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B-12 - The Hidden Story

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Cort, Jul 26, 2009.

  1. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Ukme,

    It was not one of the ones tested. Further because it contains mgs of cyanocbl and hydroxycbl I wouldn't touch it with a 10 foot pole. As most brands tested were very inferior compared to the two most effective brands the odds are that it isn't very effective. As the most effective brands of mb12 were 100 times more effective or more than the least effective brands, and perhaps 20 times more effective than the average brands tested It also makes any questions you ask about "why isn't my program effective?" come back to "Are you using the 5 star brands of mb12 and adb12?" If you are using the 5 star brands then we can can proceed to pin down what the other problems are. It's the same thing with folic/folinic acid now. If you are taking one or both of those they become the most likely place to look for problems. The other thing is, since cyanocbl and/or hydroxycbl have to be converted first to the active forms to be any use at all, and these convert at best some 10s of mcg per day they are nopt going to add much of anything to the effectiveness and yet they cost a lot of the price. Further Hydroxycbl causes acne type lesions (what about other lesions we can't see so easily?) in some people which is clearly cell reproduction not working correctly, and it is only effective on about 1/3 of the active b12 deficiency symptoms for about 2/3 of people, over all effectiveness about 2/9 (about 22%) doesn't sound like a good buy to me. This looks like a product designed by marketing people who just don't look very deeply into what they are doing or why.

    So if you get established on the 5 star mb12 and adb12 and Metafolin and the other cofactors, and everything is going well, then try the Prohealth extreme you will be able to find out how well it does or doesn't work. You need a basis of comparison or you will never know.
     
  2. Trooper

    Trooper Senior Member

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    Hi Freddd :)

    I'm about to give your protocol a go! For the past week or two I have been taking the following in preperation:

    500mg Vit C
    200mg Potassium
    250mg Magnesium
    20mg Zinc
    Omega3 - 1200mg Ester Omega with 350mg of Omega3 in them
    Vitamin D 12.5 ug
    I am also taking an A-Z supplement that adds a little more to my Vit C, D, Magnesium and Vitamin D totals per day.

    I take all these with food at lunch time. 2 hours after I have been taking 1000ug of a liquid b12, sublingually, but this has been the cyanocobalamin type. My Bad!! ( I did get a bit of whoosh off this for the first two days but that isn't so noticable anymore).

    I have now ordered Jarrow Formulas B-Right and Jarrow Formulas Methyl B-12 1000 mcg (the 1000mcg was the only one I could get with ease in the UK and I had some amazon vouchers that needed spending). These should be here tomorrow.

    I would like to know when I should take the B right, I was thinking with my food and other supplements at lunchtime?

    I would also like to know when, and how much mb12 I should take for my first go - bearing in mind I have the weaker version? Is it still 2 hours after taking all the other supplements?

    Many thanks! I have tried to read as much as I could of this thread but I have an awful memory and attention span - so I wanted to double to check with you that I am going about this right way.

    : )
     
  3. drex13

    drex13 Senior Member

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    Hi Trooper,
    I think the consensus now is that you should not take Jarrow's B-right formula (or any other folic acid containing supplement), as it contains folic acid and this blocks /competes with methylfolate (Metafolin) for absorption.
     
  4. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Trooper,

    A 1000mcg tablet is a good place to start. To start out, 1/4 4 times in a day will probably work out better giving a more even serum level than taklng the whole 1mg at once. After a few day if you are not having too much start up responses you might start increasing by another quarter each day, going to half tablets per dose when you get to 6 quarters and then up from there. Watch of sudden changes like muscle spasms, mood changes other than improvement, fatigue, weakness, muscle weakness and other signs of potassium levels falling.

    The sublingual tablets can be taken at any time except while eating. Consider getting a B-complex without folic acid. Also add Metafolin, adb12 (Source Naturals Dibencozide). For neurological healing omega3 fats (DHA, EPA) of about 2000mg total is considered necessary, say six or seven of the size capsules you have. Also, about 3000mg of Vit C or more is likely much more effective.

    Your A-Z multi also is likely a source of folic acid. http://forums.phoenixrising.me/showthread.php?11522-Active-B12-Protocol-Basics has all the basic info summarized in one place. Also http://forums.phoenixrising.me/show...ucing-deficiency-called-quot-ddtox-quot/page1 has the inforamtioon on the potential problems with folic/folinic acid. Good luck.
     
