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Article: An MD on the Lightning Process

Discussion in 'Phoenix Rising Articles' started by Phoenix Rising Team, Apr 30, 2010.

  1. Phoenix Rising Team

    Phoenix Rising Team

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  2. Dx Revision Watch

    Dx Revision Watch dxrevisionwatch.com

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    I shall have further comment to add, later. But firstly, a misconception on the part of Dr Frivold needs addressing:

    "I applaud the British National Health Service for granting funds for a randomized controlled study in children."

    Funding for the pilot study in children is not being provided by the NHS. Funding has been awarded externally by the Linbury Trust and the Ashden Trust.

    "I would also love to see objective, randomized, controlled studies of adults using the LP."

    No study should be undertaken involving children (a vulnerable patient group) until rigorous controlled trials have first been undertaken in adults.

    Dr Frivold may wish to familiarise himself with MRC research ethics guidelines for research involving children.

    "MRC Medical Research Involving Children (Nov 2004, revised Aug 2007)" and in particular, sections 4.1 and 4.3 which he can access here:

    http://www.mrc.ac.uk/Utilities/Documentrecord/index.htm?d=MRC002430

    Whether the pilot study has received research ethics approval is in the process of being established.

    A Freedom of Information request has been raised in relation to this proposed pilot study a copy of which can be accessed here: http://tinyurl.com/FOIrequestLP1

    Questions raised include:

    a) No rigorous controlled trials have been published on the application of the Lightning Process in adults. What data has been used in order to establish that overall the likely benefits of the research outweigh any risks to the participants?

    With reference to the document "MRC Medical Research Involving Children (Nov 2004, revised Aug 2007)" sections 4.1 and 4.3, what is the rationale for undertaking a pilot study in children when rigorous controlled trials have yet to be undertaken and results published on the application of Lightning Process in adults?

    [...]

    d) Will children or their parents/guardians be expected to sign up in agreement with certain beliefs and commitments in order to demonstrate the child's "readiness" to undertake the program?

    If so, what beliefs and commitments will they be expected to sign up to and at what point in the recruitment process would agreement with beliefs and commitments be sought?

    For the purposes of the study, how will "readiness" be defined, by whom, and what tools will be used to assess or determine a child's "readiness"?

    e) If selection for and participation in the study does not involve the signing up in agreement with certain beliefs and commitments, either by the child or by their parents / guardians on their behalf, through what means are children to be assessed for suitability for and potential to benefit from the application of the Lightning Process?

    f) By what means will it be determined that undergoing the training program would not be detrimental to a child's current health status, as a patient diagnosed with CFS/ME?

    What safeguards will be put in place to avoid the potential for exacerbation of existing symptoms or the development of new symptoms whilst undertaking the sessions, in-between sessions and in the weeks and months following completion of the program?

    What support will be given to children and their families if a child were to experience exacerbation of existing symptoms or develop new symptoms as a result of participating in the program or as a result of practicing the instructions in-between sessions or in the weeks and months following completion of the program?

    g) It is understood that the Lightning Process is being marketed by some franchised "instructors/trainers/coaches" as a process that should be effective for all participants in resolving their symptoms if

    a) they are "ready" to undertake the process and
    b) they carry out the instructions properly.

    This might be considered to place a considerable burden of responsibility on a vulnerable research group and their families in terms of compliance and outcome.

    What consideration has been given to the issue of power imbalances where participants (or their families) may feel obliged to please or comply with the researcher's requests or with "instructor/trainer/coach" requests while the program is being delivered, and beyond, throughout the life of the project?

    By what means will it be determined that undergoing the "process" will not be detrimental to the child's psychological well-being or impact negatively on the family dynamic if the child failed to gain benefit from the program, or if the child were to experience set-back or significant relapse during or following the program, or if apparent improvement or resolution of symptoms/disability following the program were short-lived?

    What safeguards will be put in place in order to protect the child's psychological well-being?


    Suzy Chapman
    http://meagenda.wordpress.com
    Calathea likes this.
  3. starryeyes

    starryeyes Senior Member

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    Thank you Suzy for asking these important questions.

    The Lightning Process is CBT and can be very harmful if pushed on patients with ME/CFS. I'm concerned that LP is being promoted here on PR.
  4. Cheryl Benson

    Cheryl Benson

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    I saw this on on another sie or similar days back, I decided not to make a response at the time . Seeing it here, and other comments I will say a few words.

