• Welcome to Phoenix Rising!

    Created in 2008, Phoenix Rising is the largest and oldest forum dedicated to furthering the understanding of, and finding treatments for, complex chronic illnesses such as chronic fatigue syndrome (ME/CFS), fibromyalgia, long COVID, postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome (POTS), mast cell activation syndrome (MCAS), and allied diseases.

    To become a member, simply click the Register button at the top right.

Are there alternatives besides 7-keto for raising dhea?

Messages
41
I have done several saliva tests and have found that when i supplement with DHEA, it raises only testosterone, which i do not want. I am not supplement with 7-keto right now, but I did for 8 months last year and my dhea-s level went from 2.7 to 4.5 which is a change, but not that big (at this rate it will take years to reach my desired levels). At that time i was taking 50mg three times a day. I have ordered 7-keto cream and plan to use it for a few months. I know this way is better since it bypasses the liver. My concern with 7-keto supplements is that there is no long-term research on it, and it is said that it may lead to breast, ovarian and prostate cancer. Also, I've tried pregnenolone in the past, and even at low doses it made me very irritable, I'm guessing it probably was raising testosterone too.

Does anyone know of anything that is more likely to only raise DHEA than testosterone?
 

Wonkmonk

Senior Member
Messages
1,012
Location
Germany
I don't, but you could try monk pepper and/or licorice root to counter the rise in testosterone from your current treatment. Red clover or soy isoflavones (genistein etc.) might also be worth trying.

But this should be discussed with a doctor before to rule out any interactions/adverse effects.
 

datadragon

Senior Member
Messages
393
Location
USA
Dhea dosing recommendation for women is 10mg safely if you'd like to pass that on to everyone, additional needed its recommended to use topical. The testosterone is what helps libido for example.

https://www.prohealth.com/library/7-keto-dhea-the-fat-burning-metabolite-of-dhea-36150
7-Keto does not convert to estrogen and testosterone as Dhea does. So if you are trying to use it for some of its other benefits mentioned, it is what you are looking for.

Magnesium seems to be the main mineral that helps natural Dhea production, as levels decrease so does Dhea. Keep in mind that stressors of any kind that boost cortisol such as life stress, caffeine, alcohol, excess sugar, heavy metals, wifi etc all drain the dhea/magnesium. One study showed that after just 28 days of continuous stressors, cortisol levels had climbed to 240 percent of starting values and DHEA had dropped to 15 percent of initial levels so it has value in this regard as well.
 

Wonkmonk

Senior Member
Messages
1,012
Location
Germany
Keep in mind that stressors of any kind that boost cortisol such as life stress, caffeine, alcohol, excess sugar, heavy metals, wifi etc all drain the dhea/magnesium.

Will this also be the case if higher cortisol is the result of lower clearance rates (effect of licorice root), not higher production?
 

datadragon

Senior Member
Messages
393
Location
USA
Licorice contains glycyrrhizic acid. This inhibits cortisol thats already been produced from breaking down further which would make less have to be produced and therefore help to restore normal levels of this hormone. It also boosts levels of DHEA which help counter the negative effects of cortisol. So it isnt the same negative effect as a stressor as far as drain on your body resources. I was suggested however to use things like Ashwagandha which raises or lowers cortisol if used at night and reduces stress and anxiety, or Stinging Nettle Root Extract (which is great for adrenals while also nourishing the liver and kidneys. I used pure science. The others I didnt try but were mentioned were Rehmannia, Schisandra, and HeShouWu, a tonyfying non stimulating herb in asian herbalism.

With more significant adrenal exhaustion, certain adaptogenic herbs like Asian (Panax) Ginseng, Licorice, and Rhodiola along with Tyrosine should be avoided, as they are slightly stimulating and should be avoided or limited. The more advanced the Adrenal Fatigue, the more prominent the stimulatory effects appear. However they are fine with stronger (only very slightly fatigued) adrenals. This has been mentioned to me by several practitioners.
 
Last edited:
Messages
41
I don't, but you could try monk pepper and/or licorice root to counter the rise in testosterone from your current treatment. Red clover or soy isoflavones (genistein etc.) might also be worth trying.

But this should be discussed with a doctor before to rule out any interactions/adverse effects.
I'm currently taking monk pepper. Do you know of any research that states red clover increases DHEA, because I could not find anything. Licorice root makes me feel pretty bad, when I used it in the past.
 
