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Are vaccines the cause of ME/CFS?

Discussion in 'General ME/CFS Discussion' started by Seewell, Feb 8, 2013.

  1. golden

    golden Senior Member

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    It is not acceptable to me that thousands upon thousands of individuals are being severely disabled with also fatalities due to a Russian roulette of vaccinations .

    http://www.vernoncoleman.com/vaccines.htm

    This is an interesting letter which begins to unravel some of the myths - in my opinion.
     
  2. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    This Vernon Coleman seems to be the perfect read for those that have had a lobotomy.

    In this article he denies that AIDS exists.

    Can't you provide some more fact-based and non-quacky references?

    The vaccination debate is an interesting subject, but let's not include the writings of AIDS deniers in this discussion.
     
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  3. golden

    golden Senior Member

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    Dr Vernon Coleman has always been truthful with the facts in my opinion.

    No -one seems to discuss "The Quack In The Room" - when one attacks in this way.
     
  4. golden

    golden Senior Member

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    I will have to look closely at the information regarding hiv and aids.

    I have never heard of this debate before. It will take me weeks to dismantle A priori and then to view afresh new information.

    I see that people are questioning whether HIV causes AIDS . Dr Mercola questions this too.

    http://www.thedailybell.com/floatWindow.cfm?id=2960

    This leads to a label of "AIDS deniers ". On first reading - that doesn't seem to be what is being said though.
     
  5. Tristen

    Tristen Senior Member

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    No doubt vaccinations are the medical marvel of the last century and have prevented the spread of catastrophic diseases, and have so far, kept some of them suppressed....but this fact has little to do with the possibility of vaccines causing other health problems. Vaccines were the best we had and thank God for that discovery.....but it has gone too far.

    It's not an all or nothing issue. It's a need for some serious independent research into vaccine safety now. But that's not likely to happen as long as those responsible for drug regulation remain bought and paid for, and may be in the dark that the old "save the herd at the expense of a few" philosophy is rapidly proving very unwise and dangerous without prudent humane research and regulations.

    During all my time interacting with the communities (autism, gwi, etc) who do believe vaccines are at the core of our current neuroimmne disease epidemic, I have met very few real "anti-vaxers" (people fully against any use of vaccines). Most people just want to see some serious safety research, and some changes to the current unnecessary overuse of vaccines.

    Back on topic...Yes, I do believe it very possible that vaccinations may have caused neuroimmune trauma (due to adjuvants or undetected pathogens) that does not present as disease until a person encounters additional triggers later in life.
     
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  6. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    I think the difficultly here is that if governments and heath authorities publish data about adverse effects of vaccines, then less people will take them. And governments figure that the consequences of not taking vaccines will be worse that the adverse effects they sometimes produce, so unfortunately I don't think we are going to see an open debate about vaccine side effects anytime soon.
     
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  7. golden

    golden Senior Member

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    I don't know exactly when it happened. But Tristen, I am fully pro-natural health.

    The ingredients in the vaccines, i believe, are anti-health.

    I am relatively isolated and have not been on all of the forums you have - i think 'jabs' advocates an 'informed choice' - i fully agree with this. It is not up to the government to steal this from me.

    http://www.arnica.org.uk/

    I found this group of parents who are concerned about pro-natural health too.
     
  8. SilverbladeTE

    SilverbladeTE Senior Member

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    Somewhere near Glasgow, Scotland
    And polio is a waterborne disease...
    so, when we cleaned up ponds, made betetr sewage treatment plants, as the virus adapted to its host or killed off (removed from breeding) those susceptible...

    sorry I know that's a cold way to put it, but vaccines alone did NOT eradicate polio, because, have they eradicated Malaria form most of Europe and America? Um, *NO*. For no such vaccine exists, but public health works and civil engineering did get rid of it.
    and guess which of the two cripples and kills the most?


    again, vaccines are potentially great treatments, but they are not a "god being" to be exalted, and should be treated with al due cation of any phrma product, especially oen given to kids and that contain foreign genetic material.
     
  9. golden

    golden Senior Member

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    Must go to sleep now :(

    Just been looking at Dr Jayne Donegons website. Very interesting and she links to:

    http://www.whale.to/vaccines.html

    as containing many studies rarely seen.
     