    From the outset I didnt;t like this. I agree that the power of the mind, emotional trauma's, stress affect every cell in your body, so does your thinking. There is no argument about that, and I see it as a modality that can or may be used by some to help retrain their brains from being so symptom focused which I am, and the flight or fight. Others say, if we were connected with source we could cure ourselves in minutes, but we aren't. others say we manifest all our illnesses, for reasons subconsciously, some contracts made before we even came to earth with other groups or people. Cancer included, dementia and altimerzers are known as illnesses where the person has elected to leave the earth that way, they all are, no matter how we die, it is said by many.

    So spiritually and mentally this makes some sense to me although i don't know all the program and wouldn't be able to do it if my life depended on it, it would probably kill or almost kill me unless they did it in my home, even then. I think a lot of people who take this don't have genuine ME/CFS, perhaps as someone noted incorrectly above about CFS and Major depression being the same symptoms, which they are not, some have some similarities. You can have both.

    I am here to tell you, that I was devastated by ME/CFS neurologically, my brain and CNS, flu symptoms, the post exertional fatigue, severe hormonal problems and PMS, I could barely stand often or walk, or stand to be in my own body from the sensory overload, and I didn't know what it was or what was happening, I thought I was going crazy. I wasn't depressed. It took years for me to start having bouts of depression, although I had thought of taking my life prior, it wasn't from depression (until I was on the antidepressants then I was thinking about it a lot), I just couldn't stand being in my body, and I didn't think I could keep living with it.

    I went into Major depression from antidepressants, that damaged me for life and repeated misdiagnosis saying my ME/CFS was depression and psychiatric even though diagnosed by a Infectious Disease Specialist and going through a battery of tests in 1991. When I got off the medications, it took years, so much damage, and my CNS worse, but I didn't have major depression after I got off their drugs. I still had more severe M.E./CFS with the extensive damage on top it has just about killed me. For me Major depression, and CFS/ME are not the same, and I am shocked that someone that claims to have ME/CFS would say such a thing. there are too many other differences that depression does not have. I also have most of the symptoms in the Canadian Definition and always have from onset with fluctuations. I reported 30 t o my doctor in 1993.

    I was diagnosed by a specialist, in 1991, who diagnosed more than 400 since the lake Tahoe breakout, I was told I had CFS but that it was similar or identical to ME. He called it CFS because that is what they call it in North America. I understand it is an umbrella group for many post viral and other elements where people end up with many of the same symptoms. I know people who were helped by antidepressants with ME/CFS, they still had all the other devastating symptoms of ME/CFS, which fluctuate in severity and course of time periods for many people.

    I first went to a psychologist to help me mentally to survive this and change my thoughts in 1992, and in the hopes I may be able to continue to work part time (which I coudn't I just got worse). She used the lousie hay method and others. it helped but it was like white washing a fence post which the rain washes off and for every thought it took 2 months to change, and didn't stay. I worsened over time, especially after the drugging started. Even now, the positive affirmatins stuff ad thinking helps, but some times makes do difference

    If it helps her and others fine, if you claim it cured you, I don't believe they had ME/CFS. I do believe it would help with anyone's thinking although I have not studied it myself, I did subscribe to a few and another program nickel therapy or something, and ended that fast.

    definitely any mind-body approach is helpful, a must, some people with ME/CFS often have no depression .

    As for using children for testing that is outrageous. what I see is a cheap method for government to take like GET (which could kill some of us, most make us worse) or CBT, instead of the desperate funding and research we need for ME/CFS for treatments, cures ad supports. It appears we got left behind after AIDS, maybe purposely. Also big pharma doesn't know if it can make enough money from us, and if we have enough $ to pay, especially if the government isn't dishing out funds, this also plays as a factor.

    I am working on mind change and meditation with holosync, and yes I need more help in this area and have considered the one Cort took, but I wasn't thrilled with the few videos I got and didn't go ahead.

    It would be interesting if they had in-house and online, I saw mention they do over the phone, what if you can not possibly physically do what they want, i/e/ impossible.