  5. Trooper

    Trooper Senior Member

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    @ Drex, thanks alot. I should have read the last few pages as well as the first 50 i'd got through :)

    @ Freddd, thanks for the help. Yep, my A-Z does contain folic, so I will leave that out. I will up my omega and vit c and take 4 1/4s as suggested for a few days and see how it goes. Thanks too for the links and all the time you spend sharing your knowledge :)
     
  6. h4house

    h4house

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    Trooper,

    For a B complex readily available in the UK without B12 or folic acid, you might like to take a look at B-Plex by Biocare. Got a little vit C and Magnesium in it too.
     
  7. Trooper

    Trooper Senior Member

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    Thanks h4house :)

    I have just ordered some of that - 10.50 delivered for 60 ... I'll also include the ingredients in case anyone wants to comment on this product later...

    BioCare B-Plex
    • Contains magnesium to support the function of the nervous system
    • Magnesium assists the formation of essential metabolic enzymes in the body
    • Contains no vitamin B12 or folic acid
    Product Information per Daily Intake
    Thiamine (vitamin B1) 50mg
    Riboflavin (vitamin B2) 50mg
    Niacin (Vitamin B3) 50mg 277.8
    Pantothenic Acid (Vitamin B5) 50mg
    Vitamin B6 50mg
    Choline 50mg
    Inositol 530mg
    P.A.B.A (para amino benzoic acid) 50mg
    Vitamin C 40mg
    Pangamic Acid 30mg
    Magnesium 13.9mg
    Biotin 200mcg
     
  8. liquid sky

    liquid sky Senior Member

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    Hi Fred,

    I have been supplementing all of the methylation supps. and co-factors for about 3-4 months now. I started with methyl B-12 and had a strange feeling, kinda lightheaded. Also had some headaches and toothaches at first. I slowly added all the things you recommended, in the exact brands too. Nothing else I added had any effect that I noticed.

    There are two things I have discovered. One is that mu angular chelitis is kept under control by the metafolin. I take 800mcg. 3 times daily. Wonderful, because I have been dealing with this for many years.

    The other thing I notice is not so good. I have body wide inflammation from ME and it is now worse than it has ever been. Can this be related to restarting the methylation cycle? I also have neurological problems, numbness, tingling, nerve pain in legs, feet and severe in spine. No change there, except spinal pain, but could be from inflammation of spinal roots. I believe it is.

    I just wondered if you or anyone else has heard of this increase in inflammation from restarting the methylation cycle? The reason I am sure it is inflammation is because of my familiarity with the feeling and I have tested to see if prednisone will bring relief and it definitely helps. I don't want to take prednisone regularly however.

    Any experiences in this regard would be appreciated. Anyone else had a similar problem?
     
  9. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Liquid Sky,

    The Carmen Wheatley "Scarlett Pimpernel" papers I, II and III deal with this very issue. That with b12 there is first an increase in inflammation and then a neutralizing of the nitric oxide leading to a decrease in inflammation. This appears to happen as cell formation picks up with metylation starting up. There is no need to take prednisone. The inflamation will run it's course and inflammation and pain will decrease. I had a lot of pain which wasn't controled by multiple medications. The pain decreased perhaps 90% allowing all but one medication to be discontinued. I had been taking 2400mg/day of ibuprofen. 9 months after starting mb12 the inflammation was gone and ibuprofen made no difference any more. 9 months after starting mb12 I was able to discontinue/taper Dilantin (for neurological pain and some spasm control). 9 months after starting mb12 I was able to start tapering benzos. 9 months after starting mb12 I was able to discontinue albuterol, Compazine suppositorites, antihistamines, theophyllin, an anti-narcolepsy med and probably a few more in there. It took about 9 months to reach that point. However, some specific pains started fading by year 10

    One is that mu angular chelitis is kept under control by the metafolin. I take 800mcg. 3 times daily. Wonderful, because I have been dealing with this for many years.

    I too had angular cheilitis for my whole life until Metafolin, and on and off then as I went in and out of paradoxical folate deficiency. Be careful of potassium deficiency. I started having reduction of specific pains by day 10. Nerve healing is slowest of all and may require larger doses of mb12.
     
  10. Rockt

    Rockt Senior Member

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    What is the recommeded ab12, (Dibencozide), at this time?
     
  11. aprilk1869

    aprilk1869 Senior Member

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    People are using Source Naturals.
     
  12. Rockt

    Rockt Senior Member

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    Are people getting good results with it? Is its potency satifactory?
     
  13. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Rockt,

    As far as I can tell it is similar but I can't be sure of how good until the end of the summer when I will try a 51 mg dose of Country Life and see if, and how much, difference it makes. I am hoping for no difference. Because adb12 parks in the mitochondria and that doesn't turn over very fast it takes a long time to get the results from this. I'm hoping that people who have faster changes with adb12 will step forward with their A-B comparison results.
     
