B-12 - The Hidden Story

[Freddd]

hi all,

sorry i'm too exhausted to read most of the posts on here, but wondered if this was normal...

i was found out to be B12 deficient (my levels were 78) about 3 years ago now, i got treated with the usual 'loading doses' then three months later, one shot of b12, then the lovely Dr Esther Crawley decided it was probably a 'one off' that my levels were that deficient (cough... seeing as I am and was bedbound and nothing else showed up in tests.. of course it was a one off..). Anyway, I became deficient again but my GP at the time would not give me more than one injection every three months. I ended up seeing a Dr in Surrey on the NHS who now prescribes me B12 injections once every other week, it started at once a week for 10 weeks, now it is once every other week for 6 months and then once a month for life, if I find them beneficial. Now that's the point, I've not found them helpful at all, nothing. I suffer with all the typical B12 symptoms too mainly palpitations, severe dizziness, exhaustion. I did try sub b12's for a while but found them to have no effect either. Can't remember what my iron/folate was but I know it was 'normal' when I last had it checked... any advice would be great. Thank you in advance!

Hi Taintedluv,

As only 2 brands of mb12 sublinguals are very effective and then only if held in tissue contact for 45-120 minutes, and you were not taking the critical cofactors or the basics, there could be hundreds of reasons why things were not effective. For a lot of people hydroxcbl each 3 months or even daily doesn't work at all. Read the BASICS you have been pointed at. These came about by trying to remove all the reasons why b12 doesn't work. There is even a checklist for why it doesn't work.

 

[Sasha]

For the last three days, I've kept my doses of ab12 and mb12 stable and have added in L-carnitine and ALA, to boost the activity of ab12.

On day 1, I took 1 x (250mg L-carnitine + 100mg ALA); 2 doses on day 2; 3 doses today. I don't feel any different (in particular, I don't have more energy - possibly a bit less) and the start-up symptoms of headache/weird face/back sensations that I got with increasing mb12 are dying off.

I read in this article by Dr Werbach that trials of L-carnitine have been done on PWME of 3 to 4 grams of L-carnitine a day, which is about four or five times what I'm taking! Am I taking a stupidly low dose of both L-carnitine and ALA? I started off on 250/100 just because that's the size of the capsules so my choice was pretty arbitrary. Should I keep upping the dose of both together in 250/100 doses until I feel more energetic within the same day? Or stop at a certain dose if I've seen no effect? Or should I take more potassium in case the new stuff is increasing my demand for it and that's masking any beneficial effect?

 

[lch1]

I have a mutated C677T gene (inherited from both parents) which means I don't use B12 or folate well and I am high risk for vascular disease. I've been on the Methylation Cycle Block Protocol and it's really done wonders. One needs to take the right supplements and at the right levels. Regular B12 from a drug store will not always help (though it does a little). Methylated B and folate help a good deal.

 

[lucyhem]

I am glad to hear the protocol is working for you. I have the same mutation, only double. I notice you are taking methyl B. I don't understand why the protocol recommends HydroxyB12 if there is a problem with methylation. Should I be using a methyl B12 in addition to Hydroxy? I am not getting much from the sublingual hydroxyB12.

 

[SJB944]

Jarrow don't seem to make a L-carnitine Fumerate, at least not available on iherb. Can any one recommend another brand, preferably one which enables titration -- powder, or easily dividable?

Thanks

 

[topaz]

Jarrow don't seem to make a L-carnitine Fumerate, at least not available on iherb. Can any one recommend another brand, preferably one which enables titration -- powder, or easily dividable?

Thanks

No, Jarrow dont. I even checked their website. I eagerly await Freddd's recommendation too. Pure Encapsulations does make a fumarate but iherb have discontinued it so its listed on their site but not available. Im disappointed that iherb have stopped stocking Pure Encapsulations as I like their B complex!

As a complete aside, I did find a multi vitamin in my travels that uses Metafolin and 50% mb12 and 50% adb12 as its source of B12. Probably not of great use for us as we take our B's separately and once you take out the B's, thats half the multi but it does contain a lot of other vitamins: ProThera's Multithera 1. Its not available at iherb but I found it on their website.

 

[penny]

Amazon has it (l-carnitine fumarate) available in various sizes:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0013OSJYG

 

[Freddd]

Jarrow don't seem to make a L-carnitine Fumerate, at least not available on iherb. Can any one recommend another brand, preferably one which enables titration -- powder, or easily dividable?

Thanks

This is terrible thing iherb has done. They have sustituted l-carnitrine tartrate for l-carnitine fumarate on MY "past orders". I am really POed about this. I hadn't ordered the 500mg in a while. I ordered the 250mg a couple of orders ago.

