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Article about ME/PACE for British newspaper - what do you want included?

Should the article discuss the PACE trial?

  • Yes - in depth

    Votes: 9 20.0%
  • Yes - briefly

    Votes: 20 44.4%
  • No

    Votes: 16 35.6%

  • Total voters
    45

Snowdrop

Rebel without a biscuit
Messages
2,933
For the reading public PACE would be rather boring and it requires a technical response.
Gaining the viewers attention and a positive response requires a narrative approach. People want to be told a story something that is more memorable.

Edit to add: during the millions missing project it was suggested that framing ME as a social injustice issue would have the most impact. (something along those lines)
 

user9876

Senior Member
Messages
4,556
I think an article with a personal story about how difficult it is to deal with ME in terms of the types of symptoms and limitations that it has on your life would be good. Then moving into what treatments and help is offered and how it doesn't help and the disappointments that come when it is over sold or the harm that GET has caused to yourself or fellow patients. I would follow that with hope for the future mentioning things like the Ritixumab trial and Ron Davis's work and the NIH starting to take ME seriously but saying that research is still massively underfunded,
 

BurnA

Senior Member
Messages
2,087
For the reading public PACE would be rather boring and it requires a technical response.
Gaining the viewers attention and a positive response requires a narrative approach. People want to be told a story something that is more memorable.

I guess it depends what you call memorable.!

For me a story about professors from the top UK universties performing a study so flawed that one academic described its results as being "doomed from the start"would be memorable.

Also how the same professors decided to declare patients recovered even if their condition deteriorated would be memorable.

A lot more memorable than "research into a disease I know nothing about is beginning to show signs of progress although nobody is quite sure"
 

JamBob

Senior Member
Messages
191
I don't think there is anything bitter or nagative about pointing out the truth.

Were David Tuller, Rebecca Goldin and Maureen Hansen bitter and negative ?


Respected scientists and science journalists have more legitimacy with other scientists when pointing out the flaws in academic research. Having independent scientists, doctors and academics critique PACE is more effective.

The psych lobby have already constructed patients in the media as a bunch of vexatious, harassing complainers who are unwilling to accept that our disease has a psychological component. If you read the comments on those kind of articles, a lot of medics/scientists are happy to go along with that narrative - that we protest too much about psychiatry and can't accept the psychological nature of our disease. If the main thrust of our argument is to complain about PACE, then we are just playing to their tune.

That's why I think we should redirect the narrative to the positive story of new research and promising developments that need funding.
 

BurnA

Senior Member
Messages
2,087
My opinion seems to be at odds with a lot of people here but anyway....

I think an article with a personal story about how difficult it is to deal with ME in terms of the types of symptoms and limitations that it has on your life would be good. Then moving into what treatments and help is offered and how it doesn't help and the disappointments that come when it is over sold or the harm that GET has caused to yourself or fellow patients. I would follow that with hope for the future mentioning things like the Ritixumab trial and Ron Davis's work and the NIH starting to take ME seriously but saying that research is still massively underfunded,

Reminds me of a lot of articles I've read recently. I only remember them because I have ME and I made a point of reading them.

That's why I think we should redirect the narrative to the positive story of new research and promising developments that need funding.

The same story for the past 20 years in other words ?

Did you read the Newsweek article - it could have been written yesterday so little has changed.

There is nothing wrong with any of these suggestions but opportunity only comes along once every so often - I would make the most of it.
 
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JamBob

Senior Member
Messages
191
For the past 20 years - there was no story. There wasn't much decent research going on and we didn't have any big name scientists interested. Now we have some of the top names in science working on our disease.
 

Snowdrop

Rebel without a biscuit
Messages
2,933
For me a story about professors from the top UK universties performing a study so flawed that one academic described its results as being "doomed from the start"would be memorable.

I don't disagree. But I was talking about readership in general. And I think a consideration might be where something is published. I am most definitely no expert on UK media but an example might be PACE in the guardian yes; in the Daily Mail not so much. I could be incorrect here.

If I was doing a piece on PACE then I would frame it in a larger context of bad science and what that means when people can no longer trust scientific findings. Apologies if this has been said already.
 

TiredSam

The wise nematode hibernates
Messages
2,677
Location
Germany
Haven't we all loved it recently on the rare occasions when an article about ME has appeared that just sticks to the biomedical issues and doesn't mention the psych stuff at all? Always makes me feel "At last, just how it should be".

Why not make this just such an article?

As a PWME I am of course furious about PACE and want the world to know it, justice to be done and to see them get their comeupance, but I'm leaning towards @JamBob's view here. There should be articles about the PACE scandal for the general public, but why does the PACE issue have to cloud articles about ME every time, or be seen as a necessary ingredient of one?

