Professor & patients' paper on the solvable biological challenge of ME/CFS: reader-friendly version
Simon McGrath provides a patient-friendly version of a peer-reviewed paper which highlights some of the most promising biomedical research on ME/CFS ...
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Are endogenous depression and cfs close relatives?

Discussion in 'General ME/CFS Discussion' started by amaru7, Mar 23, 2015.

  1. amaru7

    amaru7 Senior Member

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    Hi, I found and interesting article about new research showing that depressed patients have low ATP- due to mitochondrial dysfunction.

    Unfortunately it's only in german and I'm too tied to translate the full article. You might use Google translator.

    Link http://www.fr-online.de/wissenschaf...ellen-die-energie-fehlt,1472788,28125602.html

    I understand how many of cfs patients get defensive when called depressed, because of the misconception that depression is just a "mental" thing not knowing how much of our mental as well as physical state is connected to chemicals. Trying to treat this with speech therapy is like treating heart disease with it.

    in case of endogenous depression it's the body that's causing the physical and mental state of depressed patients that is very often related in some points to cfs.

    Just my 5 cents. In my sig link you can see that cfs often have low neurotransmitter to begin with.

    You can call it comorbid. Many chronic heavy depressed patients have partially cfs symptoms and vice versa.

    In both cases my wish is that the population and professionals acknowledge that IT IS PHYSICAL and treat accordingly.
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2015
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  2. A.B.

    A.B. Senior Member

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  3. amaru7

    amaru7 Senior Member

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    Perfect thanks that's it @A.B. :thumbsup:
     
  4. Mij

    Mij Senior Member

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    I'm not sure why you feel the need to compare the two when mitochondrial dysfunction contributes to a wide range of human diseases including Parkinson's D, MS cardiovascular disease etc.
     
  5. Jonathan Edwards

    Jonathan Edwards "Gibberish"

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    This looks to me to be a poor study. They have looked at the respiratory capacity of a standardised number of peripheral blood mononuclear cells (PBMC). But PBMC are a mixture of monocytes and various lymphocyte types and the respiratory capacity of monocytes and lymphocytes is likely to be completely different and moreover, is likely to change in both types of cell with the time the cell has been in the circulation and all sorts of other things. People who do a lot of activity probably have cells trafficking through the blood faster - going to muscles to repair etc etc so it would not be surprising if people who are rather inactive from ME or depression would give a different result because the cells being studied are not comparable in age and type.

    The authors say 'This study investigated mitochondrial respiration in peripheral blood mononuclear cells (PBMCs), an established model to investigate the pathophysiology of depression.' which seems to me a pretty silly comment. 'Established model' just means that other people have used it, not that there is any reason to think it makes any sense.

    I am very doubtful that these results have anything to do with mitochondria being dysfunctional. I think they are looking at shifts in cell traffic. Even if the mitochondria are being more sluggish than usual I think it most likely that this would be due to the effect of some circulating hormone or cytokine. 'Dysfunctional' implies that there is actually something wrong with the mitochondrion itself and that seems to me very unlikely.
     
  6. amaru7

    amaru7 Senior Member

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    Nevertheless, between CFS and depression is a strong correlation and many with CFS have comorbit depression.

    This is a video about depression from Stanford University, very interesting and shows how misunderstood this disease is to this date.
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2015
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  7. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

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    Being attacked by an elephant has the same response as major depression, really? I would be taking the bolt. I wouldn't feel sad or become vegetive.

    they make psychology sound scientific by mentioning neurotransmitters, but they still really don't know which ones.

    if there are low neurotransmitters, why?
    I still think depression is mostly a symptom of something else. He touches on what we call adrenal fatigue/dysfunction from overstressed or burnout. But he's really mentioning psychological type stress and worry. Missing a lot of other biological stesses like chronic infections, inflammation etc. This is why I think many mecfsers get diagnosed with depression.

    yes we can get symptoms of depression but we dont have a disease called depression.

    too me it seems many psychs try to squeeze things like cfs into depression diagnosis instead of understanding that depression is a secondary effects of mecfs just like it would be in cancer or some other life altering disease.

    another thing I noticed is that its mentioned that high cortisol is a sign of stress and depression. I would also think that low cortisol should be mentioned, possibly from chronic stress psychologically and physiologically.