Messages
41
Licorice contains glycyrrhizic acid. This inhibits cortisol thats already been produced from breaking down further which would make less have to be produced and therefore help to restore normal levels of this hormone. It also boosts levels of DHEA which help counter the negative effects of cortisol. So it isnt the same negative effect as a stressor as far as drain on your body resources. I was suggested however to use things like Ashwagandha which raises or lowers cortisol if used at night and reduces stress and anxiety, or Stinging Nettle Root Extract (which is great for adrenals while also nourishing the liver and kidneys. I used pure science. The others I didnt try but were mentioned were Rehmannia, Schisandra, and HeShouWu, a tonyfying non stimulating herb in asian herbalism.

With more significant adrenal exhaustion, certain adaptogenic herbs like Asian (Panax) Ginseng, Licorice, and Rhodiola along with Tyrosine should be avoided, as they are slightly stimulating and should be avoided or limited. The more advanced the Adrenal Fatigue, the more prominent the stimulatory effects appear. However they are fine with stronger (only very slightly fatigued) adrenals. This has been mentioned to me by several practitioners.

I've read that DGL is the form that inhibits cortisol, while regular licorice increases it. I bought some 7-keto cream which is suppose to arrive soon and am taking seriphos to lower cortisol. The seriphos helps, but I'm still waking up at 3-4am, which is probably due to my dhea and progesterone imbalance. For my progesterone, I have extra herbs that i'm planning on trying in the future. I don't want to take a bunch of stuff at once. (I'm already taking vitex, EPO and just started black cohosh, which is helping.) I know for black cohosh, it can take 8 weeks to see results. I do like shisandra and magnolia bark. I will look up Rehmannia and HeShouWu, since I've never heard of them.
 
Last edited:

Ema

Senior Member
Messages
4,729
Location
Midwest USA
Dhea dosing recommendation for women is 10mg safely
I think the dose of DHEA depends on your own lab testing.

Life Extension suggests 275-400 mcg/dL for women is optimal.

I take 25-50 mg/day myself. 25 mg is a pretty typical dose in the Addison's population as well. 25 mg puts my level at right around 280 mcg/dl.

But it is highly individual. I've seen people take as little as 1 mg slivers as well.
 

datadragon

Senior Member
Messages
393
Location
USA
Hi Ema,

Watch the video below. It is suggested to only use 10mg orally. As some need more to get your levels up, then use topical for the rest. This is to prevent potential issues with breast and ovarian cancer. Your personal dose will depend on your needs, those with higher stressors which just happens to be most of us these days will need more to counter the higher cortisol.

 

Ema

Senior Member
Messages
4,729
Location
Midwest USA
Hi Ema,

Watch the video below. It is suggested to only use 10mg orally. As some need more to get your levels up, then use topical for the rest. This is to prevent potential issues with breast and ovarian cancer. Your personal dose will depend on your needs, those with higher stressors which just happens to be most of us these days will need more to counter the higher cortisol.

I tried topical and it did not raise my levels at all.

ETA Does she have any citations for that claim anywhere? The only study I can find shows no relationship between DHEA metabolites and increased risk of breast cancer.
 
Last edited:

datadragon

Senior Member
Messages
393
Location
USA
Hi Pattismith,

Cortisol from ongoing stress depletes the Magnesium and Dhea, B Vitamins, Potassium that counter it etc. And stressors are not just the mental/emotional life stress. Mercury from seafood and dental amalgams (and wifi/radiofrequencies from cell phones double the mercury release and also deplete mag as well even without amalgams), copper in excess (coppertoxic.com), alcohol, caffeine, blood sugar issues, inflammation and more are all treated like you were being chased by a tiger with release of cortisol and adrenaline same as any stressor. The normal reaction of the body to stress is to produce greater quantities of both cortisol and DHEA. When the stress is gone, the body reduces its output of cortisol and DHEA to resting levels and everything is fine. This is what happens with short episodes of stress which is how our bodies work best. However, when the stress is prolonged which as you can see is quite common, the body prefers to make increasingly greater amounts of cortisol and less DHEA in order to be already ready to handle the expected stress, bypassing things like pregnenolone to make more of the downstream things - cortisol.

