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B-12 - The Hidden Story

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Cort, Jul 26, 2009.

  1. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    Hi, Shellbell.

    Something like 300 mg per day of magnesium is probably in the ballpark. If the kidney function is O.K., a person can go up to just under what causes the stools to be loose.

    Rich
     
  2. Shellbell

    Shellbell Senior Member

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    Rich, thank you so much! I have been taking a bit more and will back down a bit.
     
  3. jeffrez

    jeffrez Senior Member

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    Tracked down the source of some severe panic attacks I was getting at night: the adenosylcobalamin! Now what - is the mb12 okay on its own, or will there be problems from a relative deficiency of ab12? That must be what I was reacting to from the hydroxy, so it appears mb12 is my only option. Still haven't added the 5-mthf yet, waiting for the brain to clear more from the IV.

    jeez- this protocol is harder than it seems for just a couple of supplements. I can't even tell if there's any benefit yet, although I perhaps *might* be getting a small energy boost for a couple hours following each 1mg mb12. Not sure if it's placebo or even happening tho.

    What should be the target dose? 5mg for most people? 10? just afraid of causing an imbalance w/no ab12 possible, and no 5-mthf yet (which it's possible I also won't be able to take). Feel like i'm between a rock and a hard place, and running out of options.
     
  4. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Mr Lite,

    If you were using the adb12 from Country Life that also contained folic acid which was causing all sorts of problems for some people so you may not have isolated the cause yet.


    jeez- this protocol is harder than it seems for just a couple of supplements. I can't even tell if there's any benefit yet, although I perhaps *might* be getting a small energy boost for a couple hours following each 1mg mb12.

    It would be a lot simpler if we all reacted the same to all items. Just finding out that a significant number respond badly to folic acid is a real eye opener. Also, there can a be a very strong and quick mood content to the low potassium that is induced. The "energy boost" is one of the normal responses to mb12 in the beginning. There are several reasons for that. It makes a good aiming point. Find what increases that, while it remains.


    What should be the target dose? 5mg for most people? 10? just afraid of causing an imbalance w/no ab12 possible,


    What brand of adb12 were you trying? It might be folic acid or too much adb12 compared to mb12. That may actually be the imbalance. The amount of mb12 to adb12 that appears most comfortable for those who notice a difference is about 5-10mg of mb12 per mg of adb12. So after working up to about 10mg a day of mb12 then 1/8 of the 10mg Source Natural Dibencozide might be a good balance to try. Also, before that getting the Metafolin in place could be a good idea. The Metafolin typically seems like a weaker version of mb12 for most people unless they are so low on folate that it allows the mb12 to kick in heavy duty.
     
  5. h4house

    h4house

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    Hi,

    Started the protocol just over 4 weeks ago. First week was great, second week the IBS symptoms kicked in. Stuck with it as I figured this was probably detox related. Weeks 3 and 4 I've had very bad constipation , but generally feel reasonably better.

    In terms of the protocol, I'm taking MB12, ADB12, FolaPro, Potassium Ascorbate, Zinc, B-Plex (B-Complex with no B12 or Folic acid) and Magnesium Sulphate by injection. Not taking any EPA or DHA fatty acids. Should add that I have increased my water intake.

    Is constipation common with startup and does anyone have a gentle solution to it? Perhaps the fatty acids help??


    Many thanks.
     
  6. Adster

    Adster Senior Member

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    Too much oral magnesium on an empty stomach will help "move" it, I found out by accident!
     
  7. jeffrez

    jeffrez Senior Member

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    Anabol Naturals dibencozide, 10mg, no folic acid. I took 1/10 and then 1/5 of the capsule, and had the effect on each of the two different occasions I took it, the second time at 1/5 the cap much stronger than the first time at 1/10. This stuff is apparently very powerful. At first I attributed it to something else, but now there is little doubt that it's from the ab12, as I increased the dosage of the first suspect just to be sure, and have had no reaction.