    Psychiatrist diagnosing people with depression, why arent they also testing cortisol and other adrenal hormones and trying to correct them first instead of down stream signalling eg serotonin, noradrenaline? Is it a drug profit thing? I hate bagging big pharma as I want them to cure us but it has me thinking.

    I have thought this and I think this link shows it, but adrenal fatigue/dysfunction is probably a more accurate diagnosis than depression is but for some reason adrenal fatigue is seen more of as a sham.

    food for thought.
     
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  8. A.B.

    A.B. Senior Member

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    Depression is just a symptom of immune activation.
     
  9. Rand56

    Rand56 Senior Member

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    [QUOTE="heapsreal, post: 578315, member: 187"}Is it a drug profit thing?[/QUOTE]

    I'm thinking this is the case. It's all about money more than anything else. This will never change. Pharma companies have a fiduciary responsibility to increase share price for their stockholders. How do they do this? By coming out with the "latest and greatest" new drug <which may not even be better than any drug already on the market>, and by increasing sales on existing drugs.

    I remember many years ago when I first started seeing drug ads on TV. I'm thinking WTF is this all about? Aren't doctors suppose to know what drugs to prescribe, so why are they even advertising to the general public? It's all about creating more demand. Joe Patient see's drug on a commercial, goes to see doc and says "Can I try this fancy dancy new drug I saw on TV?" Doc: "Sure, here is your script" Doc is no doubt thinking..great..my patient gets what he/she wants, and I get can get rid of he/she quicker to move on to my next patient, because I have to see more patients these days to make enough money.

    It's all a damn money racket.
     
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  10. adreno

    adreno PR activist

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    Life is, generally.
     
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  11. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

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    I'm thinking this is the case. It's all about money more than anything else. This will never change. Pharma companies have a fiduciary responsibility to increase share price for their stockholders. How do they do this? By coming out with the "latest and greatest" new drug <which may not even be better than any drug already on the market>, and by increasing sales on existing drugs.

    I remember many years ago when I first started seeing drug ads on TV. I'm thinking WTF is this all about? Aren't doctors suppose to know what drugs to prescribe, so why are they even advertising to the general public? It's all about creating more demand. Joe Patient see's drug on a commercial, goes to see doc and says "Can I try this fancy dancy new drug I saw on TV?" Doc: "Sure, here is your script" Doc is no doubt thinking..great..my patient gets what he/she wants, and I get can get rid of he/she quicker to move on to my next patient, because I have to see more patients these days to make enough money.

    It's all a damn money racket.[/QUOTE]

    I would like to know the percentage of people who have had their serotonin levels tested prior to getting a drug that raises serotonin?

    Im not against them as they seem to help many, but i dont think they really know how they work.

    I wish they would stop calling them antidepressants but maybe serotonin boosters or noradrenaline boosters and then explain to people what these neurotransmitters can do eg serotonin reduces substance P, so one gets a serotonin booster to trying and lower substance P etc etc

    For me i think using the term depression or antidepressants are too vague a term.
     
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  12. Rand56

    Rand56 Senior Member

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    I would like to know the percentage of people who have had their serotonin levels tested prior to getting a drug that raises serotonin?[/QUOTE]

    This % has to be very small, miniscule no doubt. I would guess that the people who do get their serotonin levels tested, more than likely got it tested on their own. Don't think a regular GP doc or psychiatrist prescribing an AD is going to say "Now wait a second, lets get your serotonin levels tested first before I decide to prescribe you an SSRI" LOL.
     
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  13. amaru7

    amaru7 Senior Member

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    Unfortunately every brain disease is very poorly understood and the treatment options never do really cure. This goes for cfs just as depression, multiple sclerosis, Alzheimer and all other brain diseases. The drugs available to us are a joke and often not effective at all.

    I did neurotransmitter testing at a cfs clinic and they were all way below normal. (Serotonin, dopamine, epinephrine, nor epinephrine, GABA and the Professor told me they do correlate with the severity of cfs in his experience and he's rarely seen such low result. Unfortunately it is not possible to get the normal state back with either drugs or natural treatments. They all failed me, but from my research this is typical in all severe brain diseases.

    The medical field just doesn't understand this organ brain still is a mystery to them.