  10. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    Water is a main source of enteroviruses such as poliovirus, but once a poliovirus outbreak begins, it then is transmitted by person-to-person contact, as poliovirus is highly contagious, and once on child has caught it, other children around them will pick it up very quickly. So one child contracting a poliovirus infection from a water source could rapidly be magnified into an outbreak involving hundreds of children, via person-to-person contagion.

    I would be interesting to find out where and when ponds, lakes and rivers were cleaned up, and better sewage plants set up, to see if this coincided with any reduction of poliovirus outbreaks.

    I wonder if tap water was also a common source of poliovirus contagion?

    Tap water chlorination began around 1910 – 1920, and of course chlorine deactivates enteroviruses. If tap water was a common source, you'd expect a decrease in polio after chlorination. Certainly swimming pool chlorination stopped the virus being spread from swimming.
     
  11. Ecoclimber

    Ecoclimber Senior Member

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    It might be a cause of a certain subset in ME/CFS patients.

    I was reading through your blog and I must admit, it is one of the most detailed symptomatic blogs on ME that I have read including symptoms usually not listed with ME such as tooth decay, neurological -memory, speaking, writing, winkling of the skin, vision etc. Many ME patients do have these additional symptoms. Most patients acquire this illness after a post viral infection or after an Influenza vaccination. As you know, this illness received its 'infamous' name after an outbreak at Incline Village and is associated with various 'hot spot' outbreaks throughout the world over the preceding decades. It is associated with a one or more pathogens as the trigger.

    I just recently ran across an article that pique my interest. Most researchers are now reconsidering it could be an neuroimmune or autoimmune disease or disorder. This article indicates that a pathogen H1N1 or an influenza vaccination is a cause of an autoimmune disease. It could be a subset of ME patients or it could lead to a dead end but I thought it would be worth exploring before posting a thread on it. It could be controversial.

    So I went looking and it was a fortuitous event that I just happened to read an NBC News Article from Reuters concerning children in young adults developing an irreversible sleep disorder from the adjuvant that was in the vaccine manufactured by GlaxoSmithKline...sounds like a law firm. :).
    Flu shot ingredient eyed for narcolepsy link

    Some Northern Europe countries used a particular flu vaccination against the H1N1 2009 strain called Pandemrix which triggered an irreversible sleep disorder in some children (1/16,000 vaccinations in Finland, a 5-13 fold increase risk).

    I considered this very interesting but I didn't know why a sleep disorder would be irreversible so I went hunting on PubMed and happened to come across research center that is doing research in this field. The information was astounding. The sleep disorder is called narcolepsy. I assumed it had to do with people who had sleep apnea, obesity or trouble sleeping because of snoring. It doesn't have anything to do with sleep issues per se. There is a psychiatric component to this disorder which I am not referencing but only the neurological disorder. The DSM-5 manual lists it as narcolepsy/hypocretin.

    I came across some research where individuals that have a certain genetic predisposition can acquire this autoimmune disease. It attacks the neuropeptide Hypocretin located in the Hypothalamus and wipes them out. Hypocretin controls the sleep/awake state and the circadian rhythms as well as the homeostasis of the entire human body!

    A mutated gene in the HLA(human leukocyte Antigen) is associated with MS. About 70% of the patients with multiple sclerosis have HLA-DR2 gene. Another pathogenic trigger H1N1 is associated with another autoimmune disorder located in the same region Over 90% of patients with narcolepsy-cataplexy carry HLA-DQB1*0602 mutated gene expression.

    Research had found that narcolepsy is an autoimmune disease that destroys the neuropeptide Hypocretin located in the Hypothalamus within the brain. Hypocretin and/or receptors OXi1 and Oxi2 control the entire body's asleep and awake state as well as circadian rhythms. Furthermore, it down regulates the HPA Axis, muscle... olfactory, inability to adjust to temperature extremes, severe insomnia, brain fog and memory issues, POTS, blood pressure volume, cardiovascular issues basically the human homeostasis...Occam's razor!

    It is caused by a gene mutation through an exposure to an influenza pathogen. This can be passed on genetically to other generations. Not every one that has this mutated gene develops this condition but 90% of the people who do have narcolepsy vs. controls have this gene mutation in the HLA ( Human Leukocyte Antigen) It is near the same location as a mutated gene expression for MS!