    I may read more as it comes out, as now it is said that this isn't being kept in secret when before it appeared it was for LP.

    thx for posting
    Namaste
    Cheryl
  5. Cheryl Benson

    Cheryl Benson

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    I thought about the PR as well on the other site, someone mentioned marketing schemes. I wonder if that is part of being accepted into the program. If this is going to help some people great, I can also see it harming some of us.
  6. Wayne

    Wayne Senior Member

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    Hi All,

    ME Agenda, Cheryl, thanks much for your posts. Much to think about.

    My own take on the Lightening Process and other similar modalities is that they do seem to work (in varying degrees) for some people. I think a lot of depends on how many layers of "distress" any given individual is experiencing. The number of layers and degrees of dysfunction depends on so many factors, including how long one has had ME.

    The fewer the "layers" and "degrees of dysfunction" the more likely some kind of mind/body exercise will work. A lot probably also depends on how much of a mind/body approach any individual has incorporated into their lives prior to trying a specific program (like LP).

    I myself have explored and tried at all kinds of mediation, visualizations, affirmations, etc. I eventually came up with an individualized mind/body approach that works well for me by using a combination of things. Having put so much time and effort (decades) into this process, I doubt any kind of LP techniques could offer any kind of significant improvement for me (I've read a fair amount on their processes).

    A lingering question in my own mind is whether the supposedly many people who have been helped my LP will eventually get themselves tested for XMRV. If XMRV turns out to be a causative factor in ME, and LP works to the point of overcoming the effects of XMRV, then it seems like LP would work with people infected with HIV as well.

    Does anybody know if LP claims to work for other illnesses besides ME/CFS? It has always seemed to me that if LP can truly affect a complex and debilitating illness like ME/CFS, then it should also work with less serious health issues like impaired vision, or impaired hearing, or acne, or psoriasis, Chron's disease, etc.

    Perhaps I think a little too much. :Retro smile:

    Best Regards, Wayne
  7. flex

    flex *****

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    welcome to the shopping channel folks

    jim : What we got today Daisy
    daisy : Well, Jim we got 200 left foot sneakers for people who like to hop"

    jim: Wow, Daisy tell us more
    daisy: We got millions of magnesium filled MMR jabs

    jim: Woooo!
    daisy: And my personal favourite is something called the LP course. This is for people with neuro immune disease who wanna get better in minutes. It’s the new improved LP course. Unlike the old one you don’t even have to take the 3 day course. All you gotta do Jim is send of the cheque and we will do the rest. But you gota be ready and be a believer. We will just kiss the cheque on arrival and hey presto the job is done .

    Jim: Woo daisy sounds great, how does it work.

    Daisy: Sorry folks Jim appears to have blown up.
    Ok lets start the bidding at 600 we got millions of courses for everyone folks so no need to worry. We also have a kiddy course fully endorsed by Dr Shullbit and his newly motivated sidekick and LP shareholder. They liked it so much they bought into the company.

    Producer : Keep it up daisy and don’t ever mention Jims name again. We are bringing in the replacement Magic Johnson NBA allstar to replace him any second now, so keep taliking.

    Daisy: O wow folks heres Magic Johnson to tell you a little more about the LP

    Producer in Magics ear: Just say anything Magic to shift these courses you are being paid well to do so.




    Magic johnson: I tried the LP, I liked it so much the company paid me to say so. I mean I bought the company.

    Producer: godammit, jump in Daisy!!!

    Daisy: well...... we also got a number of special offer puppets on a string going dirt cheap. We will be back right after this break folks.
  8. maryb

    maryb iherb code TAK122

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    Flex :Sign giggle:
  9. Kati

    Kati Patient in training

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    Priceless Flex
  10. valia

    valia Senior Member

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    Flex, me too :Sign giggle:


    I haven't read the LP article myself, I always skip the ads
  11. Dx Revision Watch

    Dx Revision Watch dxrevisionwatch.com

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    http://www.lightningprocess.com/what-does-it-work-for.aspx

    Over the years we've discovered that it's such a powerful process that it seems to be very effective in areas where people feel stuck. Due to the nature of the training we can't guarantee results as every individual is different, however we have had considerable success in helping people with chronic health issues.

