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Article: What Science Giveth Science Try to Taketh Away: Science Journal Asks WPI To Retract XMRV CF

Discussion in 'Phoenix Rising Articles' started by Phoenix Rising Team, May 30, 2011.

  1. WillowJ

    WillowJ Senior Member

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    um, thanks Cort but I know exactly what I wrote... maybe you should read it again? :innocent1:

    bang head on wall, but science isn't about the number of studies... early science is always difficult as we sort out what is important. could be, xmrv is not important, or could be, methods are important. since so few people have even tried to replicate methods, and even some of those that had a good try did not use the exact methods or the WPI-recommended reagents, we still don't know the answers!
  2. mojoey

    mojoey Senior Member

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    I find the emphasis on numbers of negative studies as the basis for retraction to be disturbing. Never have the lines been blurred between science and politics so much. Doesn't it only take one correct study for something to be correct? And how many times does it need to be repeated that there hasn't been a single true replication done?

  3. currer

    currer Senior Member

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    I increasingly get the feeling that attempts are going on to bury the connection between MLVs and illness.
    So from Corts post, Dr Alter said he could not find XMRV "only" PMLVs. Wouldn't PMLVs also be pathogenic? Didn't Alter and Lo clearly assume that they were when writing their paper? So this is not reassuring is it? So why the attitude that there is nothing more to investigate?
    Even supposing that XMRV were a lab created retrovirus from only the 90s - which I think is far from proven - what is to stop other similar MLVs from being implicated in earlier outbreaks of this disease? Retroviruses recombine all the time. JM says that she finds many related MLVs in her patients.

    There are so many possibilities to explore. Why these quick denials and then the urgency to move on to another hypothetical virus? One the scientists clearly would feel happier with.

    Why this obsessive focus on XMRV. Other MLVs in patients are likely to be pathogens. They certainly are in mice!
    So even if you disproved XMRV that is only the beginning of the questions needing answers.

    These are really quick and dirty responses.
  4. Francelle

    Francelle Senior Member

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    What a beautiful, sensitive post Fatima! It brought tears to my eyes too and a prayer for that young girl's future!
  5. Francelle

    Francelle Senior Member

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  6. Francelle

    Francelle Senior Member

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    I agree that these systems (mitochondrial & cellular) have probably gone awry in M.E/CFS however these things don't just happen out of the blue. Infectious, genetic & lifestyle causes often underpin pathological changes in the human body, so a retroviral basis is well within the limits of possibility!
  7. Bob

    Bob

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    I'm not aware of Lo and Alter ever reporting that they have found any XMRV either. (But they may well be looking for it.)

    We don't know the full picture about XMRV, and how exactly it potentially affects humans.

    It might turn out to be the case that XMRV is just one variant in a range of different MLV-like human viruses.

    Judy Mikovits now likes to refer to HGRV's rather than XMRV to highlight this possibility.

    If this is the case, then PMRV fits into this picture.

    Alter says that he considers XMRV and PMRV to be different variants of the same virus.

    Now Judy has also detected PMRVs (or pXMRV, as she calls it), and she has now also detected other HGRV's. I think she has detected the friend strain of 'spleen focus forming virus' which is actually incorporated an XMRV sequence in it, so it is closely related to XMRV. (I'm not certain about the details of all this yet - I have to catch up with some reading - so please don't quote me!)
  8. currer

    currer Senior Member

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    I increasingly think that all the debate is focussed as much on money as science. The WPI would have patents on their "discovery". No more money to be made out of XMRV then! But disprove it and find another and bingo! rich for life!
  9. jace

    jace Off the fence

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    Meanwhile, millions are suffering. All we want is honest science, not this spin and political manoeuvring. Dr Jamie's blog post contains links to the responses from Annette Whittemore and Judy Mikovits here: http://treatingxmrv.blogspot.com/2011/05/sad-day-for-patients.html (second paragraph).

    Annette's response shows just how different the high profile papers have been, both in method and in patient selection. Cort, would you consider studying it?