One study showed that after just 28 days of ongoing stress, cortisol levels had climbed to 240 percent of starting values and DHEA had dropped to 15 percent of initial levels! What's even worse is that even after the stress is removed, the body sometimes does not recover and bring these hormones back to normal levels, but instead, remains in the stress response mode with high cortisol and low DHEA output. No matter which of these types of stress are present, the body's response is always the same: initially both cortisol and DHEA increase, and with prolonged stress, the DHEA drops heavily. Eventually however the body runs out of resources, the adrenal glands become exhausted, and you will see a reduction of cortisol below normal levels when not using stimulants/cortisol, with DHEA coming back up to normal range.
 

datadragon

Senior Member
Messages
393
Location
USA
ETA Does she have any citations for that claim anywhere? The only study I can find shows no relationship between DHEA metabolites and increased risk of breast cancer.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12796390
Women in the high tertile of E(1) (estrone) levels had a significantly (P < 0.01) increased risk of breast cancer as compared with women in the low tertile [odds ratio (OR), 4.14; 95% confidence interval (CI), 1.44-11.87

http://www.peaktestosterone.com/What_Hormones_Does_DHEA_Change.aspx
Estrone. This estrogen tripled from 163 to 498 pg/ml from weeks 1 to 8. Of course, this is odd, because estradiol scarely changed, but this estrogen changed dramatically

I think estrone, not estradiol is the culprit when levels are too high for awhile in regards to DHEA. Maybe at least check your estrone levels when you check Dhea.


I tried topical and it did not raise my levels at all.

Did you try 10mg oral plus topical to see if you can raise levels, rather then solely topical?

Research into Stinging Nettle Root Extract shows that it may interfere with the process that converts some of the sex hormones into estrogen metabolites. The ingredient seems to be beta sitosterol. This is one possible aromatase inhibitor rather then drugs. I havent looked into others yet since nettle root had good benefits for adrenals, liver, and kidney as well as having potassium, calcium, magnesium, iron, copper, zinc, vitamins A, B, C, D, K, cobalt, iodine, sulphur and more.
 
Last edited:

Wayne

Senior Member
Messages
4,307
Location
Ashland, Oregon
Does anyone know of anything that is more likely to only raise DHEA than testosterone?

Hi @Mylifesobright,

You may want to consider pregnenolone, which I take every day (50 mg -- Source Naturals). I sent an email to a friend last year about what I'd learned about pregnenolone. I'll paste it below, as I think the answer to your question is in it...

I've tried pregnenolone in the past, and even at low doses it made me very irritable, I'm guessing it probably was raising testosterone too.

I just noticed you've already tried pregnenolone. Have you considered trying a different brand. You wouldn't think it, but sometimes that can make all the difference in the world.
........................................................................................

"""I've read several references to how pregnenolone "appears" to balance out the major steroidal hormones in our body. That said, there's not been enough research to discern exactly how it can affect us at different dosages over varying periods of time.

It seems to be especially effective at countering the effects of too much cortisol in the body, which can have damaging effects. So, my understanding is that it's believed that certain hormones "may" be raised, while others "may" be lowered, depending on what the body needs. Apparently, give the body the "precursor" to all these hormones, and the body will decide for itself what to do with it.

I just read a new article on it this morning. LINK HERE. It's fairly lengthy, but thought I cut and paste three sections on history, dosage, safety, and contraindications. I asked Alea this morning if she was still taking it, and she said she ran out of what I had given her. She said she got a subtle sense of feeling more grounded, but didn't test that she should necessarily continue to take it.

I think it's wise to proceed slowly when dealing with anything having to do with regulating hormone levels. For me, my whole endocrine system has taken a "broad side" from my Lyme situation, and I've had to experiment with cortisol, thryoid, melatonin, DHEA and other things that affect all those levels. It's a continuing challenge to figure it all out. Pregnenolone strikes me as one of the safest of all the things I've tried, and I have a pretty high comfort level with the 50 mg/day I'm taking at this time.

But most other people are likely not dealing with such an extreme situation as mine. Plus, I've read references to some people getting good results at relatively low doses--even as low as only 2 mg/day. So starting out really slowly might be a good way to alleviate any concerns about safety.

