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Are Infections Just a Trigger of ME/CFS, or an Ongoing Cause of ME/CFS?

voner

Senior Member
Messages
592
Yes, to clarify, I doubt infection causes autoimmunity more than very rarely, but I think ME presenting as an infection may be autoimmune. If the effect of the autoimmune response is to make the person react excessively to viruses then the first sign of the auotimmunity will be a 'viral illness'. Something like this happens in lupus. The effect is to make the patient unable to defend themselves against bacterial or fungal infection so the lupus may present as severe sepsis.

very, very interesting. @Jonathan Edwards, you are a fountain of enlightenment. could you elaborate a little more on what happens with the Lupus auto immune response that makes people react excessively to viruses? Does this happen for other types and functions also?
 

Jonathan Edwards

"Gibberish"
Messages
5,256
very, very interesting. @Jonathan Edwards, you are a fountain of enlightenment. could you elaborate a little more on what happens with the Lupus auto immune response that makes people react excessively to viruses? Does this happen for other types and functions also?

In the case of lupus it is more a question of failing to react to bacterial microbes because the mechanism of B cell selection is disorganised and so effective antibodies are not produced. That allows the organism to gain hold when it would normally not.

The reason for the disorganisation of B cell selection is not fully understood but may have to do with blocking of the way complement is used to weed out immature B cells in bone marrow. Complement is normally used to get rid of autoantibody B cells and approve of anti-microbe B cells in marrow. If it is blocked, for instance by anti-complement antibodies - which are common in lupus - then the marrow may send out any old antibodies. This means that there may be all sorts of autoantibody B cells surviving (as is the case in lupus) and not enough anti-microbe ones. Complement is also involved in positive selection of anti-microbe antibody B cells later on and that may go wrong too.
 

lansbergen

Senior Member
Messages
2,512
In the case of lupus it is more a question of failing to react to bacterial microbes because the mechanism of B cell selection is disorganised and so effective antibodies are not produced. That allows the organism to gain hold when it would normally not.

The reason for the disorganisation of B cell selection is not fully understood but may have to do with blocking of the way complement is used to weed out immature B cells in bone marrow. Complement is normally used to get rid of autoantibody B cells and approve of anti-microbe B cells in marrow. If it is blocked, for instance by anti-complement antibodies - which are common in lupus - then the marrow may send out any old antibodies. This means that there may be all sorts of autoantibody B cells surviving (as is the case in lupus) and not enough anti-microbe ones. Complement is also involved in positive selection of anti-microbe antibody B cells later on and that may go wrong too.

@Simon Wasn't something strange happening in the complement system?
 

Eeyore

Senior Member
Messages
595
It doesn't sound likely it's the same mechanism as lupus. What Dr. Edwards is describing is something where because B-cell selection is grossly dysfunctional, there is no mechanism in place at all to select against B-cells that are autoreactive - so you have lots of antibodies to everything in the body, as if it were foreign. Curiously that also apparently means there is lack of positive selection in the thymus too. We see nothing like this in ME as far as I know. ANA is generally negative, and we don't really see the same tendency to develop multiple, new autoimmune diseases that are characterized by readily known antibodies (if the rate of autoimmunity is higher in ME vs age/gender matched controls, I have not seen anything showing that).

If there is an antibody in ME that is causing the problems, I think it's very likely that it's somewhat more specific and targeted to produce these symptoms.

I think the easiest thing to do experimentally would be to find out if serum from people with severe ME has any effects on mice if injected. You run risks of false negatives due to cross-species variability, but that might be a starting point. Alternately, you could look at labelling human antibodies by fluorescence and seeing if you get any reaction to an array of human tissues in vitro. I'd be curious how this problem is actually approached most often - although we don't know of that many autoantibodies - and i suspect there are many more.

I read one interesting paper which showed a high level of antibodies to heat shock proteins in ME patients. This is pretty interesting, as heat shock proteins are a critical part of handling any kind of cellular stress. They allow intrinsically disordered proteins to fold correctly in the ER - so failure there is a plausible mechanism (to me at least). I don't think it was a very big study, but interesting still - and would need replication. I'm not sure how specific the autoantibodies are, but often in autoimmune disease there is some lack of specificity and sensitivity. e.g. In Sjogren's, the 2 main autoantibodies we look for account for something like 50% of the cases we encounter.

There are some genes that broadly affect rates of autoimmunity - I think alterations in complement genes are among them, but I can't swear to that. I would expect these to be overrepresented in autoimmune patients vs controls (of any type). I wonder if they are overrepresented in ME. If so that would suggest even more that a deeper search for the as of yet undiscovered autoantibody Dr. Edwards has postulated would be merited.
 

lansbergen

Senior Member
Messages
2,512
I think the easiest thing to do experimentally would be to find out if serum from people with severe ME has any effects on mice if injected. You run risks of false negatives due to cross-species variability, but that might be a starting point.