    We have yet to see a replication study, which is the way to prove or disprove Lombardi et al 2009. So far we have had one validation paper, Lo et al (discounting La Caixa), and a series of failed attempts, using different methodology and cohorts, that mean nothing.
  10. Cort

    Cort Phoenix Rising Founder

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    Here's a quote from Dr. Alter that was recently reported


  11. Cort

    Cort Phoenix Rising Founder

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    I was surprised to see how many differences there were and good for them for pointing out the problems they see. I am going to try and run it by some people.

    I just saw, by the way, that the National Cancer Institute has posted on their webpage a statement that the XMRV results in both CFS and prostate cancer are due to contamination - which really surprised me. They and much of the research community apparently do think that these differences, although I grant there are many, are important. Its a puzzle that's for sure...
  12. justinreilly

    justinreilly Stop the IoM & P2P! Adopt CCC!

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    I hope Hillary Johnson, or someone, is writing this all down! With all the twists, turns, powerplays, life and death stakes, crimes and misdeeds, this will be an even better book than Osler's Web!
  13. anciendaze

    anciendaze Senior Member

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    Did a journal ever ask Dr. Stephen Straus to retract his amateur psychiatry paper on the psychopathology of CFS?
    "Lifetime History of Psychiatric Illness in People with Chronic Fatigue Syndrome"

    Cohort: about two dozen selected by Dr. Straus on undefined criteria from a larger number referred to him.
    Data: resulted from patient interviews and opinions of researcher.
    Premorbid conditions included simple phobias. No consideration that premorbid depression could result from organic illness. Two subjects reported to be alcoholic, in an illness especially noted for alcohol intolerance. Results extrapolated to about a million people.

    Press release sent to 500 reporters and organizations.
  14. HowToEscape?

    HowToEscape? Senior Member

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    re 2:42 am
    "I increasingly get the feeling that attempts are going on to bury the connection between MLVs and illness."

    How do we know that MLVs cause illness, much less ours? There seems to be some link in prostate cancer, but that's open to question with the new understanding of subtle contamination in the testing materials themselves.

    As a group we've definitely been treated like dirt. But don't blame the virologists. Look at who owns the show not the actors on stage.
  15. WillowJ

    WillowJ Senior Member

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    yep, that's what I said, too :)
  16. jace

    jace Off the fence

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    I'm glad you found the information gathered in Annette's reply to Science interesting, Cort. We will be interested to read about the responses you get.

    HowToEscape, you say
    and yet there is reams of research going back many years available online showing murine leukemia retroviruses cause disease, particularly neurological disease and cancers, in animals. Here's three to be going on with.

    G L Shen-Ong and L Wolff; Moloney murine leukemia virus-induced myeloid tumors in adult BALB/c mice: requirement of c-myb activation but lack of v-abl involvement; J Virol. 1987 December; 61(12): 37213725. PMCID: PMC255984

    A Jinno-Oue, S G. Wilt, C Hanson, N V. Dugger, P M. Hoffman, M Masuda,3 and S K. Ruscetti Expression of Inducible Nitric Oxide Synthase and Elevation of Tyrosine Nitration of a 32-Kilodalton Cellular Protein in Brain Capillary Endothelial Cells from Rats Infected with a Neuropathogenic Murine Leukemia Virus Journal of Virology, May 2003, p. 5145-5151, Vol. 77, No. 9?DOI: 10.1128/JVI.77.9.5145-5151.2003

    Jolicoeur P, Rassart E, Des Grosellers L, Robitaille Y, Paquette Y and Kay DG. Retrovirus-Induced Motor Neuron Disease of Mice: Molecular Basis of Neurotropism and Paralysis Advances in Neurology, Vol 56:43:481-493

    And let us not forget Lombardi 2011, where the random forest algorithm picked out the XMRV+ ME/CFS patients by their cytokine profile.
  17. currer

    currer Senior Member

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    In my opinion the attacks on the WPI are political in nature and motivated by a fear of the consequences of disease caused by XMRV and related retroviruses. As others have pointed out here, there is a bias in the "evidence" which is accepted which is unfair to the WPI.
    My opinion is THE WPI ARE RIGHT AND EVERYONE ELSE IS WRONG. There, that is so much simpler than all this explaining and analysis!

    I think Ill get a t-shirt made.

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