    What if the immune system targets this pathogen but also mistakes proteins in the brain that regulate sleep/awake cycles as a pathogen and take them out as well? Research has shown that this is what exactly occurs in narcoleptic patients?

    So what if the immune system was killing cells that produce hypocretin? Hypocretin (orexins) are molecules found only in the hypothalamus and had some weak resemblance with the gut hormone secretin. Only 10,000-20,000 cells in the entire human brain (out of many billions) secrete these specific hypocretin molecules.

    HLA antigens are molecules produced by the HLA genes and HLA molecules which are expressed on the surface of white blood cells to coordinate the immune response and DR and DQ are two different types of HLA molecules.

    We know that HLA genes are very important systems to keep the immune system in check. The HLA molecules are very particular in that different individuals generally carry different HLA "subtypes" (for example DR1, DR2, subtypes of HLA-DR; DQ1, DQB1*0602, subtypes of HLA-DQ). The fact HLA molecules are slightly different from one individual to another makes our immune system slightly different from each other.

    The immune system uses HLA to differentiate between “self” cells and foreign cells (and attacks those presented as foreign), and most autoimmune diseases are associated with variants of HLA!

    There is two ways to find this disease in a patient, CFS or by DNA Testing. So I talked to genetic researcher involved with this research. You can be tested for this. This researcher had no idea to look at the ME/CFS patient population! So I asked him to look at the research conducted by of CFS spinal fluid conducted by Natleson et al. here: http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0017287 and Smith et al. Lyme patients here: http://tinyurl.com/a4qtnxb on distinguishing ME and Lyme patients to determine if there was any absence of Hypocretin in the CFS of patients.

    Research has found that after following specific influenza flu infections, the immune system confuses a portion of the flu virus with hypocretin related proteins, destroying the 10-20,000 neurons in the brain that produce hypocretin.

    In recent studies, more than 90 percent of sleep disorder patients were shown to carry one such variant which is now considered an autoimmune disease.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excessive_Daytime_Sleepiness

    So you have disease produce by a viral pathogen that mimics many of the symptoms of ME/CFS patients. I don't know if it is something people haven't looked into for one reason or another but the only way they can determine if it is an autoimmune disease is whether hypocretin is missing in the CFS of patients thus the question on the proteins found in the PlosOne study in patients with ME/CFS. There is also one other way, by DNA genetic testing, that locates the mutated gene expression within patients.

    Vaccines and influenza H1N1 can cause this condition as mentioned before. Other threads on here about EDS and mercury amalgams are not noted for infectious hot spots in various parts of the world over the last few decades which gave rise to ME/CFS. Could be a subset but patients should be aware of it for diagnostic purposes?

    When the autoimmune system attacks the virus, it also attacks the hypocretin. I found out that it affects the HPA axis, gut issues, blood volume and pressure, it is genetically passed down. It is very similar to MS and Parkinson, sensitivity to smell, affects the heart cardiovascular system, dysautonomia, POTS.

    Orexins (hypocretins) are neuropeptides primarily localized in the hypothalamus and are implicated in the regulation of a variety of activities, including feeding behavior and energy balance. Orexins have also been found to be linked to idiopathic narcolepsy (excessive daytime sleepiness). Two homologous peptides, orexin-A (OXA) and orexin-B (OXB), are proteolytic cleavage products derived from a common precursor called prepro-orexin. Prepro-orexin is expressed in a specific population of neurons in and around the lateral hypothalamic area and is involved in the catecholaminergic and serotonergic feeding systems, playing a role in circadian feeding, sex differences, in feeding and spontaneous activity. Prepro-orexin mRNA level is up-regulated upon fasting, suggesting a physiological role for the peptides as mediators in the central feedback mechanism that regulates feeding behavior. Orexin expression is not obviously related to changes in body weight, insulin or leptin, but is stimulated under conditions of low plasma glucose in the absence of food. OXA and OXB are 33- and 28-residue peptides, respectively, and were first isolated from rat hypothalamus. OXA is completely conserved among human, rat, mouse, and bovine species and is found in the endocrine pancreas. Fasting activates OXA neurons in the lateral hypothalamic area and gut.