    "This includes, but is not limited to

    ■Addiction
    ■Anxiety & Panic attacks
    ■Chronic back and neck pain and headaches
    ■Depression
    ■Eating issues
    ■Eczema
    ■Fear of failure
    ■Fibromyalgia
    ■IBS and Digestive problems
    ■Insomnia
    ■Low self esteem, self-doubt, guilt and even self-hatred
    ■M.E. (Myalgic Encephalopathy)/Chronic Fatigue Syndrome [Ed: or rather "doing M.E."]
    ■M.S (Multiple Sclerosis)
    ■Obsessive compulsive disorder
    ■Smoking
    ■Stage fright and presentation fears
    ■Stress & Struggle


    And it's also effective for enhancing

    ■Relationships
    ■Discovering what you really want
    ■Interview performance
    ■Confidence
    ■Sleep"


    not forgetting Parker's take on XMRV:

    Phil Parker slide presentation on LP, CFS and XMRV:

    http://www.lightningprocess.com/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=Uz7/MsTEqpU=&tabid=371&language=en-US

    @ Slide 7

    "If we assume that on average:

    67% of the cases of CFS clients that are seen with the LP have the XMRV virus,

    And according to our findings 85% of these people recover their health in the 3 days of the LP programme

    The LP must be assisting these people to deal effectively with that infection in some way (we would hypothesise it is a resumption of good immune and neurological function)


    Chutzpah? He's got it in spades...

    He can step into folks' bodies too...


    http://www.philparker.org/healingpro.pdf

    "...Phil Parker is already known to many as an inspirational teacher, therapist, healer and author. His personal healing journey began when, whilst working with his patients as an osteopath. He discovered that their bodies would suddenly tell him important bits of information about them and their past, which to his surprise turned out to be factually correct! He further developed this ability to step into other peoples bodies over the years to assist them in their healing with amazing results. After working as a healer for 20 years, Phil Parker has developed a powerful and magical program to help you unlock your natural healing abilities. If you feel drawn to these courses then you are probably ready to join..."
  12. flex

    flex *****

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    Yeah sure Wayne this process works on anything, it can even bring back the dead.

    You know the 100 hundred metre Olympic champion Usain Bolt, well he was actually dead when he tried the LP course. Watch the link below to see the results and how he turned things around.

    With respect and in regards to your last comment - I don't think you have been thinking enough.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNZCGqRqadE
  13. Adam

    Adam *****

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    Magical Phil

    He can step into folks' bodies too...


    http://www.philparker.org/healingpro.pdf

    "...Phil Parker is already known to many as an inspirational teacher, therapist, healer and author. His personal healing journey began when, whilst working with his patients as an osteopath. He discovered that their bodies would suddenly tell him important bits of information about them and their past, which to his surprise turned out to be factually correct! He further developed this ability to step into other people‘s bodies over the years to assist them in their healing with amazing results. After working as a healer for 20 years, Phil Parker has developed a powerful and magical program to help you unlock your natural healing abilities. If you feel drawn to these courses then you are probably ready to join..."

    (my bolding)

    What a lucky guy old Phil is. Not only is he possessed of healing powers, he also has the abilty to command words to do his bidding in a manner something akin to Derren Brown, or David Blaine if you like. The difference between Derren and Phil is Derren Brown is a showman, and openly admits thoughout his 'show' he is deceiving you. Not sure how much Derren charges you to sit down at one of his performances - but a lot less than Phil I imagine?
  14. V99

    V99 *****

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    Any he tested his patients for XMRV where? :tear::tear::tear:
  15. Adam

    Adam *****

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    Questions Flex.

    Do you have an agent?
    How many hours a day do you watch the shopping channel?
    What happened after the break?
    Should I keep taking the pills?
    Has the Luton Town manager heard of the LP process?
  16. flex

    flex *****

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    Adam

    I can only answer one of your questions:

    After the break the whole world slipped into a Parallel Universe.
  17. Dx Revision Watch

    Dx Revision Watch dxrevisionwatch.com

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    I also wonder whether, before compiling his second commentary, Dr Frivold had taken the time to read all three active threads around LP on this forum or just the shortest thread in response to Cort's initial posting, that is, this one:

    http://www.forums.aboutmecfs.org/showthread.php?3628-Article-Lightning-Strikes-a-CFS-Patient
    Article: Lightning Strikes a CFS Patient (currently 46 posts)

    Absolutely, Bob, it is a very provocative piece; I also object very strongly to the inference that discussions have been "malignant". If Dr Frivold is referring to discussions that have taken place elsewhere then he should provide references so that we are able to evaluate his views on the level of discussion taking place elsewhere.

