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April 7/8 NIH State of Knowledge Conference - watch online to show our support!

Discussion in 'Media, Interviews, Blogs, Talks, Events about XMRV' started by Sasha, Apr 7, 2011.

  1. Sasha

    Sasha Fine, thank you

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    Certainly looked that way to me! If memory serves, the exchange was all Dr M defending her paper in the light of Dr C's comments, not the other way around. Amazing to me if Dr C hasn't tested his ideas of contamination against the detailed reality of what went on in the Science study.

    But there's now also the issue of Dr C's claim that XMRV orginated as a lab event between 1992 and 1996, which would presumably rule out XMRV as the sole cause of ME/CFS (too many of us got sick in the 80s). I'd have liked to have heard Dr M's critique on that - it was all happening too fast for me to remember but I don't recall her tackling him on that claim (I remember her being fully occupied defending her own study!).

    So, some communication between them both on each of their claims would be good now.

    There is a big discussion tomorrow afternoon that goes on for a couple of hours, I think - wouldn't it be great if both of them had had time to get together and iron out some of this stuff by then and present a joint position?
  2. Rrrr

    Rrrr Senior Member

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    it is almost 2 pm EDT USA, and they said they'd be back at 1:45. but i get no video feed. does anyone else see anything happening?
  3. waiting

    waiting Senior Member

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    I agree -- I said in the chat that Mikovits and Coffin need to be in a room together, perhaps with Alter. It's hard to believe that in the past year and a half, they haven't sat down to talk about this face to face.
  4. waiting

    waiting Senior Member

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    Same here -- there is a screen saying it will resume shortly
  5. Rrrr

    Rrrr Senior Member

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    okay, it is starting: 2:01 pm EDT
  6. Kate_UK

    Kate_UK Senior Member

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    It's back on now.
  7. filfla4

    filfla4 Senior Member

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    Can somebody put up the link to the Agenda please? Thanks!
  8. Rrrr

    Rrrr Senior Member

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    what did that guy just say? he was the moderator of the immunology section of the day, and he just said something about treatments and, did he say cure?, of cfs. but i missed it.

    did anyone catch it?
  9. Rrrr

    Rrrr Senior Member

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  10. filfla4

    filfla4 Senior Member

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    Thanks Rrrr...
  11. Bob

    Bob

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    Thinking about it further, I think that Coffin's attitude towards XMRV rests on a number of research studies, and I can understand where he is coming from, but I think he is premature, and is not considering all of the evidence.

    Coffin believes that XMRV was created in the prostate cancer cell line, as a recombination event, and that it was therefore highly unlikely to be created separately elsewhere (i.e. in animals or humans).

    Coffin is assuming that XMRV has never jumped from the cell line into the human population.
    This assumption is partly based on research which considered the lack of variability of the XMRV genome.

    Because he believes that XMRV was created in the cell line, and that it has never jumped to the human population (both beliefs are based on research studies) then he also believes that the positive XMRV studies are due to contamination from cell lines.

    I think that this seems like a reasonable attitude to have. But, based solely on these beliefs, he does seem to be trying to close down the XMRV research prematurely, in my opinion, especially because he is not fully informed (see below), he is not fully aware of all the possibilities (see below), and he has not considered Judy's continuing unpublished research (see below).


    Coffin's beliefs about XMRV ignores a few important and significant things that give serious doubt to his stance...

    The first is that XMRV could be spreading in the human population, not as a person to person contagion, but by some other method, such as direct or indirect exposure to the cell lines. (See Gkikas Magiorkinis' article in The Lancet.) This mode of transmission would account for the lack of genetic variability found in XMRV so far (but see the next point for more about this).

    The second is that Judy Mikovits says that she now has a wider variety of XMRV genetic data, which the research, that Coffin is basing his beliefs on, did not have access to. This wider variety of XMRV genetic data is significant, as it might demonstrate evolution of XMRV in the human population.
    So Coffin's opinions are based on the limited data of the XMRV genome to date.

    The third is Judy's continuing (unpublished) research in areas of infection response.

    The fourth is Judy's solid and repeated XMRV research that still hasn't been disproven.

    ETA. I forgot that the 22rv1 cell line has never been near Judy's lab, and she has also had samples tested at other labs. Judy has also tested every stage of her research methodology for contamination, and has never found any: XMRV has only ever shown up in the samples.
  12. ukxmrv

    ukxmrv Senior Member

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    Bob,

    Not according to Gkikas Magiorkinis in The Lancet

    (discussed in this thread http://forums.phoenixrising.me/showthread.php?10813-Lancet-Article-by-Gkikas-Magiorkinis-April-2011)

    If one young researcher argues that the genetic diversity could possibly be explained by a common source then Coffin should have been able to work this out given the data available to him.

    Someone is just plain wrong here. Too soon to know who it is.

    The response by Gkikas Magiorkinis shows that there is more than one way to look at it with the current knowledge.
  13. Bob

    Bob

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    Thanks ukxmrv.
    Yes, that was an extremelly interesting article by Gkikas Magiorkinis in The Lancet, wasn't it.
    I had actually included that important point in my discussion, in the last paragraph, but I've rewritten it slightly now, so it's clearer what I was trying to say.
  14. urbantravels

    urbantravels disjecta membra

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    Not to mention - the "contamination" theory has yet to be EXPERIMENTALLY verified. It's all theorizing now, as far as I can tell. Why on earth would we stop research now based on what are essentially unproven hypotheses?
  15. ukxmrv

    ukxmrv Senior Member

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    It stops it being so "reasonable" though doesn't it, Bob. Significant arguments against a belief make it appear less reasonable to cling onto in such a determined manner. That's just the point I am trying to make. Was Dr Coffin's belief ever based on reasonable arguments?
  16. Bob

    Bob

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    Yes, I do agree with you: It does stop being reasonable when we see that he isn't considering all of the evidence.
    I think I was trying to understand his point of view, and the point that I was trying to make is that his position isn't totally unreasonable, if it is based on some of the recent research, or based on part of the current research. He could have formed his opinions via reason, although I think there is more to it than meets the eye.
    Like I said in my earlier post, it does seem that he is trying to close down the research for reasons other than scientific curiosity.
    If he was curious, then he would 'reasonably' look at all of the research and not suggest that XMRV research is now shut down.
    His attitude does annoy me, but I was trying to present things from his point of view (if giving him the benefit of the doubt, in terms of his motivation), before explaining why he hasn't incorporated all of the possibilities and all of the research into his belief system.
    For someone in his position, we do expect a lot more, so yes, I do agree that he is being unreasonable based on all the evidence available.
  17. Bob

    Bob

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    Yes, it's all theory. Nothing has disproven Judy's original study. And nothing has proven contamination. Mikovits and Lo have done everything possible to disprove contamination in their studies, except to demonstrate DNA integration.
  18. Bob

    Bob

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    The 'experts' used to say that XMRV was not a real virus, but now they say it is a real virus.
    Then they used to say that XMRV was mouse contamination, and now they say is isn't mouse contamination.
    Now they say that XMRV is contamination from a cell line.... ... ... what will they say next?
  19. thegirlwiththedog

    thegirlwiththedog

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    Aargh! I was watching just fine for the morning session, but now I can't get the sound. I'm watching with Real PLayer. Every once in a while, the sound will pop on for a few seconds, but then it goes away again.
  20. Sasha

    Sasha Fine, thank you

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    I get a frozen screen every now and then and I go back to the NIH page and click on the link again to restart the broadcast, which works. Don't know if that might help you!

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