    When asking what target dose, I was referring to mb12. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

    Tried 5-mthf again yest, and had a bad reaction like the first time. Similar to the ab12, but not exactly the same. I'll have to take folinic only, it appears, and hope it generates enough recovery to readjust my methylation neurochemistry and allow me to switch to the 5-mthf and possibly reintroduce the ab12.
     
  8. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Mr Kite,

    It's good to hear that the Anabol capsules are effective. Something to be aware of in reaction levels. I assume you are taking this orally and swallowing? So let's assume that you are absorbing the 1% by diffusion, 10mcg, and another 10mcg via active IF absorption from a 1mg dose. From the 2mg dose that would be 20mcg via diffusion and 10mcg via IF. That is going to make adb12 much more directly accessible to the cells. Also, there is a delay making it's way into the CNS. I suspect that what you are feeling is the direct mitochondrial startup in the neurons. The rough edges in mood and personality in that for other people has been when they did not have enough mb12 in proportion, in the CNS. The methylfolate is also the only form of folate that penetrates the CSF/CNS. It plays an assisting role with ATP.

    Just a shot in the dark here; does Parkinson's run in your family?

    So let's assume that it is the neurological effect of firing up the neuronal mitochondria. As the mitocondria stay occupied for some time, this can build up over time. If the occupation rate is 1% to start with and goes up to 10% that is a huge difference; 10x increase and very noticeable. However, once it is up to 10%, moving up to 20% is only 2x change and isn't likely to be perceived in the same way, and 20% to 30% is even less increase, proportionately. What I am trying to say, is if you repeat the dosage each few days, the effect is likely to tail off as the mitochondria become occupied. After that once a week might be sufficient to keep them occupied with no noticeable effect at all. If you wait a month though you are starting almost from scratch again and retracing the same ground over and over and will likely have the same reaction over and over. You may feel each increase.

    A daily dose of mb12 is likely to top out for body healing between 10 and 20mg per day. A single dose may cause deeper tissue penetration than 5mg 4x per day. CNS penetration may take a higher level of doses, at least to test to see if it makes a difference. A 50mg dose of mb12 over several hours may get enough mb12 into the CNS to modify the adb12 effect you are getting.

    Both kinds affect the neurons and this is a critical balance with some people much more sensitive than others. You may need to take them together for that CNS balance. I have no doubt here with what you have reported that it is the neuronal mitochondria being activated that you are feeling. Because of the pronounced difference between mb12 and adb12 I also suspect that you may not inter-convert them easily.

    With the recent research showing that malfunctioning neural mitochondria along with low CSF cobalamin and elevated CSF MMA causes neurological damage leading to Parkinson's I don't know how long I would want to keep the mitochondria starved for adb12 because of unpleasant startup. Perhaps the nature of the response is a clue that damage has already started. I certainly experience emotional volatility and upset as I also experience CNS neurological healing and recovery of function. You may have supplied an important clue here to what is going on with the "anxiety" response to adb12, mb12 and methylfolate.
     
  9. jeffrez

    jeffrez Senior Member

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    No, no parkinson's. Whether it's called "startup" or something else, it seems to be really cranking up or otherwise modulating my brain chemistry. Total massive weirdout psycho panic. Almost the opposite of parkinson's actually - more like parkinsonian reaction to l-dopa, maybe.

    It's an interesting hypothesis, but I have no interest in going through those attacks again. I'm wondering if it might be better to wait until the mb12 is up to 5mg at least, or better 10mg, and then start the ab12 again but at an even much lower dose.

    Whether it's 'startup' as you describe it or just neurochemical imbalance that would have to be fixed by some other means I don't really know yet. I suspect the latter, as some of the related symptoms of this kind of panic reaction only started for me about 2yrs ago following a stress event that threw something out of whack. Maybe eventually the b12s would fix it by occupying the mitochondria as you describe, it remains to be seen.

    Thanks again for all your input, it's a big help.
     
