also probably why the liver and kidneys have the alternate BHMT pathway for methylation which does not require B12 but is supported by betaine, which comes from root vegetables.

    Best regards,

    Rich
     
  4. Sasha

    Sasha Fine, thank you

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    Thanks, rich. What a surprise! I really had no idea b12 hung about for so long.
     
  5. Cindi

    Cindi Senior Member

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    Oh! I see.. Thanks for the info! yesterday i took mg and ca. Than later i took 800 mcg MTHF thinking that it might be the missing nutrient.Not sure if it helped. I could not sleep until very late. Today i had another injection.I took mg,ca, vit a,vit E.vit C and B-50. No D3 as i can not tolerate it. We'll see if i will be able to sleep tonight. Thanks.
     
  6. aprilk1869

    aprilk1869 Senior Member

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    Don't forget potassium! I don't know whether you'd have a problem with potassium deficiency this early on but when it does drop it can cause a whole host of symptoms including anxiety, depression, muscle weakness, spasms and itchy skin. There are a number of people who take a lot of potassium every day. If you suspect potassium deficiency you should take 5 tablets with lots of water (the water protects the gut from the tablets).

    I hope everything goes well with you. My mum has tried the 50mg sublingual adb12 test along with 3 metafolin before and after. She's done the same test with the mb12 too. She going to try it on one of her "bad" days to see if it gives her a boost.
     
  7. Cindi

    Cindi Senior Member

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    Thanks very much April.
     
  8. JPV

    JPV ɹǝqɯǝɯ ɹoıuǝs

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    Large doses of Potassium makes me much sicker. I think it's contraindicated for adrenal fatigue, which many of us seem to have to contend with.
     
  9. Cindi

    Cindi Senior Member

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    Hi all

    Could not have a chance to read the thread completely. Do you know if adenosyl Co can be injected subcutaneously?
    thanks
     
  10. merylg

    merylg Senior Member

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    Can anyone tell me if Alpha-Lipoic Acid is needed as a supplement when on either of the Methylation Protocols? Sorry if I have missed something?

    I don't find any reference to it, Rich, in the Simplified Methylation Protocol. As in, it is not part of the Neuro Support Multi...any reason?
     
  11. merylg

    merylg Senior Member

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    Can anyone tell me if Alpha-Lipoic Acid is needed as a supplement when on either of the Methylation Protocols? Sorry if I have missed something?

    I don't find any reference to it, Rich, in the Simplified Methylation Protocol. As in, it is not part of the Neuro Support Multi...any reason?
     
  12. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    Hi, Merylg.

    Alpha lipoic acid can be helpful in several ways, such as contributing to the antioxidant system, helping to build glutathione, and participating in the pyruvate dehydrogenase complex. However, it is also able to move mercury around, so if it is likely that there is a high body burden of mercury, such as from having amalgam fillings in the teeth or consuming a significant amount of fish near the top of the food chain (including tuna), then the dosing schedule must be chosen carefully. Dr. Andrew Cutler has developed a mercury treatment program based on this, and he recommends taking ALA every three or four hours around the clock during the treatment periods. The idea is to prevent the concentration of ALA in the blood from dropping too much between doses, so that mercury is ushered out of the body, rather than just redeposited somewhere else.

    Best regards,

    Rich
     
  13. Rockt

    Rockt Senior Member

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    I've been worried about using ALA because of this toxin redistribution. But I was thinking that since my ALA (Source Naturals) is timed release, could I not take it 2 or 3 times/day, say every 8 hours and get the benefit of the ALA without dumping toxins in one place?
     
  14. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    Hi, Rockt.

    I haven't heard from anyone else who has tried the time-release ALA, but this sounds plausible.

    Rich
     
  15. Vegas

    Vegas Senior Member

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    It's a great thought, but the sustained delivery mechanisms are not precise enough

    to guarantee good results. Absorption in the GI tract is quite simply too variable, and the process the manufacturers use to delay the delivery of the medication, especially in a supplement versus a pharmaceutical rx, is not advanced enough to allow for the necessary sustained delivery. One would end up with levels of ALA that fluctuate too much. The timing of the dosage and hence the blood concentration is what is so important in Cutler's protocol. (Along with the chelator and length of rounds) You cannot compromise this. There are known half-lives of the chelators and when blood concentrations get too low, you get redistribution. A certain amount of this is inevitable, but his protocol minimizes this redistribution event insofar as this is possible. Even more frequent dosing would be superior, although this has its practical limitations. ALA induces greater permeability of the blood brain barrier. This is a good thing in that it can allow for Hg to migrate out of the brain, but it also creates risk. This is largely why DMSA is often paired w/ ALA. Unless you are certain you have no HM burden (w/ ALA we are principally talking about Hg), taking it without respect to half life (thus less frequently than Q 3 hrs) is not advisable because you are likely doing more harm than good...many times you will not feel the effects until later.
     
  16. Rockt

    Rockt Senior Member

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    Thanks Rich and Vegas.

    I'm going to eventually read up on the Andy Cutler info. but the brain fog is bad, so I don't know when that will be. Also need to get tested for Hg at some point. I guess if I don't have a mercury issue, (though most do, right?), I can take ALA.

    I'm tapering off clonazepam currently, and take reduced doses at varying times, so I don't think I could follow another schedule for the ALA/chelator at the same time. Will get to it, though.
     
  17. merylg

    merylg Senior Member

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    Thanks Rich, Rockt and Vegas for your thoughts on ALA. I am now reconsidering whether I will take this supplement. If I do, I would need to NOT TAKE THE SUSTAINED FORM, and follow Dr Andrew Cutler's Protocol for Hg detox...as I definitely have mercury issues.
    Amalgums removed (safely & with detox) about 5 yrs ago
    Exposure to Thiomersal in vaccines (notably 2nd early Hep B Vaccine that also sensitised me to Thiomersal! tested by contact allergy patch test )
    Ongoing exposure in workplace to Thiomersal used as preservative in lab Blood Banking reagents...which provoked breathing difficullty and migraines.
    Usual exposure to mercury in food that we all try to avoid.
     
  18. Jonsparky

    Jonsparky

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    B-12/Glutithyone injections

    Hi everyone,
    Came a little late into this thread, it was quite a read, though I haven't got all the way trough it yet...
    I have gotten a lot of benefit from daily injections of B/12 (Hydroxocobalamin and Mythycobalamin) with Glutithyone. I take small doses everyday 20-20-50 with a tad of lido to help reduce the pain of the injection. This has helped considerably to reduce the brain fog and help with energy levels. I used to get the weekly shots, but I would be flagged by the end of the week. I imagine the Glutithyone is the main thing that I get benefit from. I have notice that I am able to absorb the other B vitamins better with these shots, as the urine is not turning bright yellow as it used to.
    Just wanted to add my two cents to the thread...
    Jon
     
  19. schwarnie

    schwarnie

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  20. Sallysblooms

    Sallysblooms P.O.T.S. now SO MUCH BETTER!

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    I have already emailed my congressmen. My Doctor, Dr. Dzugan has sent emails to all of his patients and that is a LOT of people. We have to fight to get this thing beaten again. Rediculous. This is very scary.
     

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