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Arginine and Viruses

Discussion in 'Antivirals, Antibiotics and Immune Modulators' started by Lotus97, Apr 20, 2013.

  1. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    What's the deal with arginine and viruses? I've heard that it's not good to take arginine (and precursors citrulline and ornithine) if you have viruses, but I don't know why. Part of the reason I'm starting this thread is because I have Lyme and I want to know if people with Lyme (and accompanying coinfections) also need to avoid arginine.
  2. lnester7

    lnester7 Seven

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    I read also the same but related to Herpes viruses. Like it helps them replicate or something like that?!?!?
  3. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    There were a lot of customer reviews on iHerb for lysine where people said it helped them with their herpes. I don't know the details, but there's also something about a lysine/arginine balance.
  4. Creekee

    Creekee Senior Member

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    My doctor believes arginine is used by the critters to create biofilm. Along with magnesium, calcium and maybe some others.
  5. jeffrez

    jeffrez Senior Member

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    Yeah, you should avoid arginine if you have viral load. Conventional wisdom is to take C and lysine.
  6. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    Do people with Lyme have viral loads? I stopped taking arginine, ornithine, and citrulline and I'm not sure I feel any better. I want to play it safe, but I'm kind of confused as to what's considered a virus and what's an infection or coinfection or viral infection.
  7. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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  8. jeffrez

    jeffrez Senior Member

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    Lyme's a bacteria - or more correctly, I guess, a spirochete. You might want to check with a Lyme expert to be sure, but I don't think it's stimulated by arginine. Probably a non-issue, unless of course you *also* had viruses and the arginine was making those worse, possibly weakening your immunity.
  9. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

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    there is conflicting info out there saying arginine is good for the immune system which u would think would help us fight herpes virus?? but arginine supposedly feeds herpes viruses and lysine is used as it competes with arginine and can reduce arginine available to herpes viruses. But this is just what i have read and i have only tried lysine which didnt do anything for me but it has helped others with herpes 1.
  10. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    I've heard some Lyme doctors say not to take arginine, but I'm not sure why or if it's necessary. I partially asked because of coinfections, but it seems I might of misread the Wikipedia entry on coinfections. It does mention viruses in the wiki, but it seems the Lyme coinfection Bartonella is bacterial and Babesia is protozoan. There are some Lyme coinfections that are viral though:
    http://www.niaid.nih.gov/topics/lymedisease/research/pages/co-infection.aspx
  11. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    I was mainly taking arginine, citrulline, and ornithine because they were supposed to be good for dealing with ammonia and since I eat at least 100 grams of protein a day I probably have an ammonia problem. Right now I'm taking carnitine, AKG, lysine, and yucca for ammonia.

    Actually, I initially bought them because they're supposed to increase human growth hormone, but I'm a little skeptical now of that claim. I'd like to see more research on that subject.

    I'm not sure if the nitric oxide from arginine/citrulline/ornithine is a good thing or a bad thing. The information on that is confusing. For relatively healthy people, increasing NO is usually recommended. It seems Dr. Pall says too much NO is bad for CFS/ME/MCS/Fibromyalgia
    http://chronicfatigue.about.com/od/treatmentprotocols/a/Pall_Protocol.htm
  12. jeffrez

    jeffrez Senior Member

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    I don't think there's much scientific doubt that arginine increases growth hormone secretion. Not sure of the doses needed to get any therapeutic increase, though - a few grams, at least, probably. If you want GH increase without the arginine problem, you might want to try glutamine.
  13. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

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    i think arginine has to be given IV to stimulate GH.
  14. jeffrez

    jeffrez Senior Member

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    Growth Horm IGF Res. 2005 Apr;15(2):136-9. Epub 2005 Jan 26.
    Growth hormone responses to varying doses of oral arginine.