  10. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Mr. Kite,

    It's an interesting hypothesis...
    Whether it's 'startup' as you describe it or just neurochemical imbalance that would have to be fixed by some other means I don't really know yet. I suspect the latter,


    Let's consider this a little further. As you have isolated it to adb12, there are only two known things that the adb12 actually does and only one of them can have a quickly noticeable effect; occupying the mitochondria and generating ATP. However, adb12 isn't involved in the neurotransmitters. That is one of the places that mb12 comes into the story. That neurochemical imbalance (as part of startup) may very well be a result of mb12 being deficient as well and not being in balance with the adb12. That may also involve methylfolate. If you have other hypotheses concerning what mechanism of action with the adb12 present that isn't replicated with the mb12 that is in action here I would be interested in knowing it.

    You might consider a low and slow titration with the adb12 such as a 1/10 capsule once a week for month, and then once each 6 days and so on for a while as you titrate up on the mb12. If you keep the rate of change low but present, it won't fall back to where it was prior to your first few doses and may build up enough to not be an abrupt change later on.
     
  11. jeffrez

    jeffrez Senior Member

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    I have no idea. But don't some neurons produce dopamine? I don't know if enzymatic reactions are involved in that or not, but I would assume those neurons would have mitochrondria, woudln't they? If ab12 were cranked in and it stimmed the dopamine producing neurons, couldn't that increase the output of DA, for example?

    I might try that, if it has such a long life or half life. Do you agree that I should try to get mb12 up to at least 5mg before trying again? I'm at 3mg now, so it would probably only take a couple more days, barring any side effects or reactions.
     
  12. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Mr Kite,

    I might try that, if it has such a long life or half life.


    Adb12 does not have a long serum halflife. It is the same as the other cobalamins. However, it has a parking place once it finds it's way into mitochondria and appears to stay there so it is the tissue level in this case. Mb12 has no parking place. It is used in passing from the serum.

    Right now I take 3 tablets (9mg - 2+mg absorbed) once a week with my injection for increased diffusion. The folic acid doesn't appear to be much problem on a once a week basis but the experiments continue. This is not a final answer.
     
  13. monobear

    monobear

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    Hi Freddd,
    I've been on Rich's protocol for about two months but since the hydroxo was doing nothing for me I decided to switch over to using methyl b12 instead. I realize now the result is I'm actually somewhere in between the two protocols. I decided I want to try yours, but am wondering if I need to totally stop all the supplements I'm currently on, including the methylfolate and mb12 (i'm at 4000 mg/ day), and "restart", or if it's safe to continue on, cutting out the stuff I'll no longer need and eventually adding the other supplements in your protocol, including the ad b-12. Reading the thread has been very informative but has left me more confused than ever as to what I shoud start when.

    I'm currently on-
    800 mg folapro (methylfolate)
    4000 mg jarrow mb12
    vit d
    calcium
    zinc
    magnesium
    neurological health formula

    Any guidance would be greatly appreciated!
     
  14. velha508

    velha508

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    Hi,

    I haven't been following this thread so maybe I'm missing something, but it seems as if you had a panic reaction to adB12, is that right?

    I've heard others speak of this too. Before starting this protocol I too suffered panic attacks and anxiety. My history is clear - first panic attack ever as a child following concussion. No others for years, several months of panic attacks following use of fluoroquinolone antibiotic in early 20's, eventually learned to 'ignore' these and this helped them subside. However, had lots of anxiety and was always 'worried' about everything and felt stressed when previously I was never felt stressed.

    No panic attacks for years again, then in late 30's again took a fluoroquinolone and again my anxiety was raised enough to cause panic attacks.

    Thankfully I started this protocol. I've followed it since fall of 2009 and I've determined that injectable mB12 (2 x 10 mg/day) relieves my anxiety. I do not worry, I do not have panic attacks, even in very stressful situations (terminally ill family member).

    At one point I used 5 x adB12 daily and I did note a slight increase in anxiety/stress/worried feelings during the beginning of that time. It lasted about a month and then my body seemed to acclimate and it went away. I've also seen others mention increased anxiety with larger doses of adB12...

    Anyway, I am not sure where you are with the protocol, but you might want to try larger doses of mB12 to balance the adB12, or just in general. I have stopped my injectable mB12 twice for several days and this is when I noticed it's link to minimizing whatever is causes my anxiety - it came back. All of a sudden I would be thinking and worrying about things again...