It will become easier to take down PACE as the biomedical evidence gathers and is disseminated, and as the public perception of ME as a biomedical illness becomes accepted. PACE can wait, others are doing a splendid job of taking it down at the moment and will continue to do so, maybe there'll be more articles soon when the FOI decision is given. I'd love to see an article just about ME. I'd also love to see an article just about PACE. But I think with only 700 words it should be one or the other.
 

BurnA

Senior Member
Messages
2,087
Haven't we all loved it recently on the rare occasions when an article about ME has appeared that just sticks to the biomedical issues and doesn't mention the psych stuff at all?

We have loved it, but is the story for us ?
Didnt we all love the takedowns of the PACE trial too?

but why does the PACE issue have to cloud articles about ME every time, or be seen as a necessary ingredient of one?

It doesn't have to cloud, but like it or not the BPS and PACE are very important factors in our disease. Take them away and we mightn't be in the mess we are in now.
Underfunding, neglect and poor treatment by doctors can all be argued to have their roots in the BPS involvement.

The story needs to be memorable and ask questions, for it to have impact. Without impact, it doesn't really matter what any news story says.
 

Esther12

Senior Member
Messages
13,774
It will become easier to take down PACE as the biomedical evidence gathers and is disseminated, and as the public perception of ME as a biomedical illness becomes accepted.

But the take-down of PACE is already much stronger than any of the biomedical research around.

Lots of patients are still making real sacrifices in order to engage with CBT and GET because they have been misled about the evidence. That's a serious problem now, and we can show that, now. While people here will have read plenty of criticism of PACE, there has not been any coverage of this ever in the mainstream UK media, and lots of people being diagnosed with CFS will not have had any hint that there is a problem with the information they are being given about CBT/GET. Hoping that some biomedical research leads to a real breaktheough some time in the next decade is all well and good, but to me it seems like more of a long-shot that pointing out the clear problems with the way the results from PACE have been misrepresented.
 

slysaint

Senior Member
Messages
2,125
I think if it were me I would set the piece up like the video 'Voices from the shadows' ;

it starts with :
'If we become seriously ill, we all expect to be treated with compassion and helped to regain our health,we don't expect to be disbelieved, blamed for being ill, or dismissed by the medical profession..."

, and include that ME has many similarities with MS and more sufferers and yet is virtually ignored/dismissed by the medical community;

the NHS insists on calling it Chronic Fatigue and ignore the plethora of other symptoms(a lot of people don't realise this);(the late Jodi Bassett puts this very well on the Hummingbird site);

and the only treatment on offer by the NHS are anti-depressants and CBT; also that very little consideration, if any, is given when prescribing treatment for any additional ailment, often making the sufferers condition worse (eg. intolerance /over sensitivity to a lot of drugs).
good luck with whatever you come up with.:thumbsup:
 

Invisible Woman

Senior Member
Messages
1,267
My tuppence worth:

While I'd love a good takedown of PACE (who wouldn't) this is an opportunity to talk about ME. We all know how much input/control the psychobabblers have with the media. If you bring PACE into any article there is a good chance they will seek the right to reply. Then they get the last word. Again. With the public innocent enough to fall for their BS. Again.

My vote: the severity of the condition, current state of play regards treatment and you could just mention CBT & GET here rather than PACE, exciting new developments. We need funding 'cause one day this could be you or one of yours.

Whatever you choose to write, thank you for doing it. I look forward to reading it
 

mfairma

Senior Member
Messages
205
I seem to be in the minority here in feeling that the best approach is to be direct, to focus on the overarching issues, and to try to boil things down enough to give an explanation of the whats and whys. In that respect, I sketched out how I would approach it, if it were me. The essence is a brief explanation of why this disease isn't what they think and the proof that there is something real and devastating here. I only really got to some of the former in what I wrote. I realize that the audience to be addressed matters and that this may be too high level or wonky, but I think regardless that selling people on the disease means giving them a way to understand what they may have heard. To me, focusing on just the positive or getting wrapped too deeply into discussions of PACE miss that.

"If you had a hand in condemning to the margins of medicine a disease more debilitating than MS, congestive heart failure, and end-stage renal disease, so that generations of terribly ill patients not only received no competent medical care, but were belittled publicly, ostracized by family and friends, and left financially broken, would you, or could you, admit that you were wrong?