 

[Sasha]

For the last three days, I've kept my doses of ab12 and mb12 stable and have added in L-carnitine and ALA, to boost the activity of ab12.

On day 1, I took 1 x (250mg L-carnitine + 100mg ALA); 2 doses on day 2; 3 doses today. I don't feel any different (in particular, I don't have more energy - possibly a bit less) and the start-up symptoms of headache/weird face/back sensations that I got with increasing mb12 are dying off.

I read in this article by Dr Werbach that trials of L-carnitine have been done on PWME of 3 to 4 grams of L-carnitine a day, which is about four or five times what I'm taking! Am I taking a stupidly low dose of both L-carnitine and ALA? I started off on 250/100 just because that's the size of the capsules so my choice was pretty arbitrary. Should I keep upping the dose of both together in 250/100 doses until I feel more energetic within the same day? Or stop at a certain dose if I've seen no effect? Or should I take more potassium in case the new stuff is increasing my demand for it and that's masking any beneficial effect?

I'm about a week into this, having stuck at 3 doses of L-carnitine and ALA per day. I've been a bit less energetic than I had been and have started to develop slightly sore muscles. Two days in a row I've tried 500mg of potassium just to be sure but it doesn't impact the muscle soreness so I don't think this is a potassium issue.

I've got several questions and I'd be grateful for answers to any of them, if anyone would like to pitch in!

1. Should I be taking more ALA & L-carnitine and if so, what signs should I be looking for to guide my titration?

2. I'm already taking 800mg potassium a day and 20 squirts of magnesium spray (allegedly 360mg/day but I'm not sure how well absorbed it really is through the skin). I haven't been taking any calcium, for the stupid reason that the Ca/Mg supplement I started with upset my stomach - I found the Mg spray but didn't get on with finding a calcium replacement. Is it likely that my symptoms of extra fatigue and sore muscles are low Mg (it has seemed an OK dose up to this week) and/or low Ca? If it's one or the other or both and I increase the dose of Mg or add Ca, how quickly should I expect to get a relief of symptoms that would indicate I've found the culprit?

3. I find it difficult to swallow tablets and want to switch away from Vit C in tablet form. I find ascorbic acid crystals very sour. I see that you can buy sodium ascorbate crystals and from what I've seen on the net this doesn't give the same problems as taking loads of sodium chloride would but I wonder whether that's true and if it's safe in large doses? I'd like to keep titrating up and in my first period of illness 25 years ago I was taking 45g of vit C a day. Or would chewable Vit C be OK? I gather they have a mix of sodium ascorbate and ascobic acid to control the acidity of the flavour.

 

[aprilk1869]

I'm about a week into this, having stuck at 3 doses of L-carnitine and ALA per day. I've been a bit less energetic than I had been and have started to develop slightly sore muscles. Two days in a row I've tried 500mg of potassium just to be sure but it doesn't impact the muscle soreness so I don't think this is a potassium issue.

Sasha, this is just a thought but you might want to reduce the ALA to just once a day (or temporarily cut it out). A number of people use ALA as part of the Andy Cutler mercury chelation protocol. I don't know too much about it but I know it's a subject that crops up here frequently. I have no idea if ALA could be causing your symptoms or not. My parents only take one a day.

 

[Freddd]

I'm about a week into this, having stuck at 3 doses of L-carnitine and ALA per day. I've been a bit less energetic than I had been and have started to develop slightly sore muscles. Two days in a row I've tried 500mg of potassium just to be sure but it doesn't impact the muscle soreness so I don't think this is a potassium issue.

I've got several questions and I'd be grateful for answers to any of them, if anyone would like to pitch in!

1. Should I be taking more ALA & L-carnitine and if so, what signs should I be looking for to guide my titration?

2. I'm already taking 800mg potassium a day and 20 squirts of magnesium spray (allegedly 360mg/day but I'm not sure how well absorbed it really is through the skin). I haven't been taking any calcium, for the stupid reason that the Ca/Mg supplement I started with upset my stomach - I found the Mg spray but didn't get on with finding a calcium replacement. Is it likely that my symptoms of extra fatigue and sore muscles are low Mg (it has seemed an OK dose up to this week) and/or low Ca? If it's one or the other or both and I increase the dose of Mg or add Ca, how quickly should I expect to get a relief of symptoms that would indicate I've found the culprit?