Use rats?
 

Eeyore

Senior Member
Messages
595
I'm not an expert in the experimental methods, but I think that in light of the rituximab trial successes, we should be looking for a very general way to show that there is or is not an antibody involved in ME.
 

Marco

Grrrrrrr!
Messages
2,386
Location
Near Cognac, France
I read one interesting paper which showed a high level of antibodies to heat shock proteins in ME patients. This is pretty interesting, as heat shock proteins are a critical part of handling any kind of cellular stress. They allow intrinsically disordered proteins to fold correctly in the ER - so failure there is a plausible mechanism (to me at least). I don't think it was a very big study, but interesting still - and would need replication.

Daft question but is there any possibility that antibodies to HSPs could result in underproduction (as per the two Yves Jammes papers) due to some sort of negative feedback?
 

Marco

Grrrrrrr!
Messages
2,386
Location
Near Cognac, France
Underproduction of what?

Sorry - heat shock proteins as per this :

Two groups of researchers however have independently found a defective (attenuated) HSP response to oxidative stress induced by exercise in ME/CFS patients (Thambirajah et al, 2008, Jammes et al 2009, 2011). In the 2011 Jammes study it should be noted that this dysfunction was most strongly associated with those reporting a prior viral illness or previously engaging in high intensity exercise.

Intriguingly (in normal subjects) HSP production typically peaks at 48 hours post exercise (Morton et al, 2006) which accords with the description of post-exertional malaise/PENE in response to exercise in the International Consensus Primer (Carruthers, van de Sande, 2012).

Refs :

Differential heat shock protein responses to strenuous standardized exercise in chronic fatigue syndrome patients and matched healthy controls. Anita A. Thambirajah BSc. Kenna Sleigh RN, MSN, PhD. H. Grant Stiver MD, FRCPC. Anthony W. Chow MD, FACP, FRCPC
http://www.name-us.org/ResearchPage...idativeArticles/2008ChowHeatShockProteins.pdf

Chronic fatigue syndrome combines increased exercise-induced oxidative stress and reduced cytokine and Hsp responses. Jammes Y, Steinberg JG, Delliaux S, Brégeon F. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19457057

Chronic fatigue syndrome: acute infection and history of physical activity affect resting levels and response to exercise of plasma oxidant/antioxidant status and heat shock proteins. Jammes Y, Steinberg JG, Delliaux S. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22112145

Time course and differential responses of the major heat shock protein families in human skeletal muscle following acute nondamaging treadmill exercise. James P. Morton, Don P. M. MacLaren, Nigel T. Cable, Thomas Bongers, Richard D. Griffiths, Iain T. Campbell, Louise Evans, Anna Kayani, Anne McArdle, and Barry Drust. http://jap.physiology.org/content/101/1/176.full
 
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Eeyore

Senior Member
Messages
595
Very interesting - I suspect perhaps you might be seeing 2 separate processes with a final common pathway of reduced HSP function.

For example, some might not express HSP's normally due to lack of some stimulus, or lack of response to that stimulus. Some people might express them, but they are destroyed by antiboodies. Still others might have defective HSP genes. This is highly speculative, but it seems reasonable.

Anti-HSP antibodies would more likely cause a compensatory upregulation of HSP transcription/translation, if anything.

This does suggest that there is some disruption of the unfolded protein response in ME, something I've been looking at for a while.
 

Simon

Senior Member
Messages
3,789
Location
Monmouth, UK
@Simon Wasn't something strange happening in the complement system?
Not sure. These papers by Sorenssen suggest so
Complement activation in a model of chronic fatigue syndrome. (2003)- PubMed - NCBI
Transcriptional Control of Complement Activation in an Exercise Model of Chronic Fatigue Syndrome (2009)

But to my untrained eye it seemed odd that C4a was activated but not C3a or C5a, which are downstream in the complement cascade and I'd have expecte C4a activation to lead to C3a and C5a activation too. See diagram below (C3 & C5 are part of the final pathway)

2157-7633-1-e102-g002.gif

From: Bioactive Sphingolipids and Complement Cascade as New Emerging Regulators of Stem Cell Mobilization and Homing | Open Access | OMICS Publishing Group
 

msf

Senior Member
Messages
3,650
I tried to read up on complement, but I couldn't find anything that wasn't a very dense scientific paper that only dealt with part of it, or a very brief outline that didn't answer any of my questions.
 