    Narcolepsy with hcrt deficiency is now known to be associated with a Human Leukocyte Antigen (HLA) and T-cell receptor (TCR) polymorphisms, suggesting that an autoimmune process targets a single peptide unique to hcrt-cells via specific HLA-peptide-TCR interactions. Recent data have shown a robust seasonality of disease onset in children and associations with Streptococcus Pyogenes, and influenza A H1N1-infection and H1N1-vaccination, pointing towards processes such as molecular mimicry or bystander activation as crucial for disease development. We speculate that upper airway infections may be common precipitants of a whole host of CNS autoimmune complications including narcolepsy.

    Since active pathogens are not discernible in blood serum, what if this is an autoimmune disease or disorder?

    What if these pathogens either bacterial/viral/fungal is the trigger point for a host of fatiguing autoimmune disorders dependent upon the genetic predisposition of a person? So if a patient has a gene mutation in the HLA gene allele region of the brain that attacks any of the hypocretin molecules or their receptors, it is ME/CFS or Narcolepsy or Multiple Sclerosis or Lupus etc. depending upon the location of a mutated HLA gene? Does this make any sense to you?

    Genetic testing should indicate gene mutations in these regions of ME/CFS patients.
    I talked to the Stanford Researcher and Geneticists Dr. Joachim Hallmayer and asked him if another pathogen or even if H1N1 could just wipe a portion of the hypocretins and not all of them; he stated it was a possibility. All narcolepsy patients show a 90% variant of the HLA gene.

    Perhaps that is why research is unable to find this disease in ME/CFS since it only affects people who have a genetic predisposition to a pathogen consisting of viral/ bacterial/fungal pathogen that attacks all or a portion of the hypocretin molecules or receptors that govern circadian rhythms and the sleep/awake cycle. This is why patients experience crippling fatigue but at night suffer from insomnia and are unable to sleep. There is a lot of discussion on the forums concerning sleep medication. I was also reading a blog concerning a woman from Australia who collapses suddenly when she shops.

    Dr. Hallmayer indicated they have not researched this area concerning ME/CFS patients nor researched whether other genetic defects could cause the depletion of the hypocretin molecules.

    RESEARCH ARTICLES:
    Orexins control intestinal glucose transport by distinct neuronal, endocrine, and direct epithelial pathways

    A patient with both narcolepsy and multiple sclerosis in association with Pandemrix vaccination.

    Narcolepsy with cataplexy is caused by a selective loss of hypocretin-producing neurons, but symptomatic narcolepsy can also result from hypothalamic and brain-stem lesions caused by multiple sclerosis (MS). We report a previously healthy man who developed clinical and laboratory verified narcolepsy without having any indication of hypothalamic lesions and MS after vaccination against the influenza H1N1 with Pandemrix. HLA typing showed both DRB1*15:01, associated with MS and DQB1*06:02, associated with narcolepsy. The genetic susceptibility in this patient makes it tempting to speculate upon an immune-mediated mechanism and a common etiology for both diseases in this patient.

    Narcolepsy with hypocretin/orexin deficiency, infections and autoimmunity of the brain.

    Attenuated heart rate response is associated with hypocretin deficiency in patients with narcolepsy

    Effects of ambient temperature on sleep and cardiovascular regulation in mice: the role of hypocretin/orexin neurons.

    Sleepiness at the time of testing impairs olfactory performance.

    A missense mutation in myelin oligodendrocyte glycoprotein as a cause of familial narcolepsy with cataplexy. Constant falling down or weakness in the legs.

    A HUNDRED YEARS OF RESEARCH at Stanford Research

    Selected Publications Stanford Research

    You can Google “streptococcal hypocretin” or Google “influenza h1n1 hypocretin”

    At any rate, the hypothesis is being communicated to Mady Hornig to explore.

    Eco
     
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  12. Wayne

    Wayne Senior Member

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    The whole HPV vaccine nonsense drives me nuts!

    Parental Fear Blocks HPV Vaccination for Teens
     
  13. SilverbladeTE

    SilverbladeTE Senior Member

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    Somewhere near Glasgow, Scotland
    Want me to go get links showing linksbetween vaccien companies and politicians, hm?

    http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news...hpv-debate-gop-republican-bachmann/50394324/1

    then look at links betwene pharma corps and doctors, all the expesnive bribery that goes on...