    Take care,
    Velha
     
  15. jeffrez

    jeffrez Senior Member

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    Right!

    Thanks for the info Velha. Currently I'm titrating the mb12 dose upwards, I should be steady at 5mg by the end of the week if not sooner. Can't tell for sure yet, but I might be getting a small boost in energy after going over 3mg. I also changed to putting the tablets under the tongue, and they seem to absorb better there for me. Next to the gums I was always moving them around, but putting them directly under the tongue and just leaving them there seems to have made a difference.

    I took fluoroquinolones too, and always wondered if it contributed to my thyroid issues. Never made a connection with the panic attacks, but it's definitely possible. thx.
     
  16. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Monobear,

    The only thing likely to be a problem is the "neurological health formula". Everything else is absolutely essential. There is no rerason to stop everything and restart it. There are a whole lot more things you need to add for more probable effectiveness.
     
  17. velha508

    velha508

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    Ahhhh, you should do a quick search on this - FQ's cause all sorts of damage and problems for so many people. The symptoms tend to show up 'late' several months to about a year later and sometimes people don't put it together. This is due to damage on the cellular level - just like when healing, changes at this level seem to take 6-9 months to show themselves fully.

    For yearsssssss I wondered what had happened to me the first time, I never figured it out. Once it happened again, I knew it was the antibiotic, the second time almost all symptoms were immediate, though some developed over several months.

    About 5 of these types of antibiotics have been taken off the market due to extreme toxicity, one, Tequin, caused extreme blood sugar fluctuations that killed people, the current ones cause more insidious damage and maybe that is why they are still around. There is one recognized side effect, tendon damage and rupture...

    I advise anyone I come in contact with to avoid these at all costs - Levaquin and Cipro are the current most common ones in use, but there are more...I've read of plenty of people who've 'taken them for years with no problems...until now...'

    So I feel they are never safe to use when there are acceptable alternatives around...

    Velha
     
  18. Shellbell

    Shellbell Senior Member

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    I just wanted to back Velha on this. I am a fluoroquinolone victim. As I stated on another thread, this is what brought me to this place. It has been almost 4 years since my last pill and my life has never been the same.

    One thing I wanted to mention is that this class of antibiotics aren't the only one's that can do this. Cipro was the drug that took me down, but also taking Macrobid was just as damaging. My doc says he is seeing this more and more from other classes of antibiotics as well. The main problem is that they destroy the gut lining, cause damage to the liver/gallbladder/pancreas, and create more dysfunction of the cyp450 pathways. These drugs can change genetic expression very easily. I could go on about the damage these drugs cause. It isn't limited to the tendon damage that is in the black box warning.

    After having DNA testing, my doc concluded I should never have been given these drugs as I can't process them effectively. At the least, the doc shouldn't have given me the standard large dose that was given to me in the first place.

    I hope this information that we are giving you can help with making wise choices of whether or not to take these meds. Too many doctors are dispensing these drugs like candy, not thinking or seeing what these meds can do. They were meant to be used in emergency type situations, but now are given for every little infection that ailes us. These are big gun antibiotics, that can destroy everything in their path.

    Shelly
     
  19. drex13

    drex13 Senior Member

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    Lucky me, I'm allergic to Cipro. I have a hard time with most antibiotics. I've never had Levaquin.
     
  20. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    Hi, all.

    The quinolone antibiotics are known to chelate metal ions that have a +2 or +3 charge, especially magnesium, but also the whole range of other essential metals with these charge states, as well. They have also been found to lower glutathione, contributing to oxidative stress. I think that depletion of essential minerals and production of oxidative stress are the reasons that they can cause tissue damage and that they seem to contribute to the onset of ME/CFS in genetically susceptible people. One of the genetic aspects is that the Phase I detox enzyme CYP 1A2 is normally used to detox the quinolone antibiotics, so that if a person has a slow version of this enzyme, the levels and durations of these antibiotics can be higher for the standard dosage, and this might make the person more vulnerable to adverse effects.

    Best regards,

    Rich
     

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