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Artesunate - Cheney dosage and benefits

Discussion in 'Antivirals, Antibiotics and Immune Modulators' started by Daisymay, Oct 8, 2009.

  1. ukxmrv

    ukxmrv Senior Member

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    I'm stable on a dose of 50mg 2 or 3 times a week now. It should be 3x but I developed hormonal problems (which I'm really not sure have anything to do with Artesunate but I am taking it easy on the drug just in case).

    I'm not getting any obvious "die off" reaction to the Artusunate in the last 3 /4 weeks.

    My husband (who doesn't know about this new drug) asked if I had been taking anything extra or new. He noticed that my recovery time from exercise or physical overexertion is now slightly better in the last 3 weeks. Artesunate is the only new thing I am taking.

    I haven't tried the wormwood swish as yet. Earlier use of wormwood had no noticable good effects on my health and I had severe sleep disturbances/vivid dreams from it earlier. May give it a go at some point again.
     
  2. maryb

    maryb iherb code TAK122

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    Thanks Chris I did mention side effects or problems with liver toxicity with the doc but she poo pooed it. No problems she said. I will however take on board what you said and will probaly start lower and not every day, I trust you guys more than any doc!! Thanks again
     
  3. slayadragon

    slayadragon Senior Member

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    twitpic.com/photos/SlayaDragon
    I've just started taking arteminisin (250 mg) and have been getting a lot of feelings of inflammation (especially brain inflammation) and feverish feelings (which I associate with die-off).

    I would logically think these were due to the arteminisin, except I can't find that anyone else has reported them as a result of either arteminisin or artesunate.

    It certainly could be something else. I will stop the arteminisin, but does anyone have any thoughts?

    Thanks, Lisa
     
  4. spacee

    spacee

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    Thanks All

    I have purchased this and looking forward to trying it after being tested for XMRV late
    August or early Sept. I was doing pretty well on the targeted transfer factors from Chishom Bio Labs.
    But my ana went up to 1280, I think. They use rx antimalarials for lupus and sjogrens...
    so I thought this otc antimalarial would be worth trying.

    BTW, my ana did go down to 320 and my sed rate back to normal on Doxy and flagel which
    was great but I didn't feel any better.
     
  5. spacee

    spacee

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    Hi Lisa...I have tried the Arteminsin. I don't remember feeling inflammation but I did feel more yuky. Didn't like it.
     
  6. Frickly

    Frickly Senior Member

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    I just started artecin 1x per day 500mg, three days ago. I was just diagnosed with lyme so looking into other alternatives for treatment. I am getting a terrible herx reaction. I feel horrible, inflammation in joints, muscle fatigue, fever, sweating, swollen lymph nodes and horrible pain in the back of my neck. Obviously, I need to down the dosage. Not sure the best way to start. Dump it out of the capsules and split it up? Take it every other day? Three times per week? I don't know but any help would be appreciated. I will be seeing a lyme doc on august 10th but trying to figure this thing out on my own until then.

    Forgot to mention I am taking Thorne artecin (chinese wormwood) 500mg 1x per day.
     
  7. Frank

    Frank Senior Member

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    I'm starting on artesunate 50mg 1/day for the next 3 months (following de meirleirs protocol)
     
  8. Cloud

    Cloud Guest

    Thanks for this post Frank. Do you know of a link to Dr Kenny's protocol? Is he using the Artesunate for xmrv?


    Thanks.....
     
  9. Frank

    Frank Senior Member

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    Not for XMRV in me, because i'm still waiting for the AB test. I do have low NK, clostridium and E.coli, basically gut dysbiosis.
    So he probably uses it for the gut buggers.

    My protocol consists of:
    -Tiberal
    -Flagyl/ metronidazole
    -VSL-3
    -Creon 150 = pancreatic enzymes
    -Hydroxycobalamine IM
    -Lipoceutical Vit. C
    -Artusenate

    Other patients have different protocols.
     
  10. Cloud

    Cloud Guest

    Thanks Frank. Yea, it would make more sense that he would be focused on Tx for Dysbiosis. I did the H2S test last trip to Tahoe....yet to get results.
     
  11. judderwocky

    judderwocky Senior Member

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    http://apps.who.int/prequal/info_ap...clinical_Overview_Artemisinin-Derivatives.pdf


    Toxicity information.

    Sections 4.1, 4.6 are particularly useful.

    Personally I am little bit skiddish of taking it for more than a few days... but it seems to kill most parasites relatively quickly..... so i'm talking myself into taking it for just a few to get rid of intestinal parasites.... but im using the herbal extract, and just to kill large parasites... like worms... which supposedly die in the first 16 hours. i know they say it clears malaria around 3 days, but they keep them on longer to prevent recurrence...