unto

Senior Member
Messages
175
Hello everyone,
I am sick since 1985 (30 years) of ME, which began as a mild flu / sore throat, then a little 'at a time came the other symptoms (headache, difficulty digesting, drowsiness, vulnerability to cold, joint pain / muscle .....).
Since 2000 about I am convinced that the disease is contagious
and persistent, that I can pass it even now (and this is terrible); I noticed the symptoms in people who until 10 years ago did not know and since they attended our house have contracted the ME (to me);
of course I can not prove anything ........, I told several doctors who did not believe me ...... unfortunately the / sick I did not have the courage to ask
I think that the cause of ME is one, probably a virus, like XMRV,
unknown or for which there is a valid test
 

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,858
Since 2000 about I am convinced that the disease is contagious
and persistent, that I can pass it even now (and this is terrible); I noticed the symptoms in people who until 10 years ago did not know and since they attended our house have contracted the ME (to me);
of course I can not prove anything ........, I told several doctors who did not believe me

I observed a similar contagiousness with the virus that appeared to cause my ME/CFS: even two years after I first caught my virus, it was still transmitting and infecting other people. The main symptoms my virus caused in others were anxiety, anhedonia and depression, and also myocarditis and heart attacks were common on contracting the virus. Many people who caught my virus seemed to manifest mild ME/CFS symptoms, such as increased fatigue, sound or light sensitivity, or "tip of the tongue" phenomena where you temporarily forget a common word or person's name. However, I don't know anyone who developed full ME/CFS from the virus as I did. By its particular symptoms, my virus is most likely an enterovirus such as coxsackievirus B.

Dr John Richardson, a family doctor who worked in the Newcastle area, UK, was an excellent observer of the spread of ME/CFS enteroviruses from one family member to the next. Over 40 years, would observe how once an enterovirus infected one member of a family, it would spread to other members, and to other families, and to the next generation.

Richardson, working with Prof James Mowbray, was the first to show the presence of enterovirus in the brain tissues of a ME/CFS patient.

The problem is that it is very hard to turn these observations of infections spreading among family and acquaintances into solid scientific data.

Here is Dr John Richardson's obituary from the British Medical Journal:
OBITUARY

John Richardson


BMJ 2002; 325 doi: 10.1136/bmj.325.7366.716 (Published 28 September 2002)

General practitioner whose records on coxsackie infection won him worldwide fame

The international reputation that John Richardson acquired in the field of myalgic encephalitis (ME) research sprang from the records that he kept for 40 years of enteroviral infections, mostly coxsackie virus. He realised that enteroviral infections were endemic among his practice population on the south bank of the Tyne, spreading from one family to another and from one generation to the next. The public health authorities seemed to be unaware of it and facilities for identification were rarely available locally. The late Dr Eleanor Bell of Glasgow, who had conducted her own researches into the prevalence of enteroviral infections in southwest Scotland, was generous in filling the gap.

The clinical features of these infections varied from Bornholm disease—a common short illness with chest pain—to audible pericarditis, serious myocarditis, and valvulitis with dysfunction. Other features were muscle pain, jitter and weakness, sleep disturbance, hypersensitivity to sound and light, and mild confusion. Many organs in the body could also be affected. In the long term the effects were sometimes serious. While some members of a family would escape with a brief febrile illness only, coxsackie infection could leave one person struggling for years with ME or dilated cardiomyopathy. Worse still, John found that the infection would readily pass from the mother to her unborn child, which would be delivered with fibroelastosis or maldevelopment of the heart, or structural defects of the brain or other organ. He tried to prevent this in early pregnancy by giving the mother intramuscular injections of human immunoglobulin.

Early on John believed that ME was an illness that could follow directly from a coxsackie infection and one that was capable of altering the whole personality and abilities of someone he had known for years. The idea that it was just depression or hysteria, a psychoneurosis or “all in the mind,” he found not only ludicrous and cruel, but also dangerous, and his records contain several examples of suicide. When patients told him that they had grown tired after taking vigorous or progressively “graded” exercise and found that they had to pay for it by being much worse for the next day or so, he believed them and sought other methods of treatment.

The fame of his records led James Mowbray, professor of immunopathology at St Mary's Hospital, London, to offer him unrestricted facilities for identification of the various strains of the coxsackie group of viruses, as well as other viruses less frequently encountered. Leonard Archard, now professor of biochemistry at Imperial College, London, was also helpful in culturing virus in samples of tissue sent to him and both became personal friends. John did not publish these records in the form of his book Enteroviral and Toxin Mediated Myalgic Encephalitis/Chronic Fatigue Syndrome and Other Organ Pathologies (Haworth Medical Press) until 2001.

John also became acquainted with Dr Melvin Ramsay, who defined benign myalgic encephalomyelitis in 1956 after studying an outbreak of Bornholm disease at the Royal Free Hospital, London. John became a founder member of the ME Association, renamed the Ramsay Research Fund in 1999 after Melvyn Ramsay's death.