    Collier SR, Casey DP, Kanaley JA.
    Source

    Department of Exercise Science, Syracuse University, 820 Comstock Avenue, Room 201, Syracuse, NY 13244, USA.
    Abstract

    Intravenous (IV) arginine invokes an increase in growth hormone (GH) concentrations, however, little is known about the impact of oral arginine ingestion on the GH response.
    OBJECTIVE:

    The purpose of this study was to determine the dose of oral arginine that elicits an optimal GH response and to determine the time course of the response.
    DESIGN:

    Eight healthy males (18-33 years - 24.8+/-1.2 years) were studied on 4 separate occasions. Following an overnight fast at 0700 h, a catheter was placed in a forearm vein. Blood samples were taken every 10 min for 5 h. Thirty minutes after sampling was initiated, the subject ingested a dose of arginine (5, 9 or 13 g) or placebo (randomly assigned).
    RESULTS:

    Mean resting GH values for the placebo, 5, 9 and 13 g day were 0.76, 0.67, 2.0 and 0.79 microg/L (n=6), respectively. Integrated area under the curve was not different with 13 g (197.8+/-65.7 min microg/L), yet it increased with 5 and 9 g compared with the placebo (301.5+/-74.6, 524.28+/-82.9 and 186.04+/-47.8 min microg/L, respectively, P<0.05). Mean peak GH levels were 2.9+/-0.69, 3.9+/-0.85, 6.4+/-1.3 and 4.73+/-1.27 microg/L on each day for the placebo, 5, 9 and 13 g days.
    CONCLUSION:

    In conclusion, 5 and 9 g of oral arginine caused a significant GH response. A 13 g dose of arginine resulted in considerable gastrointestinal distress in most subjects without augmentation in the GH response. The rise in GH concentration started approximately 30 min after ingestion and peaked approximately 60 min post ingestion.
    heapsreal likes this.
  15. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    I've found doses higher than a couple grams of arginine too stimulating, but maybe some people would like the extra energy. Interestingly, Hip said arginine helped him with anxiety (not sure what doses though). It might have been arginine pyroglutamate specifically, but that kind also was too stimulating at higher doses. It definitely wouldn't be something I'd want to take too much of before bed which is when you're supposed to take HGH supplements (or before a workout). When I was able to work out, citrulline malate seemed to help, but part of that could have been from the malic acid. I forget if I took ornithine AKG and arginine pyroglutamate with it.
  16. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    The effects of arginine supplementation in promoting viral replication I believe only relate to herpes simplex virus, though even for herpes simplex, it seems that there is no simple answer as to whether arginine does or does not boost viral replication. A very good article entitled "Should Herpes Patients Avoid Arginine?" — which I have copied and quoted below — summarizes the evidence for and against arginine boosting herpes replication.

    The article basically says that arginine can boost herpes simplex virus replication, but in order to do so, it requires that the arginine is methylated. If it is not sufficiently methylated, then arginine may in fact inhibit herpes simplex virus replication.

    Thus I assume that if you are a good methylator, arginine may promote herpes simplex virus replication; whereas if you are a bad methylator, arginine may inhibit herpes simplex virus replication.

    I have found myself that high doses of arginine (10 grams or more) can sometimes cause a cold sore outbreak (cold sores being a herpes simplex virus eruption), but I find this is no big deal anyway.


    Note that in the case of enteroviruses, arginine has been shown to be antiviral:

    Oral L-arginine prevents murine coxsackievirus B3 myocarditis.

    This antiviral effect of arginine is probably due to its ability to promote nitric oxide, which is a potent antiviral/antibacterial.


    Last edited: Apr 18, 2014
    Lotus97 likes this.
  17. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    Stephen Buhner, author of Healing Lyme (and a new book devoted to Lyme disease coinfections bartonella and mycoplasma), recommends arginine for his bartonella protocol (unless you have cetain illnesses).
    http://buhnerhealinglyme.com/herbs/lyme-with-bartonella/
  18. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    He also has a response on the question of arginine feeding mycoplasma
    http://buhnerhealinglyme.com/uncategorized/okay-to-supplement-l-arginine-with-mycoplasma/

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