    Also, you should know that if you are taking N-A-C it inhibits the method of action.... its not clear exactly how long or if its still always effective... There are maybe two studies on this i found (L-Nac, and NAC) but they aren't included in the above document.... i believe it also reduces efficacy against malaria (there questions, because NAC was being used to treat cerebral symptoms of malaria, and they also found out that in addition to delaying the action of the artemesiinin derivatives, it also didn't do much to protect the brain)

    neural toxicity of the derivatives seems to be specific to areas of the brain stem...
     
  12. Chris

    Chris Senior Member

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    Artemisinins

    Hi--many thanks, Judderwocky, for that link--very informative, and overall in agreement with the later report on toxicity by Efferth posted in the Research library.
    Just a quick comment: I don't understand why some are taking artemisinin or artecin, since all reports seem to show that artesunate is both more effective and less toxic, and in addition we have reports of the dose that Cheney is using (I think now 3 x 50 mg per week) and now de Meirleir--though I am surprised that he recommends 50 mg per day for 3 months--I guess with close monitoring.

    I did seem to develop some neuro problems after using artesunate for about 6 months at more or less the Cheney dosage, though as reported that may have been due to taking a bit of olive leaf too. The kind of thing reported at high doses--cardiological, gut plus vestibular and motor problems (balance, etc.) seem to fit the problems I developed earlier this year, so I am still wary, and now taking only Stem-Kine and a mix of AHCC (expensive!) and AOR Immune Support (similar, it seems, and cheaper). I seem to be doing OK so far.
    Best, Chris
     
  13. R1234

    R1234

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    Chris:
    I have been following your posts on artesunate. I'm thinking of starting it myself.

    You mentioned some new neuro issues after the therapy. Overall though would you say you've improved, slid back, or no change in your overall situation as a result of the Artesunate therapy?

    Also what was your pre-artesunate and current baseline i.e. bedridden/wheelchair, severely fatigued, occasional/cycling fatigue, etc....

    Any insight would be really great! Thanks.
     
  14. soulfeast

    soulfeast Senior Member

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    artimisinin messes with me badly.. brain inflammation... lyme or babesia? it hits both.

     
  15. Chris

    Chris Senior Member

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    Artesunate now

    Hi, R1234; sorry, I have been neglecting this thread for a while, but I will try to answer your questions. My condition when I started artemisinin was not too good--I had been put on a heavy dose of Cozaar by a cardio, who tried to control my periodic very high blood pressure spikes that way, and after some months I really went down hill. Never bedridden, but I quit driving, could not walk more than about 8-10 mins, felt pretty lousy, and found it hard to do any serious reading or thinking (I am a retired prof, so this hits me hard). I used artemisinin at first because it was available in Canada; I was responding to news from Cheney, and was particularly interested in his notes on how it was helping his patients with diastolic dysfunction, since that was part of my syndrome.

    Then I discovered his source for Artesunate, and risked ordering it from the US--it came through safely. I seemed to be improving slowly but noticeably the first few months, following his 3 times a week schedule, until about Jan of this year, when I had a crash--nasty gut sensations, and vicious BP spikes and pain, and feeling of more than usual instability walking and distance more limited than before--went to Emergency a couple of times, but of course they found nothing, though were sympathetic, and did confirm the very high BP readings. But ECG showed nothing, and there was clearly no heart attack. I had an echo, which showed more or less normal functioning, though the diameter of my left ventricle had diminished since the last echo; the E/A ratio, one sign of diastolic function, was slightly improved over the previous echo.

    So overall I think Artesunate did improve my status, though not in a major way; but I felt better and was able to be more active --until the crash. I looked again at the research on side effects, and figured that maybe it had killed enough good bugs in my gut to allow the bad ones to thrive, and that maybe there had been some cumulative damage to the brain stem that caused the increase in instability in walking and other symptoms that I interpreted as autonomic nervous or CNS symptoms, some of which seemed to correlate with some of the symptoms that had been recorded for long term or intensive use of Artesunate in animals; most of the human experience has been short term.

    So I decided to quit at least for the time being. In its place I have been trying Stem-Kine and AOR's Immune Support, with the aim of both general cleaning up and repair and immune modulation--I assumed that Immune Support would have some of the same effects on NK functionality as AHCC, since the basic ingredients seemed so similar ( the same stuff is also in Stem-Kine). I have now got some AHCC, and am trying that. I would say that after 10 weeks or so on this new regime I am back to more or less where I was at my best on Artesunate, though I am now having a minor crash--the result of feeling well enough to do too much --you know how it goes. I did experience noticeably more stability in walking--better than for a longish time. This last mini crash--almost over in two days--suggests to me that maybe slightly increased exercise (my morning walk got up to a pretty fast 16 mins or so) and general activity reactivated my viruses (whatever they may be--have not had any testing!), and so I took a couple of Artesunate capsules again. I am really unsure whether this is wise or not--the stuff has proven antiviral activity, but I do not know if taking it from time to time will merely help the things to adapt, or will keep them in check a bit. I wish I knew more!