One last point: It appears that at our age, our bodies are only making about half as much pregnenolone as when we were in our thirties. It makes sense to me that that are certain risks associated with that. So an exercise might be to compare the risks of taking pregnenolone, to the risks of not taking it. Given my own experience, the answer for me is pretty clear.

Hope that helps.
cid:15b15a21-93c6-4dbc-82da-5111490c163e

..........................................................................

Safety

Fortunately, pregnenolone is amazingly safer than other steroids. Pregnenolone researchers working with both human and animal subjects since the 1940s have consistently commented on pregnenolones virtual absence of toxicity. For example, the classic review article on pregnenolone by Henderson and colleagues in 1950 states: 'It [pregnenolone] has an extremely low order of toxicity; [it] has not shown any adverse effects on endocrine [hormone] physiology ....'

Pregnenolone has been given orally to humans at doses as high as 500 mg/day for as long as 30 weeks without evidence of adverse effects. Mice given 5 grams (1/6 ounce) per kilogram (2.2 pounds) of body weight suffered no ill effects. This would be equivalent to a 154 pound (70 kilogram) human ingesting 350 grams (approximately 3/4 pound) per day! In a long-term study, mice that were given one gram pregnenolone per kilogram of body weight three times weekly for 50 doses suffered no toxic reactions -- including no changes in the size and condition of offspring produced after the 50 doses.

In one human study, eight people received 50 to 150 milligrams per day by intramuscular injection for 75 days, with no reported side effects. Dr. Eugene Roberts gave 20 Alzheimers patients 525 mg/day for three months with no toxicity. During rheumatoid arthritis experiments with pregnenolone, Dr. H. Freeman and colleagues gave 500 mg pregnenolone/day for up to 30 weeks, with no toxicity. And Drs. Pincus and Hoagland, two of the pioneer researchers on pregnenolone use by humans in the 1940s, found no toxic reactions with pregnenolone used by hundreds of men and women at dosages of 100 mg/day for four months.

Dosage

The classic studies on pregnenolone and stress in the 1940s by Pincus and Hoagland generally used only 50 mg/day to achieve excellent results, while arthritis studies typically used 200-500 mg daily. Thus, although pregnenolone appears amazingly safe and beneficial, there are still many unanswered questions regarding proper dosage, metabolism, and clinical effects. Keeping these uncertainties in mind, here are some recommendations for dosage.

For those wishing to err on the side of caution, 50 to 100 mg pregnenolone per day would probably be suitable for use without physician monitoring. Perhaps an additional safety margin (for this already amazingly-safe substance) could be achieved through discontinuing use for one week every month. Those wishing to use the higher, anti-arthritis doses (200 - 500 mg/day) should probably do so only under the supervision of their physician, even though many human clinical studies with arthritis at these dosages yielded no problems or toxicities. Morning is the perfect time to take pregnenolone, and a single daily dose is probably best, since pregnenolone is fat-soluble, and probably follows the circadian highs and lows of DHEA and cortisol (highest in the morning, with a drop to baseline by late afternoon). On an anecdotal note, there have been patients taking 100 - 1,000 mg pregnenolone/day intermittently since 1987, with no discernible negative side effects.

Contraindications

While there has been no definite information published as to who should not take pregnenolone, on theoretical grounds, a few cautions can be suggested. Since pregnenolone (especially at high doses) may (in some people) increase estrogen or testosterone levels, I believe that men with prostate cancer (which may be worsened by testosterone) and women with breast or ovarian cancer (which may be worsened by estrogen) should probably take pregnenolone only with their doctors consent and supervision. Men with high PSA (prostate specific antigen) blood levels (possible indicator for undiagnosed or future prostate cancer) should also proceed with caution with pregnenolone use.

Lastly, because of pregnenolones anti-GABA, pro-NMDA action, persons known to suffer from epileptic seizures or who are taking an anti-seizure medication such as Dilantin, Depakote or Tegretol should probably only use pregnenolone with their doctors supervision. Finally, as we age, the body produces ever-less of the enzyme which converts pregnenolone to DHEA. Thus, while supplementary pregnenolone taken during middle age and beyond will produce at least some normalization back toward more youthful (and healthful) levels of other steroid hormones, pregnenolone will not completely substitute for other steroid hormone supplements in those with medically demonstrated needs for various specific steroids i.e., DHEA, cortisol, estrogen, etc.
.................................................................