  14. Shellbell

    Shellbell Senior Member

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    Hi all. I thought I would post an update. I have been on the b12 protocol since February. The first month or so, even though going through mild start-up effects, I was actually seeing progress. I was really excited, as well as my family. Life was looking up, I had hope, and was thinking about my future and being able to go back to work. The great thing was my depression was gone, joint pain disappeared, my anxiety was lessening, sleep was improving and energy was increasing enough for me to start mild exercise. The only thing that seemed to worsen was digestive pain and tinnitus.

    About a month or so into the protocol, I crashed really hard. It stared with what I believe was an accidental food exposure to MSG. Starting that night, the wheels started to come apart. My digestion tanked with horrible abdominal pain and gas. All my original symptoms worsen greatly, particularly my CNS symptoms.

    A week after, I also had a biopsy on a skin lesion and was diagnose with Actinic Keratosis. I reacted negatively to the injection she gave to numb the spot on my face. I am really sensitive to these type of things. I started treatment about a week or so after diagnoses with a natural cancer cream made from eggplant extract.

    I had negative reactions to this as well with swelling of my face, which is suppose to be normal to have swelling around the spot. But my swelling extended to my whole side of my face and lips. The spot was near my temple. During treatment, I continued to remain in my crash and had to isolate myself to my bedroom. All functionality came to a halt. Even showering became a chore like in my early days of my illness.

    I discontinued treatment a couple of days ago and want to get back to healing. At this point, I don't know what to do. I am taking all the basics, except vitamin c. I take very little. It tears my gut up too much and causes worsening of my symptoms. I also am not taking fish oil as I can't tolerate it. I eliminated all folic acid about 2 - 3 weeks ago. I am taking 20mg of mb12, 4,800mcg of folate, and I am still playing with adb12. I just can't seem to find the right balance.

    Since my crash, I am sick now 24/7. I spend much of my time in bed now. I can't even do simple chores like before. I can't even be around my family as it is too stimulating. Where I was able to make dinner daily for my family, they are pretty much on their own now. They are so busy, that I don't have anyone to take care of me. I am so nauseated, just looking at food makes me feel worse.

    Under the recommendation of a woman who's son had severe dysbiosis, I am consulting with her practitioner who helped her son recover. She works with severly chronically ill patients with lyme, autism, and people who have had adverse reactions to toxin and medication.

    I have tried all sorts of digestive supplements and am still on them, but since starting the b12 protocol, my digestive pain and nausea has only gotten worse. I am at a lost. I don't know what to do. I don't know if all that I have been through with the cancer treatment the last month just set me back, particularly since the crash proceeded it.

    My new practitioner wants me to stay the course with the protocol as she said that I need some nourishment and she has a lot of autism patients that are treating methylation while doing her treatment (mostly homeopathy) and are having great success. Actually she shared that many were struggling with the methylation prior to introducing the homeopathic treatment. She works on the vital force and resestablishing the body's ability to heal itself.

    Things I know, I have dysbiosis (untreated to date). My practitioner said she is going to work on this. I take hcl, digestive enzymes, and Beta TCP for my liver/gallbladder.

    I am on oral bioidentical hormone replacement and have a really hard time changing doses. It throws me into a nasty crash each time. So my doctors want to work around that for now and not make changes yet. What I do know is this is probably keeping my gut from healing as hormones are really hard to process, particularly the oral ones.

    Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. I am ready to quit as I am just feeling so bad. It is even effecting my moods and I feel mad and come across aggressive all the time now. This isn't me! My family has about had it with me. I have also become overly sensitive to everything emotionally and cry a lot now.

    I am beginning treatment with my new practitioner this week. I am hoping she has come answers. I was getting ready to add in the cofactors, but I can't afford to get worse. I am already on the edge and am afraid of where this will go.

    I am so glad to see that there are many who are responding to the methylation/b12 protocol. I wish everyone continued healing. I just hope I will be able to join the ranks of those who are getting well soon. Even though I am happy for the successes, it is hard for me at the same time because it isn't helping me.

    Take care and healing wishes to everyone,
    Shelly
     
  15. Sallysblooms

    Sallysblooms P.O.T.S. now SO MUCH BETTER!

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    Shell, I am so sorry for all that has been happening to you! I just want to send hugs.... Sally
     
  16. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    Hi, Shelly.

    I just want to note that it might not be a coincidence that the actinic keratosis began to progress a few weeks after you began treatment with high-dosage B12 and folate. Many types of cancer cells have been found to have higher than normal numbers of transcobalamin B12 receptors as well as folate receptors. It is thought that the reason is that cancer cells divide rapidly to produce new cells. To do so, they need to make new DNA rapidly. To do that, they need more folate and B12 than normal cells do. This characteristic has been something that is being exploited to target drugs specifically to cancer cells. They are attached to folate or B12, which carry them into the cancer cells like a Trojan horse.

