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Article: Four Viruses! Alter Paper Confirms Retroviral Findings in CFS

Discussion in 'Phoenix Rising Articles' started by Phoenix Rising Team, Aug 24, 2010.

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  1. V99

    V99 *****

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  2. V99

    V99 *****

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    Here are some important quotes for everyone:

    and this

  3. V99

    V99 *****

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    It will be as others have said, that they did not use a known human sample to calibrate to. That they were carefully looking, but perhaps in the wrong place.
  4. Cort

    Cort Phoenix Rising Founder

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    Almost everything in those quotes is in my 'nonsense' paper as you put it. To show how difficult this is in the paper they refer to geographic prevalence of the virus, primers and patient cohort heterogeneity and then Dr. Lo talks about how rare the virus is. All those elements (except for geographic prevalence) are present in my article.
  5. camas

    camas Senior Member

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    Science has an article up on the latest findings. I thought everyone might take heart from the last sentence of the last paragraph:

    Subtle differences in sample collection and handling, or in the way tests are performed, could also have led the four labs to miss the virus. But CDCs Monroe says hes confident that his lab can identify XMRV correctly. As part of the NHLBI program, researchers at FDA, CDC, WPI, and other labs have all blindly tested a panel of samples, some of them spiked with different amounts of the virus; all of them performed well. Further exchange of samples and reagents is now under way. They should be able to clear this up by Christmas, says Kurth.
  6. jace

    jace Off the fence

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    And there was I with link ready copied, and its been given twice already. Oy vay.

    Just as an aside, and by the way, all the semantics of this science are in flux, being assigned as the discoveries progress. No XMRV, MLV, ME, XAND, NDS (or whatever it is) GERD etc is yet set in stone. A certain humility is appropriate.

    Words only try to describe reality.
  7. V99

    V99 *****

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    The nonsense was for the facts that were nonsense. As in, don't make sense, not factual, nothing more. You have been changing your article, so it's not a case of saying they are there. The quotes are not aimed at you, they are information for everyone else who doesn't want to read the paper, but likes to at least interpret things for themselves.
  8. V99

    V99 *****

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    That's true Jace. They have a long way to go to position everything. Lots of renaming and classifying to come
  9. parvofighter

    parvofighter Senior Member

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    Is there something to reconcile?

    <link rel="File-List" href="file:///E:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5CDANIEL%7E1%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmsohtml1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml"><o:smarttagtype namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:eek:ffice:smarttags" name="PersonName"></o:smarttagtype><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:punctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <w:DontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156"> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if !mso]><object classid="clsid:38481807-CA0E-42D2-BF39-B33AF135CC4D" id=ieooui></object> <style> st1\:*{behavior:url(#ieooui) } </style> <![endif]--><style> <!-- /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {mso-style-parent:""; margin:0in; margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";} a:link, span.MsoHyperlink {color:blue; text-decoration:underline; text-underline:single;} a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:purple; text-decoration:underline; text-underline:single;} p {mso-margin-top-alt:auto; margin-right:0in; mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto; margin-left:0in; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";} @page Section1 {size:8.5in 11.0in; margin:1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in; mso-header-margin:.5in; mso-footer-margin:.5in; mso-paper-source:0;} div.Section1 {page:Section1;} --> </style><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]--> This may be a helpful addition to the discussion on reconciling the findings of XMRV vs MLV. The transcription excerpts from XMRV Global Action: http://www.facebook.com/notes.php?id=216740433250#!/note.php?note_id=432527206796

    Question: Lauren Niergard: Associated Press "Does finding that its polytropic actually suggest a looser correlation with CFS than finding of Xenotropic would have? It would seem to suggest more of a process of chance than a firm association."
    <o:p></o:p>
    Dr Lo. " Normally the PCR lab contamination you more or less anticipate that all the sequences will be the same..."
    <o:p></o:p>
    Lauren: "But what I was thinking of was not lab contamination, but rather you are finding essentially multiple different kinds of viruses withing the same family."
    <o:p></o:p>
    Dr Lo: "Right they are in the same family. They are compatible with the earlier finding of the XMRV. They are not identical, they are more diverse."
    <o:p></o:p>
    Lauren: "Is it usual that you would find an association with a single disease this kind of variety of viruses."
    <o:p></o:p>
    Dr Lo: "Yes, indeed, that is exactly what we would anticipate for retrovirus infection over time with the many different sequences there."

    <o:p></o:p>Dr Alter: "Just on that last point, the retroviruses exist in big families of viruses. So Hep C is a very good example. Nobody is infected with one variant of HCV. It is a huge family of variants, HCV divided by genotypes and HIV divided by clades. And if you take any given patient the patient will have multiple variants in them. And different patients will have different variants in them. So it is very characteristic of these kind of RNA viruses...."

