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Article: What Science Giveth Science Try to Taketh Away: Science Journal Asks WPI To Retract XMRV CF

Discussion in 'Phoenix Rising Articles' started by Phoenix Rising Team, May 30, 2011.

  1. Molly

    Molly

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    $$$$$$ & Politics; Politics & $$$$$. Who really cares about those who suffer the misery of ME/cfs? Until......it becomes them!!
  2. currer

    currer Senior Member

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    The whole reason XMRV was found, Cort was because researchers were looking for a sexually transmitted virus. Prostate cancer has tripled in all age groups in the last thirty years. XMRV has been found in prostate tissues, (not the blood), and prostate cancer is the only cancer to be LESS common in HIV positive individuals on antiretrovirals, (as the antiretrovirals are also effective against XMRV.)
    All the evidence is that prostate cancer is transmissible, and XMRV is a likely cause. XMRV does infect humans and can be passed on.

    We need to look for XMRV in the tissues of CFS/ME patients. Everyone knows it is in very low copy numbers in blood. Until tissue studies are done it is WAY TOO SOON to try to stop this research.
  3. Dorothy

    Dorothy

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  4. Jemal

    Jemal Senior Member

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    To me it looks like they are playing both sides. They issued a stern warning, so to speak, but they leave the backdoor open for the BWG and Lipkin studies. They can't lose much of their reputation, whatever the outcome.
  5. anncavan

    anncavan

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    I agree with those who suggest withdrawl or retraction is premature. There are too many important studies coming down the pike and soon. Science has weight, and this action seems a bit wreckless to me.

    There is a facebook page in support of their NOT retracting the article. If the numbers get high enough, I think it could show Science that there are patients who support the continuation of research. If you're interested you can "like" it here:

    http://www.facebook.com/home.php#!/...-Retraction-of-Lombardi-et-al/134502569957481

    Keep on keepin on everyone! Just another blip.
  6. Cort

    Cort Phoenix Rising Founder

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  7. Cort

    Cort Phoenix Rising Founder

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    Yes, they are kind of having it both ways...they ask the WPI to retract the paper but then when the WPI refuses - they don't retract the paper....there seems to be a lapse in logic there. There may be higher standards, though, for a journal to retract a paper than for an author to.....
  8. Snow Leopard

    Snow Leopard Senior Member

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  9. WillowJ

    WillowJ Senior Member

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    You cannot count 28 labs as if they all meant something. Some of those are clearly spurious, as they used stunningly bad inclusions and methods--used samples which had been thawed and refrozen multiple times, samples which had been actively screened to remove those which had any evidence of the patient having any kind of infection, didn't bother to use any sort of controls, and so forth.

    Secondly, the genetic variability between pMLV's and XMRV is less than that between different strains of HIV-1. I appreciate that there's a difference in what they are able to infect, but it seems silly--and political--to say that Lo doesn't count as replicating, particularly when Lo et al. specifically said their paper "clearly support the central argument by Lombardi et al. that MLV-related viruses are associated with CFS and are present in some blood donors." If you argue that it doesn't count, you're contradicting none other than Dr. Harvey Alter.
  10. WillowJ

    WillowJ Senior Member

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    CAA and CDC tried that, and it didn't work. Bottom line is, health authority tells doctors the disease is confusing and has no answers, and they believe the disease is hogwash and the patients who have that label are undeserving and possibly faking it.

    We need research, and we need the health authorities to acknowledge the disease pathology. From that, respect will follow. A better name would help a lot, too.
  11. currer

    currer Senior Member

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    In fact we need the WPI and Judy Mikovits.
  12. WillowJ

    WillowJ Senior Member

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    we most certainly do
  13. jeffrez

    jeffrez Senior Member

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    Have people figured out they've been scammed yet? Or is the denial still too strong? How much more evidence is needed, with dozens of negative paper and essentially only one positive paper - from the people who are making money from a positive paper, what a coincidence. :rolleyes:

    Research needs to go into the mitochondrial & cellular energy/ATP production defects that are DOCUMENTED in ME/CFS and the interplay with the immune system dysfunctions that are also DOCUMENTED. XRMV is a red herring at best - a minor player if at all that would only be significant if it did play a part in CFS because of the already existing mito & neurommimune dysfunction. Better just to cut your losses and move on. Putting all your eggs in the XMRV basket is only going to delay the disappointment further.
  14. Snow Leopard

    Snow Leopard Senior Member

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    Mr.Kite - Even if the WPI results are in error, they are in good company - the list of researchers who have coauthored articles with positive XMRV findings in humans is not short. A honest mistake is a far cry from a scam. I suggest you retract your comment.
  15. WillowJ

    WillowJ Senior Member

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    Exactly so. I recommend a retraction of the "scam" and "denial" comments as well.

    We need both other-than-XMRV research and to see the XMRV research to the end, so we will know for sure one way or the other. At this point we do not know for sure.

    http://www.wpinstitute.org/news/docs/FinalreplytoScienceWPI.pdf
  16. Bob

    Bob

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    If you look at all of the unfolding evidence, Mr Kite, and not just the negative studies, then it doesn't look like a scam to me at all.
    For example, there now seems to be a considerable scientific consensus that XMRV is a wild human virus.
    Also, don't you think that it is possible that the mitochondrial and immune issues that you refer to might possibly have a viral cause, whether XMRV or another virus?
  17. Dorothy

    Dorothy

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    Actually, Switzer said at the time that they'd found simian retroviruses in the workers, NOT XMRV. He was going to look closer. I took another look at the video from CROI. It is accurately transcribed by the post I referenced. So no, the CDC had not been able (at least at the time of the CROI conference) to find XMRV in its workers but they were very interested in looking since they felt it might be an issue. So it's incorrect to say that the CDC's findings hurt XMRV in CFS, since they hadn't been able to find XMRV in non-CFS patients either. And WPI was correct to point out that they couldn't find XMRV.
  18. Dorothy

    Dorothy

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    Oops, I did not handle the quotation function correctly - in the above post I'm responding to a quote by Cort, not by me! Sorry. A bad brain day.
  19. Cort

    Cort Phoenix Rising Founder

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    Of course there were poor studies in there and there were very good studies and there were in-between studies. The point is alot of people have looked for it and no one has been able to find it....That is alot of studies...alot of mistakes alot of labs have to make in order to miss XMRV. Singh tried from 9-12 tests per sample......

    Look more carefully at what you wrote...Lo/Alter never said that they found XMRV;When I asked Dr. Alter if he knew why he said because it wasn't there...They found pMLV's...yes,.they felt they could support the central theory of Lombardi (I don't know if they feel that now) but they did not find XMRV.
  20. BobM

    BobM

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    Science is working, Patients must allow it to proceed

    THe Virus Hunter
    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-...dy-that-sparked-ban-may-have-been-flawed.html
    Clinical Trial
    The study of 150 patients with chronic fatigue syndrome and another 150 healthy volunteers should be complete by early 2012, said Ian Lipkin, a professor of epidemiology at Columbia University in New York, who is leading the effort. Until the research is complete, its too soon to know whether there is a link between a virus and chronic fatigue, he said.

    Calls to retract the paper at this point are premature, said Lipkin, director of Columbias Center for Infection and Immunity, in a telephone interview. We need to let this study take its course, look at the data in a coherent fashion and figure out what it tells us. While interesting, the publications dont dissuade us from continuing our work.

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