The cardinal symptom of Myalgic Encephalomyelitis (ME) is post-exertional malaise (PEM), a severe worsening of symptoms following physical or mental exertion that can last for days and, for the sickest patients, even weeks. Although the main symptoms of the disease include severe cognitive impairment, unrefreshing sleep, headaches and muscle pain, dizziness, and new-found sensitivities to light, sound, and touch, what distinguishes the disease is patients’ abnormal response to exertion. For patients with ME, exertion triggers a profound relapse (which patients often refer to as a crash) that can leave even the more mildly ill bedridden or housebound for days at a time.

This symptom has long been considered the hallmark of the disease by patients and experts. Yet, thirty years ago, officials in the U.S. National Institute of Health and a group of psychiatrists here in Britain ignored that hallmark and radically redefined what it meant to have the disease. They did this by renaming the disease Chronic Fatigue Syndrome and by establishing the first in a series of ever more broad case definitions that made two crucial changes. First, by downplaying PEM and other disease symptoms, the new definitions effectively rebranded the disease as synonymous with chronic fatigue. Second, a few of these new definitions allowed patients with primary psychiatric illness to be diagnosed and studied in research as CFS patients, even though many psychiatric disorders present with fatigue, a change that muddied future attempts to study the cause of the newly defined disease. While the change in how the disease was defined effectively obscured ME in a broad umbrella of fatiguing illness, guaranteeing that research would find little evidence consistent with the ME that patients reported, the inclusion of primary psychiatric illness meant that future studies would show links to psychiatric disorders — of course, because those disorders were allowed into the studies!

Fortunately for patients, the pendulum is now swinging decisively back. In 2015, the U.S. Institute of Medicine issued a report that strongly affirmed not only that post-exertional malaise, rather than chronic fatigue, is the hallmark of ME, but also that the definitions established for Chronic Fatigue Syndrome were not reliable and had led to the stagnation of research for decades. Further, the report specifically recommended the retiring of the loosest of these definitions, which formed the basis for much of the research here in Britain suggesting that ME is a psychiatric disorder treatable through exercise and talk therapy."
 

Solstice

Senior Member
Messages
641
But the take-down of PACE is already much stronger than any of the biomedical research around.

Lots of patients are still making real sacrifices in order to engage with CBT and GET because they have been misled about the evidence. That's a serious problem now, and we can show that, now. While people here will have read plenty of criticism of PACE, there has not been any coverage of this ever in the mainstream UK media, and lots of people being diagnosed with CFS will not have had any hint that there is a problem with the information they are being given about CBT/GET. Hoping that some biomedical research leads to a real breaktheough some time in the next decade is all well and good, but to me it seems like more of a long-shot that pointing out the clear problems with the way the results from PACE have been misrepresented.

There's more good being done by just pointing them to proper research I think. We all want PACE to be brought down and CBT and GET to stop being given to patients. But the only way to stop that is to find a proper cure. The only way to do that is through solid biomedical research. And the only way to do that is get it funded. For that we have to get the story out about people like Davis, Lipkin, Naviaux, Fluge, Mella and others who are doing good work.

Once we have a biomarker, a cure etc. we can give all those people that deliberately pushed bad treatments on us their comeuppance. We can concisively and decisively blow them out the water. We can expose them for the frauds they are. That day is coming ever closer. But untill that we should focus on getting that funding, on getting word out about biomedical research being done and about how woefully underfunded it is. Not give them a stage and a chance to push us in the corner again.

My strategy would be:

1.) get the word out about good biomedical research being done at every chance we get. In articles, in blogs in whatever means possible

2.) react calmly and clearly if psychobabble is being pushed in the mainstream media again. Having a number of good articles about the biomedical research being done, would also give us something to link to people in the response-columns of those articles.

3.) when the biomedical research has yielded results, use it to break down psychobabble world round.

Exposing White et. co. is gonna do more harm than good at this point I think. It gives them a chance to rebuttal and bring controversy to biomedical research mentioned in the article. Besides that it won't stop them. Won't even slow them down one bit I reckon.

My 2 cents.
 

Invisible Woman

Senior Member
Messages
1,267
Something that just occurred to me - & probably occurred to you guys ages ago :-

I think any mention of PACE - exactly what is said and how it is said - needs to be very carefully thought through at the moment, given we are still waiting to hear the tribunal outcome.

Because of the tribunal restrictions even a lawyer (Valerie Elliott Smith) wasn't entirely sure whether she was breaking the restrictions or not. As we don't know what was said during the tribunal and the restrictions were unclear, it would be easy to start accusing people of breaking them.

I know this should be nothing to do with the tribunal, but after nearly 20 years of dealing with the politics of this condition I know that what you say can and will be used against you. Even if you were talking about something else.
 