    <o:p></o:p>Dr McCluskey... "Just reiterating Dr Alter<st1:personname w:st="on">'</st1:personname>s point. I think that is the essence of the characteristics of these retroviruses. That their polymerase is really faulty and creates lots of mutations. So you would never have just one single species - causes multiple species..."

    <o:p></o:p>Lauren: "So this is basically then saying that there is a stronger association than you had before because of that variability."

    <o:p></o:p>Dr Lo: "I think we can say we found this kind of variability and that is actually more consistent with the natural form of a retrovirus infections in this group of patients."

    Hope this helps...
    <o:p></o:p>
  10. V99

    V99 *****

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    I was just going to post that bit before from that same transcript:

  11. Cort

    Cort Phoenix Rising Founder

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    Arrrrgghhh. Nothing in there was 'nonsense' I assure you. This *(79w2$)P)*()* is nonsense - it doesn't mean anything. Changing something does not mean what was there was there before was 'nonsense'.

    I'm checking out of our lovely conversation, though. Hopefully I'll be back tonight with an addition to the paper that I think will be enlightening - it certainly was to me.
  12. SironaL

    SironaL

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    Even when the CDC is able to detect the virus in a panel of samples it is still possible that they have problems with collecting/storing/handling the samples before the actual testing. Especially when they used plasma. It could be critical to immediately centrifuge whole blood to get the plasma, because the longer the blood is stored before centrifugation, the more time antibodies in the blood have to form complexes with the virions and those antibodies can make those virion adhere to cells in the blood (macrophages express Fc-receptors that bind antibodies etc.) and the more time virions will have to attach to blood cells with their surface proteins as they do when they infect new cells. This would cause most if not all virions to end up at the bottem of the centrifugation tubes after centrifugation and this pellet is not tested for virus when they use the plasma.
    This is just my thinking about this matter, i do not claim it is correct, only an hypothesis.
    About myself: I'm a CFS patient for 6 years, not able to study 90% of that time and only able to progress towards my degree in biomedical sciences at a very slow pace. But i won't give up and the current science does give me hope, although i would rather have something else than a retrovirus, it is certainly better than being labeled as a psychiatric patient!
  13. V99

    V99 *****

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    Facts that are incorrect are. If you changed facts, it means you were using the incorrect facts previously. The point is when is it factually correct, as soon as it is posted, 10mins, 20mins, 2 days?

    You should have asked for information before posting, most people will only read it once, and never know that you changed something.

    Well, tonight is now for me.

    All this is about is facts. Lets not start spreading false information around the world like those who began the lie about the WPI cohort.
  14. V99

    V99 *****

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    That's very true, all possibilities are still open, but some just got a bit weaker.
  15. V99

    V99 *****

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    Cort, I have just noticed that you are again changing your posts after they have been up for quiet a while. There is no point in changing how the posts have gone, it is easy to spot. You did it the other day when you 'emphatically' stated that an infectious agent was not the cause of ME, and then altered the words to prevent the embarrassment when I posted multiple quotes of doctors saying that the cause is most likely an infectious agent. You are now attempting to make it look like I am not responding to some of your points or questions.

    So here's one point I will answer, and then wont bother as you will continue to alter the timeline.
    If I chose to write an article myself I would get my facts right. That's the easy bit. But why should I do something I have no interest in doing, because you are upset that you are putting out incorrect information. That is a child's game. I will continue to get my information from scientific papers.
  16. oceanblue

    oceanblue Senior Member

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    Cort, you're doing a fantastic job here, both with your excellent original article and the way you're updating it as points emerge on the forum: seems to me like a very powerful approach.

    I don't suppose I'm the only one here who thinks V99's personal attacks on you are way out of line. She makes some valid points - amidst the misunderstandings - but they are wrapped up in so much unnecessary bile that it makes the forum an unpleasant place to be for everyone else, let alone you.

    I'd thought we were all on the same side?
  17. Sam Carter

    Sam Carter Guest

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    Totally agree.
  18. jonc

    jonc

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    And me. Please stop posting these aggressive attacks on Cort.

    People come here to read his reporting, not your self-important posturing.

    If you want to contribute to the debate, there's no reason why you can't do so in a respectful and objective manner.
  19. Kelvin Lord

    Kelvin Lord Ampligen Journalist

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    I had neither the time nor energy to read every one of these numerous points V99 is trying to make with Cort. Clearly V99, you are a smart person and a superb apologist. But seriously, for me to write 1/10th of the amount of words you've posted in the past 24 hours alone would take more energy than I had in a month! Judging by your mental acuity, your command of the English language, and the requisite energy it takes to write 5000+ words in so short a time, you may be one of the "healthiest" people who participate in this forum.

    Perhaps you would be willing to channel that energy into writing some of your own blogs, doing some original research, and keeping those of us who don't have your strength better informed?
  20. SOC

    SOC Moderator and Senior Member

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    Thanks, leaves, for saying exactly what I was thinking at this point in the thread.

    Personal attacks are both unnecessary and distressing to many of us.
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