New Atmosphere, New Vision: Gibson and Whittemore Kick Off Invest in ME Conference 2016
Mark Berry reports on Dr. Gibson's introduction and Dr. Whittemore's keynote speech, at the 11th Invest in ME International ME Conference in London.
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Ayurvedic 'second stage trial' success

Discussion in 'Alternative Therapies' started by 62milestogojoe, Dec 29, 2017.

  1. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    If you are suffering from anxiety, you might be interested in the supplements details on the following thread:

    Completely eliminated my severe anxiety symptoms with three supplements! | Phoenix Rising ME / CFS Forums

    My generalized anxiety disorder was moderate to severe, but these supplements, especially NAG, eliminated it. Lots of other people have tried the same protocol, and around half of them reported very good results like I had, but the other half don't seem to get any benefit at all.



    Holistic approaches sound good in principle, but it may just mean that the practitioners don't actually know which parts of their therapy work and which are just incidental, so they just give you everything in the hope that some of the treatments will have a positive effect. I think it is important to figure out the key treatments without which the benefits will not manifest, and which are the incidental treatments which may help, but are not essential.



    That said, I did try out the shirodhara treatment last night in my bath. (I just filled a 5 liter plastic container with warm water, and used some thin plastic tubing I had to make a syphon, such that the water flowed slowly and gently out onto my forehead while I was lying in the bath; it took about 10 minutes for the whole 5 liters to slowly empty on my forehead).

    It did create a relaxing effect reminiscent of meditation; however, I felt that the effect was unfortunately mostly lost in my ME/CFS "wired but tired" and brain fogged mental state. The calm yet perceptive mind that mindfulness meditation (and no doubt shirodhara) brings tend to be countered by the "wired" and blurred imperceptive condition of ME/CFS. But I will try again in my bath today.
     
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  2. pamojja

    pamojja Senior Member

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    When first read about Ayurveda was very impressed by an ancient story of a famous Ayurvedic MD, which at his final exam was given the riddle to find all herbs without any medical properties within a 5 miles radius around the University at Taxila, now in present-day Pakistan. He couldn't find even one.

    This kind of thoroughness has been lost with present day practitioners in my limited experience. Most seem to have only parts of the knowledge in Ayurveda these days, very understandably. Ayurveda wasn't only medical, but truly holistic all-encompassing 'science of life'. However, I was impressed with what some of them could accomplish with almost homeopathic doses of certain herbal mixtures in acute disease (..but wouldn't tell me what's in it. Which, as someone who reads every ingredient label, made me uncomfortable..).

    Ayurvedic practitioners working with poor locals and charging only how much as these patients can give, actually work very cost-effective.That's rather a description of my own 'holistic' approach: I try everything natural at low doses, increase everything gradually, and now after many years I don't know which it was in particular, which helped my remissions (with PAD, COPD, T2D...). :thumbdown:

    But then I was also impressed about one video, which I can't find now again, which made the point that in some traditional diets there are about 100 unique foods, each with again updo 100 unique phyto-chemicals. Compared with our SAD with so much less.

    So maybe there is really something to synergy, which our western approach to science - as it is - wont rediscover, at least not in our life-time. Sad from a curiosity point of view. But having experienced major remissions (except for ME/CFS, yet) this way, this is in the end what's counts for me.


    PS: Probably everyone can guess it by now, I take almost every Ayurvedic herbal found in Gokarna pharmacies within a 1 mile radius.. ;)

    PPS: Wouldn't recommend my approach without precautions. Indian herbs are all contaminated with pollutants and heavy metals. That actually makes me much more worried about the food-intake by it's sheer proportions (almost nothing grown organic there). Which I do monitor with yearly hair-tissue mineral analysis, and haven't found any concurrent toxicity (except for Uranium ..there is an atomic power plant within 20 miles there). But always consider, that everyone has highly different detox abilities.
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2017
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  3. Learner1

    Learner1 Professional Patient

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    @62milestogojoe @echobravo. Thanks for sharing. I had heard of these modalities before. Just one question - if one is allergic to cow milk (casein and lactose), does this make the treatment unattainable?
     
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  4. 62milestogojoe

    62milestogojoe What's a forum then?

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  5. 62milestogojoe

    62milestogojoe What's a forum then?

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    I don't know but I would imagine that to be the case. However, all the products go through a special fermentation process before they are suitable for medicinal use. I would ask the doctor @Abin.
     
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  6. 62milestogojoe

    62milestogojoe What's a forum then?

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    Hip, I really like your approach to experimentation. In shirodhara, there is a pattern to the flow of oil across the forehead but also with some focus on right and left temples. The therapist who treated me in January was very experienced and I achieved a very deep state of relaxation, but this last trip I was dismayed to find that he had moved on.

    As a result, treatment originally started with a trainee. The difference in efficacy was world's apart and led me to request the most skilled therapist (a woman) to take over the treatment. The benefits over 50 minutes to an hour were remarkable. Also, shirodhara is preceded by a head massage of 30 minutes. I think there is more to the process than relaxation, the effects of therapy can be quite profound (for me) and I suspect there is some kind of modulatory effect on the brain. One would need to be wired to an EEG to examine this scientifically.
     
  7. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    Beforehand I had a look at some videos online to see the technique used to move the flow across the forehead, and then tried to do a similar thing in my bath, by holding the plastic tube with my hand, and directing the flow to various areas of my forehead.

    However, I think because I have to actively control the movement with my hand, I cannot relax and "switch off" my mind much as I would be able to if someone else was performing the shirodhara for me. And my arm was getting tired after holding the tube over my forehead for 10 minutes, so that's why I limited it to just 10 minutes.