    I have some concern that high-dosage B12/folate treatment could encourage incipient cancers because of this characteristic of cancer cells. This is another reason why I favor going a little slower with this type of treatment. It might be wise to back off on the dosages until this actinic keratosis has been resolved.

    Best regards,

    Rich
     
  17. Shellbell

    Shellbell Senior Member

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    Sally, thank you for the hugs. I really appreciate them. Hugs to you too!

    Rich, thank you for your reply. I was thinking the same thing as you mentioned this in another thread yesterday. The AK is now gone with a huge spot that needs to heal now on the side of my face.

    After looking through my journal this morning, I have decided to back down on the main Bs to a lower level. I was doing better at between 10 mg - 15 mg of mb12 and I was taking 1,600 mcg of folate at the time. I wasn't doing any adb12 at the time. I actually was struggling with it at the time when I would take it. I just decided to push through.

    One thing that is interesting is I don't get any better or worse after taking my doses. I just stay the same now (just bad) all day long. Before I started methylation, I had made some ground of just treating my gut with enzymes, hcl, and bile salts. From what I understand, bile salts shouldn't be taken for long periods of time if the gallbladder is still present.

    I think I need to spend more time on my gut at this point. It is just finding an effective way without delivering me to my grave.

    Thanks Rich for the info. I will take this to heart.

    Shelly
     
  18. Shellbell

    Shellbell Senior Member

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    Mr. Kite, thank you for your response and all the info you posted. Btw, I just wanted to point out that we posted about the same time yesterday, so I didn't see your post until this evening.

    Yes, I have had a GI panel done. It wasn't the CDSA, but similar. Personally, I don't think the one I had was as comprehensive. However, it did show overgrowth of staph aureus and a form of strep. It also showed that my chymotripsin was very low <3, which my doc said isn't good. No yeast, at least none detected.

    The problem with me taking antibiotics is that I react to all of them now. That is how I got here in the first place was from an ADR to cipro. However, before the final blow, I was starting to react to many different classes of antibiotics after my hysterectomy. That is why I ended up on cipro because we were trying to find one I could tolerate. I am also very sensitive to supplements.

    When I first started Fred's protocol, I was amazed how easily this started to correct itself. But after a month or so into treatment, something happened and this caused me to be sensitive to supplements again.

    Whether it has been the cancer treatment with the eggplant extract that is bringing me down, I am not sure. I can't believe that treatment of such a small lesion on my temple would make me so sick. To put is more clearly, I am 46 and this treatment left me without one wrinkle on my face at times. At one point it looked like someone beat me up, the swelling was so bad. Apparently this is normal when the lesion is close to the eyes. I can't imagine what I would be like if I would have done the pharmaceutical chemo cream. I decided not to take that route because it stated on the pharm info that it should not be used with immune problems. Anyway, as soon as the spot was gone, I stopped. That was a couple of days ago.

    As far as hormones, I think you are right. I think I need to stabilize my body and get it functioning more normally before making any changes. The liver/gallbladder definitely need to be addressed to get things running.

    At the moment I am starting treatment with a practitioner who is specialized in gut issues. She will have to help find the right probiotic for me since I react to those too. Hopefully she will get me where I need to be soon.

    Again, thank you for your response.

    Take care,
    Shellbell
     
  19. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Shelly,

    I am thinking that your present problems are most unusual. In talking with thousands of people through the years going through active b12/folate and recovery nobody I am aware of has reported anything like your situation. Your initial response was far more typical which usually proceeds uneventfully towards "normal". What sometimes happens is that as the sea of symptoms retreats one set of symptoms doesn't. This is usually a comorbidity being unmasked. Perhaps something like this is occurring. This really looks like something not related to the mb12 and folate and cofactors. I have no idea if it is related to the dysbiosis, the treatment or something else entirely.
     
  20. Shellbell

    Shellbell Senior Member

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    Fred, from my understanding, it seems my gut is so torn up right now that it can't process and absorb the nutrients from my food or supplements. So, my gut just gets aggravated with the bombardment of vitamins and minerals that I am taking.

    Yesterday, I increased my digestive support and knocked down my vitamin/mineral consumption in half, like suggested. Today, my digestion is calmer. Still nauseated and gassy, but much better. With that, I am calmer as well. No tears today! :)

    So, where I am not going to abandon the b12 protocol, I will back off a bit and concentrate more on resolving some of the digestive issues though other means. Then once the gut stuff starts to resolve, I will step it up.

    Mr. Kite, no worries here! We all go through sensitive periods. I am going through some of that at the moment myself. Thanks again for your suggestions!
     

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