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Attack on Lipkin/Hornig and Fluge in a medical magazine

Discussion in 'General ME/CFS News' started by deleder2k, Mar 11, 2015.

  1. deleder2k

    deleder2k Senior Member

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    The Swedish pediatric doctor Mads Reimer has published this in the Norwegian medical Magazine Dagens Medisin - literally "Today's Medicine":



    Translation conducted by Google and myself.

    Originally posted here: Eksperimentelle tester og behandlinger for CFS/ME



    What is your take on this @Jonathan Edwards? Am I right to classify this as some sort of Immunobabbling? :)

    A wise friend of mine, @DanME, points out that:

    - Lipkin is one of the most famous immunologist on the planet and his group probably knows, how to handle data properly...
    - There are a lot more studies, showing abnormalities. Like 2DayCPET, abnormalities in NK cell function, abnormalities in the brain etc.
    - Haukeland didn't only conduct only one study with RTX, but four. A pilot, two phase II and one phase III. There have a lot of experience and wouldn't go on, if they didn't see any benefit or serious side effects.


    I can comment on the article, but the best would be to write an article back. If someone wants to respond and knows immunology in some way or are a doctor professor I could help translating it to Norwegian. Fluge usually don't engage in these debates, and it would be good if someone could write back. Mads Reimer has written a lot of critical articles over the years where he supports CBT, GET. Some would say he is the definition of a "psychobabbler".
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2015
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  2. A.B.

    A.B. Senior Member

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    Seems like a poorly informed person picking out parts that support his prejudices.

    The Lipkin study has nothing to do with what Fluge and Mella are doing, other than confirming that there are immune system abnormalities. As for the accusation of fishing for correlations, that is in principle justified, but in this case, it seems rather unlikely that 24 out of 51 cytokines would follow a certain pattern merely be chance. The p value of the INF-gamma finding was extremely good.

    The idea that it's problematic that some of the authors are already treating CFS patients with drugs is a matter of opinion.

    The author ignores the previous results and observations concerning the use of Rituximab in CFS patients. Perhaps because that would make things appear less dramatic and irresponsible, or perhaps he's simply unaware. Neither is good journalism.
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2015
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  3. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member

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    An overly simplistic argument. I don't know if there is much point in responding, quite aside from a potential language gap. It also makes some basic blunders. I might list them tomorrow as I am already past my bedtime.
     
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  4. deleder2k

    deleder2k Senior Member

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    The first thing that hit me about RTX is that they have had several patients responding from immunosuppressive drugs. MTX, Cyclo, RTX. With the unpublished phase 2 study they have probably been involved with around 40 patients that have tried either of them. When the ethical committee approved their latest cyclo study I guess they knew that the results from the open phase 2 were positive.

    Why wouldn't it be OK to try out Cyclo in a cancer department at a hospital when two patients first said they got better during cancer chemo for breast cancer, and then 3 more in a pilot study? In addition we have two RTX studies, and MTX that was used on a few patients.
     
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  5. Helen

    Helen Senior Member

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    A well respected doctor friend said to me "Who cares about M...s R.....s opinion" when he once earlier attacked ME/CFS. I wouldn´t care about this article either, as his job as a columnist is to provoke people. Very few doctors comment on his articles. I wouldn´t spend any more time on this.
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2015
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  6. Sidereal

    Sidereal Senior Member

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    This essay reads like a high school child's idea of science. It's not how things happen in practice.

    A perfectly reasonable approach for an exploratory, hypothesis-generating study which isn't trying to make any definitive statements, it's just setting the stage for future hypothesis-driven replications.
     
  7. jimells

    jimells Senior Member

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    I pretty much stopped reading after this. It seems strange that a medical journal prints an article by an author who admits he is ignorant of the topic.
     
  8. waiting

    waiting Senior Member

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    In the 1st paragraph, he says there is NO EVIDENCE there is anything wrong with patients' immune systems.

    In the last paragraph, he says there IS EVIDENCE there is something wrong with patients' immune systems.

    ???
     
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  9. adreno

    adreno PR activist

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    Right.
     
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  10. deleder2k

    deleder2k Senior Member

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    Sorry. My bad. I have corrected it now. He says two times that we have no proof of immune abnormalities.
     
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  11. Sherlock

    Sherlock tart cherry etc. for joints, insomnia

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    Exactly! It's the perfectly right thing to do.

    But I also can't help thinking how good it would be if they released their data and let the world at large look for patterns, amateurs included. I am reminded that amateur astronomers found many comets, including the famous Shoemaker-Levy that crashed into Jupiter. It can help to have a lot of eyes looking for things.
     
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  12. Snow Leopard

    Snow Leopard Hibernating

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    In some diseases, it was the treatment that gave hints as to the underlying pathology, rather than the other way around. This seems to be a fact this doctor seems to have forgotten.

    If these drugs demonstrate continued efficacy, then it gives a big "pay attention" message to the scientific community in general.

    This guy isn't a scientist, so that probably explains why he doesn't seem to understand where scientific insights come from.
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2015
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  13. Jonathan Edwards

    Jonathan Edwards "Gibberish"

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    I feel sorry for this paediatrician that his potty training should have left him with such an anal view of the world.

    Discovering drugs through chance observations in unrelated situations is probably more common than trying them because you have a good reason.

    I guess he has to be a paediatrician since adult patients are not going to go and see someone with such a negative and ill-inofrmed attitude to their disease.
     
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  14. deleder2k

    deleder2k Senior Member

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    I agree. Do you think one shouldn't reply to this "babble" at all? I feel like this s### should be answered. He writes technical so that is hard for those with non-medical expertise to answer. Fluge doesn't engage in public debate. At least he hasnt for a while so I guess he won't write back.
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2015
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  15. Jonathan Edwards

    Jonathan Edwards "Gibberish"

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    I would leave him in his hole.
     
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  16. deleder2k

    deleder2k Senior Member

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    The problem is that many will believe in this crap if no one responds to it... Maybe I at least should comment under his article. He actually responds to comments on the article he writes, so that can be interesting.
     
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  17. Esther12

    Esther12 Senior Member

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    He wrote stuff about anti-psychiatry patients vs PACE too. It is what it is.
     
  18. deleder2k

    deleder2k Senior Member

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    At least the Rituximab study is out in afew weeks/months now. But, I am guessing he will object to that too :)
     
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  19. Sasha

    Sasha Fine, thank you

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    I honestly wouldn't give him the oxygen of publicity. If the editor see he's getting a reaction they'll give him more airtime. Just ignore him. Sooner or later the research will run him over like a steamroller.
     
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  20. deleder2k

    deleder2k Senior Member

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    Sounds wise. Some label this man as D.U.M.B, Doctor with Unexplained Medical Belief (D.U.M.B.)
     
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