    I can say that there was no evidence in Jan-Feb of any liver damage--my enzymes were tested when I went to Emerg, and it is liver damage that Cheney appears to fear, though he has also said somewhere that at his earlier dose of 2 x 50 mg per week no monitoring was probably necessary.

    At the moment I am following his advice on using alkaline water as one way to reset the redox point, part of what he think Artesunate is doing, and I am using the SK and mushroom extracts as immune modulators, hoping that they will raise my NK and general immune function enough to begin to deal with viruses. I think I will keep following that routine and give it some more time--and try to slow my desire to do as much as I can as I begin to feel better and capable of more activity. But apart from this most recent crash the last weeks have been fairly good ones- I am still very limited, but have been able to do enough to mostly enjoy life in a modest way.

    One last word. As I mentioned before, I was taking a bit of olive leaf as well as the Artesunate before my Jan-Feb crash, and I just don't know how much if any this contributed to what happened. I may try Artesunate again on a regular basis, perhaps 2 a week, if anyone else reports good results. Along with the SK and AHHC / Immune Support stuff.

    I am sorry that this gets a bit long winded, and remains unsure and tentative--I just don't know exactly what did what to cause the changes in my symptoms. But I am a bit wary of using Artesunate long term as a result of my experience, though I also think it does have some pretty powerful action against viruses and other bugs. Feel free to PM if you wish, though I am not sure I can really tell you much more. Best, Chris
     
  16. R1234

    R1234

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    Thanks Chris for the update. Makes me not want to take Artesunate regularly long term. I'm thinking maybe 5 straight days of the stuff once a month to 'clean things out' mixed in with a more complete herbal protocol.

    I have dabbled in the past with anti-viral and bacteriocidal herbs sporadically, but I will be starting soon on a prolonged protocol. I particularly like artemisia annua tincture, oil of oregano, andrographis, cat's claw, neem, triphala, pau d'arco and maybe a couple more I'm forgetting - need to look through my cupboard to see what's there. I believe a scheduled rotation of herbal compounds (including Artesunate) will create a very broad spectrum antibiotic effect against active as well as deeply buried/dormant infections.
     
  17. pine108kell

    pine108kell Senior Member

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    Considering Dr. Cheney considers this one of his most successful treatments why is there such a disjunct with what people are reporting here? This is not a criticism of Cheney--it just is very frustrating and hard to understand.
     
  18. spacee

    spacee

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    A stab at the disjunct, we are infected in various organs to a varying degree in each person. That is not a professional opinion...just a guess.

    I took one of the Hepaunate from Hepalin and for about 24-36 hours, it felt like a war was going on in my neck lymph glands. This is a possible
    reaction because of my crazy high EBV numbers. Since having such a strong reaction, I am opting to take it once a week until the 'war' is
    more tolerable. Then upping to twice a week. BUT since I have family coming in during Oct, Nov and Dec. My taking it will reflect how
    much herx I can take. And I do believe the 'herx' is a good thing in my case.

    I have taken a probiotic regularly for years. So far no IBS. Hoping that continues!
     
  19. miranda

    miranda

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    Hello,

    New to the forum.

    Thanks to all who posted and for the research articles.

    I started Artesunate Aug 9th and have been pulsing it ever since. I concur with the high cytokine inflammation, "messes with my brain" - wild dreams, heightened sleep difficulty, increased cognitive difficulties, some wired but tired - as tonight.

    Also, several hours after ingestion I get an upset stomach and am wiped out on pulse days and usually the day after. Weekends are good. [pulse T, Th, Sun] Initially headaches, but not as severe as during the first several months with Valcyte. I also have symptoms similar to my Enterovirus infections - mild coughs, stuffy nose (at least not infections), and the stomach pains previously mentioned.

    I am pulsing ART to enhance and/or hit on different markers than Valcyte. Positively speaking, I am calmer.

    Blood monitoring thus far: A+.

    I'd appreciate updates from those using ART.
     
  20. spacee

    spacee

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    Your reaction to Art

    Seems to be what I experience too. Odd that Cheney's patients feel better when they
    take it and worse on days off (weekend).

    I am through the 5 days straight period and now taking it just twice a week. Monday
    and Thurs. Also, I cut my dose to 1/2 of capsules. Open it and put under my tongue.
    Kinda bitter but trying to get it into my bloodstream by SL route.

    This is not an easy fix!
     

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