John's own international reputation grew rapidly after an international symposium on myalgic encephalitis was held in Cambridge, United Kingdom, in 1989. He was chairman of it and the book that followed in 1992, The Clinical and Scientific Basis of Myalgic Encephalomyelitis, edited by Dr Byron Hyde, not only contains a chapter written by John, but is dedicated to him.

John gave up all NHS work in 1992 and his appointment as a senior police surgeon. However, he continued to see patients privately. Most came from the United Kingdom, but some also from France, Republic of Ireland, Belgium, and Norway. He refused fees, but suggested instead a contribution to the research fund that he established. This he used partly to finance scientific papers that he wrote and partly as gifts to individuals and university departments where the effects of long term survival of virus in the human body were being studied. His own papers were into what part of the brain was involved in ME. John also used the patient contributions to finance an annual international conference in his local area. The pursuit of these researches did not prevent him playing a full part in the general practice of which he was a partner, including training medical students sent to him by the university.

Outside medicine his main interest was music, especially playing the three manual pipe organ, which with assistance he had built in his own house and for which he composed 28 pieces. Predeceased by a daughter, he leaves a wife, Margaret (Peggy), and three children.

John Richardson, former general practitioner Ryton, Tyne and Wear (b 1915; q Durham 1952), died in the Freeman Hospital, Newcastle, on 18 July 2002.
 
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leokitten

Senior Member
Messages
1,595
Location
U.S.
I observed a similar contagiousness with the virus that appeared to cause my ME/CFS: even two years after I first caught my virus, it was still transmitting and infecting other people. The main symptoms my virus caused in others were anxiety, anhedonia and depression, and also myocarditis and heart attacks were common on contracting the virus. Many people who caught my virus seemed to manifest mild ME/CFS symptoms, such as increased fatigue, sound or light sensitivity, or "tip of the tongue" phenomena where you temporarily forget a common word or person's name. However, I don't know anyone who developed full ME/CFS from the virus as I did. By its particular symptoms, my virus is most likely an enterovirus such as coxsackievirus B.

Dr John Richardson, a family doctor who worked in the Newcastle area, UK, was an excellent observer of the spread of ME/CFS enteroviruses from one family member to the next. Over 40 years, would observe how once an enterovirus infected one member of a family, it would spread to other members, and to other families, and to the next generation.

Richardson, working with Prof James Mowbray, was the first to show the presence of enterovirus in the brain tissues of a ME/CFS patient.

The problem is that it is very hard to turn these observations of infections spreading among family and acquaintances into solid scientific data.

Here is Dr John Richardson's obituary from the British Medical Journal:

The question I ask myself is, if there is indeed a virus causing ME/CFS and other major problems that is as easily transmittable and causes the very significant symptoms in most people that you've stated wouldn't there be a widespread epidemic of people with these symptoms? All the people you've supposedly infected are contagious and infecting others, and they further infect others, and so on exponentially, and the symptoms are quite serious.

Why do so many people with ME/CFS have wives and husbands with no health problems? (including my own)
 
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SOC

Senior Member
Messages
7,849
Why do so many people with ME/CFS have wives and husbands with no health problems? (including my own)
I think the idea is not that there is a unique virus that is capable of causing symptoms in everyone exposed, but that there is a double- (or triple-) hit situation going on or that some other factor impacts the severity of illness as the result of infection. Perhaps PWME have genetic immune problems that make them less capable of handling the virus than most people, or that it takes multiple stressors at the same time or in close succession to make a PWME susceptible to a more serious infection from the virus. It's possible we are not able to clear the virus the way other people do.

There are known examples of pathogens affecting people very differently -- even people in close contact. Think about EBV and Burkitt's or Hodgkin's Lymphoma. Very few people get either of those diseases as a result of EBV infection, but some do as a result of genetic factors or combined infections. Another example is polio. Many people get it and clear it without consequence, but others have mild-severe consequences. IIRC, the factor is what tissues get infected. For example, my cousin is quadriplegic as the result of polio while her brothers who got ill at the same time have no known consequences from the infection.

While those cases are hit-and-run situations, it's not beyond the realm of possibility that any number of factors, immune dysfunction or location of infection for example, might make an infection enduring (or reactivating) in some people but not in others.
 
Messages
24
I do not believe any particular pathogen is responsible for ME - it's just that we don't respond normally to infection, stress, and inflammation.

I believe this explains partial case of CFS.

However, there are case where untreated Malaria progressed to CFS. And I think it may not happen with overreacting immune system. I believe for that Malaria case, either underreactive or normal immune response is involved. It's just untreated pathogen unluckily damages particular nerve associated with CFS "mode".