    Nevertheless, I did feel some relaxation, and hints of a meditative state.


    In concept, shirodhara reminds me of the emotional freedom technique (EFT), in which various points on the forehead and face are gently touched with the finger (usually while bringing to mind some emotional issue that you would like to resolve in your mind).

    I think with the EFT and shirodhara, you are stimulating the trigeminal nerve (the nerve responsible for picking up facial sensation), and so perhaps both therapies can be viewed as forms of trigeminal nerve stimulation (TNS).

    Trigeminal nerve stimulation by gentle electric current has been shown to help depression. It is similar to vagus nerve stimulation (VNS).
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2017
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  8. 62milestogojoe

    62milestogojoe What's a forum then?

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    Interesting Hip. I am about to invest in a TDCS to experiment with, hoping to facilitate promotion of synaptogenesis to circumvent any areas potentially damaged by neuroinflammation. (it is a shame we can't access low dose psychedelics).

    I will also be using the technique (once mastered) on an elderly relative suffering from a form of aphagia related to multiple TIA. He also suffers from mobility problems and was diagnosed incorrectly with Parkinson's.
     
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  9. echobravo

    echobravo Keep searching, the answer is out there

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    I wouldn’t think so, since the only time I ingested a “cow milk derivate” was when i drank “medicated ghee” during the detox (5 first days). Ghee is butter with the protein removed, so it should be free of both lactose and casein.
     
  10. Learner1

    Learner1 Professional Patient

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    Thanks, but I've also reacted to ghee.

    @Abin I tried PMing you but was told I am not allowed to. How might I get a couple of questions answered, please? Thank you!
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2017
  11. echobravo

    echobravo Keep searching, the answer is out there

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    Maybe there are alternatives to ghee for detox in ayurveda..ask Abin. Or maybe the fact that the ghee is “enhanced or medicated” will dampen its allergic potential..maybe test a sample?
     
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  12. Sushi

    Sushi Moderation Resource Albuquerque

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    Since you mentioned that you stayed in remission as long as you had these remedies, was it possible to have them sent to you when you ran out?
    He is a member but as a member who has never posted he will need to introduce himself in that section--maybe you could explain that.
    He will not be able to receive PMs as a new member who hasn't posted.
     
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  13. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    Looks like you can buy 500 ml of panchagavya (the mixture of cow dung, cow urine, etc) online at Amazon India for 300 rupees (about $5). But they are selling it as a plant fertilizer, not for human consumption.
     
  14. EsetIsadore

    EsetIsadore

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    Ayurvedic treatment, when done according to correct differential diagnosis via traditional means and in the hands (and mind and heart) of a competent clinician, will be always customized. It ought not be one-size-fits-all for any given Western-medically defined disease. That’s purposeful - and part of what makes it effective.

    I have severe ME. With major assistance, remarkably, I made it to India for Ayurvedic care. I spent seven weeks there - notably not even quite reaching the bare minimum of the course of treatment traditionally recommended for a course of panchakarma!

    The doctor had to adapt everything for me, due to dairy and gluten allergies as well as grain sensitivities. Moreover, in all that time, my pulses never reached a level of significant enough strength to enable typical panchakarma oleation and purgation strategies. Thank goodness I was in the hands of a clinician who was not so overly fascinated by his own approach that he could not listen very carefully to my body’s presenting idiosyncrasies.

    I continue to have severe ME. I did feel a subtle, yet important difference, however. I will likely return for next courses of treatment - a bare minimum of four weeks each, in order to allow enough time for healing to unfold and also to respect the incredible rigors of travel (including time zone shifts).
     
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  15. jpcv

    jpcv Senior Member

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    @Hip @62milestogojoe there are powerful acupuncture points in the forehead, I served as a cobaia for my father, he is a physicianand he was studying acupuncture. He inserted a needle somewhere in my forehead and in a few seconds I achieved a deeply relaxed staté.
    Hand manipulation produces a calm, relaxed state but not so deep as the one achieved with acupuncture.

    I read a book about a Brazilian woman with MS who went to India, received the same treatment as the one you described and now is leading a normal life.
     
  16. Murph

    Murph :)

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    I'm a rotten old skeptic and I'd like to see a control study where someone goes to kerala for three weeks but doesn't get the holistic treatment.

    The "Hawaii effect" has a fair bit of anecdotal evidence for it - when we leave our mouldering homes and go somewhere nice we sometimes see a good uptick in health. I spent much of May in the Iberian peninsula for example, eating patatas bravas and wandering the streets. Came home feeling somewhat like a normal person. I even jogged round the block once! The effect wore off within a month or two.

    So my question is whether we can separate the effect of the treatment from that of the travel.
     
  17. pamojja

    pamojja Senior Member

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    I could serve as kind of control, having gone already 5 times to Karnataka - only a few hundred miles north of Kerala - each time for 6 weeks. The biggest difference to home was that I got some serious infections on 2 occasions (at home I never get) and otherwise of course really relaxing and enjoying nature, people and the heat (always went in the deepest winter). However my energy never changed, in that I need at least 10 hours of sleep, and are only able for 5 hours mental work, or I invariably experience PEM the next day. Neither there or back home did it improve.

    And the long 2 days with flights and trains to get to the destination last time actually took me 2 weeks to fully recover. Don't think can be compared with a short flight to Barcelona.
     
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  18. Murph

    Murph :)

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    depends where you're headed to Barcelona from ;)
     
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  19. echobravo

    echobravo Keep searching, the answer is out there

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    Not sure I ever did that myself, even.. Where does he post his introduction, Sushi, to be able to post in the forum?

    (“Section”? Is there smthn I am not getting here..?)
     
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  20. pamojja

    pamojja Senior Member

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