    Tried the typical orthomolecular treatments like tyrosine for dopamine and tryptophan 5htp for serotonin, it never did anything for me and neither antidepressants did.

    of course it's about money, this goes for every industry just like it does for the 'good side' the natural health supplements industry.

    This I don't have a problem with, as long as their supplements do offer real improvements which to me they don't.

    I'd pay all my money just to regain My health and many chronic patients do.
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2015
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  14. Snow Leopard

    Snow Leopard Hibernating

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    Studies have found hugely varying incidence of comorbid depression, from 10-80%. Population based studies have found rates of around 50%, which suggests that while depression is common, depression itself is not a specific, nor sensitive indicator of CFS.

    Lastly, the lack of efficacy of SSRIs for depression (or any other symptom) in CFS patients in placebo controlled trials, suggests that the mechanisms of depression in CFS patients is different from that of other groups of the population with depression. (eg depression in CFS patients seems to be atypical in a biological sense)
     
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  15. Elph68

    Elph68 Senior Member

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    I would like to know the percentage of people who have had their serotonin levels tested prior to getting a drug that raises serotonin?

    Im not against them as they seem to help many, but i dont think they really know how they work.

    I wish they would stop calling them antidepressants but maybe serotonin boosters or noradrenaline boosters and then explain to people what these neurotransmitters can do eg serotonin reduces substance P, so one gets a serotonin booster to trying and lower substance P etc etc

    For me i think using the term depression or antidepressants are too vague a term.[/QUOTE]

    My GF was 'diagnosed' with deep depression quite some time ago (before I met her) ... she is also a mental health nurse ... And I can say without a doubt, I caught this ......

    Now here is the thing, she suffers from IBS, extreme lethargy (PEM), brain fog, memory problems, has a ridiculous hypersensitivity to smells, has a chronic throat tickle/cough, anxiety and panic attacks, and various other issues. She will not entertain the idea that she has been possibly misdiagnosed nor will she entertain the idea that her mental problems could be of bacterial origin.

    She has seen what I have been through since we have hooked up, yet can't see what she is going through ....

    I have said it in the undetectable infection thread, and I totally agree with you Heapsreal, in many cases clinical depression and ME/CFS are the same disease ...... But there is no pandemic ......
     
  16. amaru7

    amaru7 Senior Member

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    Here's a better video I'm watching now, surprisingly Peter from the band Peter, Paul and Mary is also there and describes the situation very precisely.
     
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  17. IreneF

    IreneF Senior Member

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    I have had major depressive disorder for most of my life, long pre-dating my CFS diagnosis. I was extremely depressed at the time I got the diagnosis, in fact. I've taken psychotropic drugs from A to Z and none of them helped until I got Cymbalta (duloxetine) during my third hospitalization. I've been taking it for ten years and it's done wonders.

    My mother's family has a lot of mental illness, so I'm certain that what I have is an inherited disorder. That's not true for CFS/SEID and treatments for depression do not affect CFS/SEID.

    Both diseases seem to have inflammatory aspects, and they may both provoke what's called sickness behavior, which is how you feel and what you do when you're sick, after you strip away all the disease-specific symptoms. E.g. sleeping a lot, feeling achy, not wanting to do much, etc. Many, many conditions involve inflammation so it's only to be expected that any two of them have features in common.
     
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  18. amaru7

    amaru7 Senior Member

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    Last edited: Mar 27, 2015
  19. Valentijn

    Valentijn WE ARE KINA

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    Maybe that's because the symptoms have nothing in common.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 5, 2015
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  20. SOC

    SOC

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    @amaru7, before this conversation goes much further, would you kindly define what you mean by "CFS"?
    If we're talking about ME/SEID/whatever is described by the ICC, I have to agree with this. The majority of the symptoms, and PEM in particular, have nothing to do with depression.

    If we're talking about Oxford CFS, the symptom chronic fatigue, and possibly even Fukuda CFS, then there may be a significant overlap of symptoms with MDD. Even so, that doesn't necessarily make them related diseases. They could simply be confounded because of unclear definitions that allow both ME patients and MDD patients to be included.

    MDD is a serious illness, and in many cases -- possibly all cases -- is biomedical not psychological. I have no problem acknowledging its reality and its seriousness. That doesn't mean it's the same illness as ICC-ME.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 5, 2015
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