    Concerns about exposing young children to a "training program" when no RCTs have been conducted and published on LP in adults are very legitimate concerns which is why specific ethical guidelines are developed for research in vulnerable patient groups like children and the elderly.

    Agreed.

    I also feel that the title of Cort's blog post needs reconsideration.

    This is not a balanced report from a medical professional around the safety and efficacy of the application of an unregulated "training program" and a consideration of the ethical issues around the use of a vulnerable patient group, when no rigorous adult controlled trials have been undertaken [1]. It is a frequently provocative opinion piece written by a non ME and CFS specialist whose wife is now a licensed LP practitioner, herself.

    The question is Cort - where are you going to draw the line?

    Did you consider that you would overlook the provocative nature of some of Dr Frivold's opinions because he is an MD, himself? In your view, does Dr Frivold's status as a medical professional license him to publish contentious opinion and lob accusatory comment that you and your moderators might find unacceptable in forum members, themselves?

    If you are approached by other licensed LP practitioners who wish to set out their own experience of LP what are your editorial policies going to be?

    Will you be accepting any and all personal accounts from those who have undergone the "process" and have trained to become Phil Parker licensed LP practitioners, themselves, or only accounts by medical professionals who are now licensed to deliver LP "training" or from the spouses and family members of those who are now licensed to deliver LP "training", if they happen to be MDs or health professionals, themselves?

    I suggest you need to think very carefully how you will handle approaches in the future.

    Otherwise you run the risk of being perceived as someone prepared to use his platform to shill for unregulated, expensive, untested and very controversial "training" programs.

    [1] A pilot study in adults undertaken in the UK by Prof Leslie Findlay in 2007 was not published.

    Suzy Chapman
    http://meagenda.wordpress.com
  18. flex

    flex *****

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    Suzy,

    FOLLOW THE MONEY!!!
  19. Dx Revision Watch

    Dx Revision Watch dxrevisionwatch.com

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    A cautionary tale for site owners

    In October 2008, a comment for submitted for moderation on my WordPress site. The author wrote that she was very concerned with the way that Lightning Process was perceived on ME sites in general. She talked about her personal experience of LP and how she had benefited from it. She expressed what I considered to be quite confrontational opinions about the motivations of "ME activists".

    Towards the end of her comment she said that she had spent the last four months trying to publicise the training program in an informed and responsible way but had come up against what she viewed as an astonishing and unprofessional amount of negativity.

    I let the comment through. There had been no prior discussions on my site, via the comment facility, around LP.

    What I didn't know at the time I let this comment through was that this lady was a PR professional and that she was handling the PR account for Phil Parker. I was alerted to this by a third party.

    I wrote to this lady that I was most concerned that she had failed to adequately disclose what I considered, as a site owner, to be a conflict of interest.

    She disagreed.

    I gave her two options: either her initial comment and any further comments left on my site by her would need to carry a COI disclosure clearly setting out that she handled the PR for the Lighting Process company or her comments would have be taken down.

    There were already responses to her initial post from Angela Kennedy and from Cort, himself.

    Her response was that she did not accept that there was a COI and that rather than include a disclosure of interest on every post, she would prefer that I remove her initial posting - so I took the entire thread down.

    Around that time, as a result of a posting flagging up a CBT related petition, my site became the focus of therapists offering "Solution Focused Practice". A dozen individuals, some of whom were members and office holders on the committee of the "UK Association of Solution Focused Practice" left comments on my site.

    Some of these had failed to disclose that they were practitioners and in some cases, office holders of the "UK Association of Solution Focused Practice" but I was able to confirm this was the case by researching the organisation's membership register.

    This led to a number of exchanges with the National Development Officer of UKASFP during which I took the opportunity of providing him with a published paper - the Crowhurst Nursing Standard article on caring for the severely affected - which he said he would circulate to the members of his organisation.

    It was all very civil but exchanges of correspondence generated as a result of issues like the failure to disclose a COI when promoting therapies can take up a considerable amount of time.

    This is one reason why I no longer have a comment facility.

    Suzy Chapman
    http://meagenda.wordpress.com
  20. Dx Revision Watch

    Dx Revision Watch dxrevisionwatch.com

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    @ Flex

    You are very funny :D

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