I think I'll leave you with another link to another pregnenolone article. The author describes some of his own somewhat "esoteric" experiences from taking it.:

Review of Pregnenolone: Nature's Feel-Good Hormone by Ray ...
www.life-enhancement.com
Review of Pregnenolone - Nature's Feel-Good Hormone by Ray Sahelian, MD. Enchanting Pregnenolone: Intimations of Immortality. By Will Block . n addition to memory ...​
 
Messages
41
Hi @Mylifesobright, You may want to consider pregnenolone, which I take every day (50 mg -- Source Naturals).
I tried oral pregnenolone in the past at 5mg sublingual for a week, but it gave me stomach aches. After that, I tried pregnenolone cream at 15mg and within 3 or 4 days started to sweat like crazy at night. I usually have night sweats (i have been taking some herbs to reduce them, which is working), but this was unbearable. I stopped taking the pregnenolone, and after a week or so, the excessive sweating stopped. Now that I think about it, I wonder if it was increasing testosterone or estrogen.

BioMatrix makes pregnenolone in liquid form. Each drop contains 1.2mg. I wonder if that would be worth trying? Do you think that at such a small dose, the body is less likely to convert it to estrogen or testosterone and instead just boost DHEA? I know the body is very complex. I wonder what the likelihood would be.

I think from what I've read and what my test results show, taking 7-keto is my best bet. I think while on it, i just need to work on managing stress, working on my diet, and boosting my progesterone levels. I've read that these things are the keys to balancing all hormones. I just hope that it is not an extremely long process.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Ema

Senior Member
Messages
4,729
Location
Midwest USA

http://www.peaktestosterone.com/What_Hormones_Does_DHEA_Change.aspx
Estrone. This estrogen tripled from 163 to 498 pg/ml from weeks 1 to 8. Of course, this is odd, because estradiol scarely changed, but this estrogen changed dramatically

I think estrone, not estradiol is the culprit when levels are too high for awhile in regards to DHEA. Maybe at least check your estrone levels when you check Dhea.
I was wanting to read the peak testosterone article, but it won't load for me. Is there a study they are referencing in there somewhere that you could link up for me here?

A different perspective on estrone to be found here:

The effects of estrogens go beyond reproductive functions. Estrone (E1) in mature humans has many beneficial actions. Estrone protects the endothelial lining of blood vessels. The endothelium is the term for the lining of your blood vessels. Your heart is as healthy as you’re the health of the lining of your blood vessels. Estrone helps prevent this endothelium from shrinking and becoming excessively rigid and unhealthy. Rarely in nature is something all good or bad. One reason that women have more estrone when they are older is that their older blood vessels and heart need it. Estrone promotes the production of nitric oxide. This acts like a yogic molecule on the blood vessels keeping them dilated, relaxed and Zen. Estrone and estradiol both help produce healthier blood vessels and thus healthier heart function.

I will check estrone levels next labs and report back!
 

Ema

Senior Member
Messages
4,729
Location
Midwest USA
I actually found one set of estrone/DHEA levels in my history...DHEA 193 (60-337) and estrone 101 (16-175). That was on 10mg oral DHEA and 200 mg 7-Keto DHEA.
 

datadragon

Senior Member
Messages
393
Location
USA
Hi Ema,

The wayback machine archives alot of internet content, you can use it to read websites and pages that are gone or changed, selecting a particular date for example to see how it was on that specific date:
https://web.archive.org/web/2017011...erone.com/What_Hormones_Does_DHEA_Change.aspx

Everything in the body is about balance. Both too much and too little can cause issues. Too much or too little dhea, too much estrone, too much calcium, too much Vitamin B6, Selenium, Vitamin D etc is a problem like deficiency.
 

Ema

Senior Member
Messages
4,729
Location
Midwest USA
Hi Ema,

The wayback machine archives alot of internet content, you can use it to read websites and pages that are gone or changed, selecting a particular date for example to see how it was on that specific date:
https://web.archive.org/web/2017011...erone.com/What_Hormones_Does_DHEA_Change.aspx

Everything in the body is about balance. Both too much and too little can cause issues. Too much or too little dhea, too much estrone, too much calcium, too much Vitamin B6, Selenium, Vitamin D etc is a problem like deficiency.
I always forget about that site! Thanks!