Esther12

Senior Member
Messages
13,774
But the only way to stop that is to find a proper cure.

I don't think that's true. The work underpinning PACE can be shown to be shoddy without needing any biological findings at all. And if we look back at 'pro-patient' articles over the decades there's already lots of stuff that includes a sympathetic portrayal of a personal story and some references to biological research that may or may not (usually not) lead to anything. I think that these stories just leave people thinking 'hard for the patients, but sounds like things are going okay with the science'. I don't see how that benefits us and think that we need something that leaves people thinking 'sounds like things have gone badly wrong with the science, and we need a political intervention to improve things'.

Over the next few years we're going to have results from SMILE, GETSET, MAGENTA, White's research on pain perception... do we really think that at this point we can just turn a blind idea to the poorly done research which is being used to harm patients, and leave it to fade away on its own?

Finding a cure would obviously solve a lot of problems, but there's no reliable path to a cure... not for a good few decades anyway, and for some people probably ever. Maybe we'll get lucky, but relying on that seems a poor political strategy for dealing with the problems around CFS.

Exposing White et. co. is gonna do more harm than good at this point I think. It gives them a chance to rebuttal and bring controversy to biomedical research mentioned in the article. Besides that it won't stop them. Won't even slow them down one bit I reckon.

We want to engage them in discussion and debate... the more we do, the worse they look and the more evidence we gather for our own arguments. Pointing out the problems with their work will do much more to slow them down than a good news story about some biological finding or other, most of which they'd be able to fit in to a biopsychosocial model anyway.
 
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Snowdrop

Rebel without a biscuit
Messages
2,933
We want to engage them in discussion and debate... the more we do, the worse they look and the more evidence we gather for our own arguments. Pointing out the problems with their work will do much more to slow them down than a good news story about some biological finding or other, most of which they'd be able to fit in to a biopsychosocial model anyway.

You would expect it to work that way. But I don't think that it does. You're talking about rational debate. The BPS crowd have shown that they have owned this narrative for some time and they are willing to stoop low and spin wildly all while expecting they will be believed because they are authorities and experts.
We have credibility issues thanks to BPS. Writing about scientists taking the biology seriously and making progress in understanding will change the narrative more in my opinion than engaging with PACE. They always respond--with non-sequiturs--but all the same they have the voice of authority.
 

JamBob

Senior Member
Messages
191
We have credibility issues thanks to BPS. Writing about scientists taking the biology seriously and making progress in understanding will change the narrative more in my opinion than engaging with PACE. They always respond--with non-sequiturs--but all the same they have the voice of authority.


Agreed. We need to make it so that the go-to-guys for any media quotes about our disease are Edwards, Davis, Lipkin, Klimas, Naviaux, Fluge, Mella - not White, Wesseley and Chalder.
 

BurnA

Senior Member
Messages
2,087
Agreed. We need to make it so that the go-to-guys for any media quotes about our disease are Edwards, Davis, Lipkin, Klimas, Naviaux, Fluge, Mella - not White, Wesseley and Chalder.

Unfortunately the SMC controls just about all scientific press releases in the UK.

Journalists have no reason not to listen to them unless we can give them a reason.

Maybe a reason is that they are puppets of Wessely and the BPS. How can we demonstrate that ?
 

Esther12

Senior Member
Messages
13,774
Agreed. We need to make it so that the go-to-guys for any media quotes about our disease are Edwards, Davis, Lipkin, Klimas, Naviaux, Fluge, Mella - not White, Wesseley and Chalder.

I don't think that that Science Media Centre will get on board with that until they're forced to. And in the UK, they matter.

You would expect it to work that way. But I don't think that it does. You're talking about rational debate. The BPS crowd have shown that they have owned this narrative for some time and they are willing to stoop low and spin wildly all while expecting they will be believed because they are authorities and experts.
We have credibility issues thanks to BPS. Writing about scientists taking the biology seriously and making progress in understanding will change the narrative more in my opinion than engaging with PACE. They always respond--with non-sequiturs--but all the same they have the voice of authority.

Where have you seen the PACE researchers do a good job of spinning against an article where people have been given an opportunity to detail the important problems with PACE? To me it seems like some people are talking as if there's been lots of criticism of PACE in the mainstream media that has been rebutted by cunning psychiatrists... I've not seen this. Wessely and the PACE researchers are great at spinning things when they face no criticism... that's one of the reasons why it's so important to take the time to present our important and valid criticism of their work.

We do now have a number of authority figures willing to speak out about the problems with PACE. I think that we're now in a very different position, in terms of our ability to present clear and important criticisms about PACE and show that other academics are concerned, than we were five years ago.