    Vaccines are a *RACKET* that is all, to the pharma corps, same as any other "product" to those sons of bitches, sigh :/
    Like any pharmaceutical they have potentially superb use, but the insane greed of the pharma corps knows no limits or humanity. And thus, do not expect to fin the truth on scuh matters, for it's heavily obscured to protect their product, same as thye have odne with many other such over the years, but this issue is huge, since governments agreed ot take liability for vaccine damages...think about it.
    It's an incredibly heinous conflict of interests.
     
  14. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    The case for the HPV vaccine needs to be soberly judged in terms of a cost-benefit ratio.

    Stats show that there are over 3,000 new cases of cervical cancer per year in the UK.

    Now we don't have the figures for the number of serious adverse reactions to this vaccine (adverse reactions such as the development of ME/CFS after the HPV vaccination — there have been a number of stories in the newspapers about such side-effects); but if we estimate that were say 5 or 10 people getting such serious adverse reactions from the HPV vaccination per year, then you'd have to balance that with the 3,000+ cancers prevented, and lives saved.

    It seems to me that vaccine policy is a bit like international diplomacy and foreign policy: there is rarely ever a perfect solution in international diplomacy; usually there is only a "lesser of the evils" solution. With vaccination policy, you have to soberly work out the lesser of the evils using mathematics and statistics.
     
  15. SOC

    SOC Moderator and Senior Member

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    Really? You belong to a religion that precludes vaccination?
     
  16. Shoesies

    Shoesies Senior Member

    Yes, we do not believe in mixing animal parts and humans. Many Jewish believers use the words of G-d to support this. We also do not believe in desecration of the body, so I will be buried in 24 hours without embalming. The religious exemption forms can be obtained online, you just need to look for the one from your state.
     
  17. Wayne

    Wayne Senior Member

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    I agree. What drives me nuts is that every statistical analysis I've read or perused says this is not worth the risk. I don't have the inclination to go back and look them all up, but just to mention one variable. The current HPV vaccine only provides an element of protection, and nobody yet knows how much that is or how long it lasts. The need to have ongoing vaccinations would suggest it doesn't last very long.

    But more importantly, the current vaccination provides an element of protection for only one particular strain of the HPV virus. There are several other strains that are not affected whatsoever by the vaccine. So if a person is prudent, they will continue to get pap smears and use other early detection methods for these other strains. And if they're doing that, they could just as easily get screened for the strain that is covered by the current vaccine. From my understanding, early detection goes a long way toward preventing cervical cancer and/or death resulting from it.

    This makes a whole lot more sense to me than subjecting young women to death, and/or lifelong neurological damage, including ME/CFS, with what strikes me as an unnecessary vaccination. How anybody who's aware of these possibilities could knowingly subject their child to such extreme dangers is beyond me. The more I learn about this whole program, the more I consider it to be a huge scam, and many innocent children are paying a very dear price for it.
     
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  18. Tristen

    Tristen Senior Member

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    I too have researched this in the past and found reports of the hpv vaccine to be one with a very high incidence of reported (serious) adverse effects. I agree the vaccine is not worth the risk and that proper screening is much more practical. I have advised my girls of this. HPV is basically ubiquitous and is known to cause more cancers other than just gynecological. Yet I would still much prefer screening over this dangerous vaccine. I feel this is especially true for my offspring since autoimmune disease is prevalent in my family. Myself drawing the short stick with me/cfs.

    Another one that makes absolutely no good sense is vaccinating newborns with the Hep B Vaccine. When asked how they see newborns and school age children to be at risk for HBV, the health dept response is that if the mother is carrying HBV, it will passed to the newborn. Ummmm, how about screening the moms for HBV first, rather than mass vaccination of newborns and young children with the most dangerous vaccine on market, for a disease that they have an almost nonexistent threat of contracting and spreading.
     
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  19. SOC

    SOC Moderator and Senior Member

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    That's interesting. So you don't take some meds either, if they have non-human animal parts? It must get tricky sometimes, avoiding mixing animal parts and humans.
     
  20. sianrecovery

    sianrecovery Senior Member

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    This is an interesting thread. Vaccines really are where money meets politics meets large patient populations. All I can say from my own experience is that in the process of becoming ill, both Hep B and flu vaccines seemed to significantly deepen and hasten my own decline, and I am not having anymore.
     
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