3. I find it difficult to swallow tablets and want to switch away from Vit C in tablet form. I find ascorbic acid crystals very sour. I see that you can buy sodium ascorbate crystals and from what I've seen on the net this doesn't give the same problems as taking loads of sodium chloride would but I wonder whether that's true and if it's safe in large doses? I'd like to keep titrating up and in my first period of illness 25 years ago I was taking 45g of vit C a day. Or would chewable Vit C be OK? I gather they have a mix of sodium ascorbate and ascobic acid to control the acidity of the flavour.

Hi Sasha,

having stuck at 3 doses of L-carnitine and ALA per day.
1. Should I be taking more ALA & L-carnitine and if so, what signs should I be looking for to guide my titration?

I don't have ANY theoretical basis for any guidance on this. In my own case, I have found that 500mg (LCF) once a day without food (30 minutes before or 2+ hours after food) achieves maximum effectivess. A single dose lasts me about 36 hours so the effect is maintained with once a day dosing. My only criteria of "what works" with the LCF is that it keeps my mitochiondria supplied with fats for Krebs cycle and gives me good aerobic capacity and the ability to improve muscle capability. Adb12 is a MUST for the LCF to be effective.

And again, for the ALA, my only detectable effect is as a boost to LCF effectiveness. I take 1 Jarrow Sustain ALA daily, with food.


Is it likely that my symptoms of extra fatigue and sore muscles are low Mg (it has seemed an OK dose up to this week) and/or low Ca?

That is exceedingly difficult to say with any certainty. If a dose of potasium doesn't relieve it, then it isn't likely low potassium. For that watch for a change in symptoms and test it with an additional dose. If it improves rapidly, then it was potassium but it may also be other things. Folate deficiency can be another.

Also, I found that while mb12 intensified the sensations of some of the muscle pains, adb12 and LCF-ALA tended to relieve this. However for these to be effective it required exercise to stimulate the muscles to heal. Those muscles may need to be worked to cause the delayed healing to happen. The extra fatigue however is usually a deficiency symptom, not a healing one. However, I did also have extra fatigue while healing the muscles. Some of it was methylfolate deficiency and some potassium lack and some I never identified but passed. More zinc made a difference as did SAM-e. When I found the culprit of these water soluable items the relief showed up within hours to days. The exercise made it worse for a while as it changed to exercise induced sorness. As they grew and increased capcity the soreness decreased. When my muscles were extremely run down just normal inactivity was enough to casue continueous exercise soreness without ever recovering from it.

I have no idea about the various forms of C.

 

[Sasha]

Thanks, Freddd - I didn't seem to have any discernible effects of L-Carnitine or ALA in terms of energy (or indeed, anything) but I've been taking it with food. I'll try taking it away from food. I don't suppose that either of them are hurting me so I'll keep on at this dose and move onto adding the mb12 co-factors next.

I guess I'll just wait and see for a bit with the sore muscles and fatigue! Maybe things will improve.

I just bought some chewable Vit C tablets at the store which are almost a pleasure to take, as opposed to the penance of swallowing horse-pill tablets. I'll keep taking them for a while.

Thanks again!

 

[*GG*]

Jarrow don't seem to make a L-carnitine Fumerate, at least not available on iherb. Can any one recommend another brand, preferably one which enables titration -- powder, or easily dividable?

Thanks

I recently bought some from PURE, it says on the bottle l-carnitine (Free form), (from 586 mg of l-carnitine fumarate) 340mg the capsule also has 60mg of CoQ10 and 13mgs of Vitamin C. I get it from my old support group Chiro's office for half the price it usually goes for of about $40, there are 120 capsules in the bottle.

GG

 

[Sallysblooms]

I take the saturated liquid CarniClear by Designs for Health.

 

[SJB944]

Thanks, looks like PURE also has it straight in 240mg. And I managed to order fumerate from Whole Health.

The saturated liquid from CarniClear seems to have B12 in it but doesn't say what form.

 

[aprilk1869]

When doing the 50mg test for the Source Naturals Dibencozide, how many lozenges would you need to take? On one hand they're saying each lozenge contains 10mg yet they're also saying that it's 8.6mg.

 

[lucyhem]

I need some help choosing a different form of B12. The Hydroxy tablets from Holistc health are not sitting well with me. I found Enzymatic Therapy B12 from my wholesale place but it is called Infusion Chew. Is that the one you are referring to? Ther directions are to chew it but it could go under the tongue. Why do so many of these products include sorbitol and mannitol even very high quality brands. I suspect I am sensitive to them or the B12, not sure which. When I took the Biotics sublingual, years ago, I had a similar immediate discomfort that I get from the HydroxyB12 tablets. Hard to know if it is the fillers or the B12. Have you ever tried getting it from a reputable compounding pharmacy? Perque Guard is also sold on the Holistic Health website. Have you tried it? I did not get the uncomfortable feeling when I injected the methylB12 years ago. Though it did nothing for me without the folate.

 

[Freddd]

When doing the 50mg test for the Source Naturals Dibencozide, how many lozenges would you need to take? On one hand they're saying each lozenge contains 10mg yet they're also saying that it's 8.6mg.

Hi April,

Adenosylb12 has a molecular mass about 200 higher than cyanocbl. Since cyanocbl is officially "B12", the 8.6mg is the "b12 equivalent" where as it contains 10mg of adenosylb12 compared to 3mg of adbosylb12 in Country life. The 8.6mg is used for calculating how many thousnads of percent it is above MDA of cyanocbl even though the adenoyslb12 is way way way more active per mg. 5 tablets is ample. If it isn't try 10 and see if there is a diference.

 

[Freddd]

I need some help choosing a different form of B12. The Hydroxy tablets from Holistc health are not sitting well with me. I found Enzymatic Therapy B12 from my wholesale place but it is called Infusion Chew. Is that the one you are referring to? Ther directions are to chew it but it could go under the tongue. Why do so many of these products include sorbitol and mannitol even very high quality brands. I suspect I am sensitive to them or the B12, not sure which. When I took the Biotics sublingual, years ago, I had a similar immediate discomfort that I get from the HydroxyB12 tablets. Hard to know if it is the fillers or the B12. Have you ever tried getting it from a reputable compounding pharmacy? Perque Guard is also sold on the Holistic Health website. Have you tried it? I did not get the uncomfortable feeling when I injected the methylB12 years ago. Though it did nothing for me without the folate.

Considering that the sweet alcohols in a single tablet of any of these is less than a single bite of apple or most any fruit, unless those affect you in the same way it is the startup effect of b12, nothing detrimental. With a sublingual tablet of mb12 such as the Enzymatic B12 infusion effects can start in 5 minutes with a tiny fraction of the tablet dissolved and absorbed. Because vitamins are not tested medications the makers are NOT allowed by FDA regulations to tell you to use it sublingually and they required a number of companies to change their directions, possibly becasue somebody saw our conversations and complained. They had ignored it for a decade before the recent crackdown.

Most injected mb12 is very inferior to the 5 star sublingual tablets for reasons explained dozens of times. Enzymatic Therapy and Jarrow mb12 tablts are many times as effective as the typical mb12 brand. Of the 10 brands tested one brand was totally inefective.

 

[Sasha]

Is it likely that my symptoms of extra fatigue and sore muscles are low Mg (it has seemed an OK dose up to this week) and/or low Ca?

That is exceedingly difficult to say with any certainty. If a dose of potasium doesn't relieve it, then it isn't likely low potassium. For that watch for a change in symptoms and test it with an additional dose. If it improves rapidly, then it was potassium but it may also be other things. Folate deficiency can be another.

Also, I found that while mb12 intensified the sensations of some of the muscle pains, adb12 and LCF-ALA tended to relieve this. However for these to be effective it required exercise to stimulate the muscles to heal. Those muscles may need to be worked to cause the delayed healing to happen. The extra fatigue however is usually a deficiency symptom, not a healing one. However, I did also have extra fatigue while healing the muscles. Some of it was methylfolate deficiency and some potassium lack and some I never identified but passed. More zinc made a difference as did SAM-e. When I found the culprit of these water soluable items the relief showed up within hours to days. The exercise made it worse for a while as it changed to exercise induced sorness. As they grew and increased capcity the soreness decreased. When my muscles were extremely run down just normal inactivity was enough to casue continueous exercise soreness without ever recovering from it.

Hi Freddd - I still have fatigue and slightly sore muscles - seems to be mainly my arms and legs but even my hands, which suggests to me that it isn't extra activity that's doing it, since I'm not using my hands more than normal. My muscles feel unusually tense as well as sore (I have to consciously stretch my hands sometime to relieve the sensation and try to relax them).

I've upped my dose of Mg by 20% (from 360mg/day to about 430mg/day) with no apparent improvement after 36 hours. I'm wondering if I should increase that further yet.

Also, I'm wondering whether I should try taking extra folate to see if this is a folate deficiency issue. I currently take one Solgar's 800mcg folate (as metafolin) once a day.

If I increase the folate as a test for folate deficiency, is a doubling of the dose reasonable? If I'm deficient, how quickly should I expect to see muscle soreness disappear? I found the potassium test (500mg and improvement within half an hour) so clear and useful I'm hoping the same might be possible for folate!

I guess the same questions also apply to increasing Mg - what dose is a good test dose, and how quickly should muscle soreness disappear?