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Applied kinesiology?

Discussion in 'Alternative Therapies' started by Nielk, Jul 20, 2011.

  1. Gavman

    Gavman Senior Member

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    Sounds good Rmsy. Feels good when stuff clears up. I was actually able to eat lots of bad foods after seeing a NAET practitioner without adverse reactions.
    Not a good thing to continue doing but a good show of its effectiveness.
    I find it sad when people call something a scam without any kind of credibility.
    Alot of my problems came from a medical doctor who had me on roaccutane and after getting cfs, tried putting me on all types of anti-depressants, which didnt do anything but make me want to hole up. I'm no kinesiologist but talking to the body is quite an effective tool for looking after ones self.
     
  2. moblet

    moblet Unknown Quantity

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    I'm absolutely convinced that physiological burdens - and benefits - are detectable in all sorts of strange ways, I've experienced it through muscle testing, osteopaths sensing the response of the cranial rhythm, and bio-energetic machines, and been successfully treated for allergies and parasites, and been prescribed herbs, accordingly. The weakness of muscle testing (excuse the pun) is that it relies on the patient to exert, and the practitioner's ability to sense the quality of that exertion, whereas the other two are passive and eliminate one source of inaccuracy, though they remain subject to the skill of the practitioner or those who designed, built and programmed the machine. Not everyone who muscle-tested me had what I would consider to be adequate palpation skills for the task. It's also possible for a scammer to operate as a muscle tester and few patients would know the difference, other than that they would get no benefit down the track. Bottom line is it comes down to the integrity and skill of the practitioner.

    From the benefit I've had I'd definitely say to run with it if you have a good practitioner, and that in the case of parasitic infections it may take many months, even a year, before you notice much difference. You also may notice no difference if your body still has a healthy complement of burdens, as I found with the allergies - taking out a couple of allergies out of 15 or more just gave my body more energy to spend on the ones remaining, and it wasn't until all of them had been worked through that I got the full benefit. I should mention too that after my strongest allergies had been treated I then tested positive to one that had previously shown up negative, because when I was first tested my body was too overloaded to mount a response to what was a comparatively mild allergy.
     
  3. valentinelynx

    valentinelynx Senior Member

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    Forgive my ignorance, but I thought this "testing" (I do think it's a total crock) was done by having you hold a vial of the substance while the "tester" tested your strength. How could this be done with XMRV, MLV, or even EBV (or any of the other pathogens for that matter)? These things aren't readily available. Or do they just have you think about them? By the way, when she tested you for the things that you knew were positive and negative, did you know when she was "testing" for each of them?
     
  4. Esther12

    Esther12 Senior Member

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    Yeah - even if you accept their initial claims about muscle testing, I really don't see how they're testing for XMRV or anything like that. Or how they could honestly believe they were.
     
  5. moblet

    moblet Unknown Quantity

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    Where did this idea suddenly come from that the OP (or anyone else) was supposedly muscle-tested for XMRV, MLV, or indeed any virus? It doesn't appear previously in this thread.
     
  6. Esther12

    Esther12 Senior Member

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    From this post:

     
  7. moblet

    moblet Unknown Quantity

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    Ah, not the OP. A quote when taking up the issue would have been helpful :confused: Some of us have brain fog, you know!

    valentinelynx, if your mind is already closed on this subject, is there any reason for you to ask these questions, and with that tone, other than to ridicule the poster and convince yourself that you should remain ignorant? If you just want to express your opinion that it's a crock, please provide some experience to support your position and don't target fellow members who have posted here in good faith and have worthwhile experiences to share.

    The medical establishment likes to portray everything outside it as pure belief system, if and as you lose your ignorance you will see that there is a lot of science in a lot of what is currently regarded as alternative medicine, and a lot pure belief in enough of what doctors do. There is more science in the day-to-day work of many alternative practitioners I've consulted than there is in any doctor I've seen. Your questions about informing the patient of what is to be tested are standard ones used by the ignorant to convince themselves that it is a sham treatment. If you had been muscle tested for substances to which you do and don't react you would know from experience that being informed makes no difference, or at least it doesn't if you're as sceptical as I am, which is about as sceptical as you are. For the record, before I started allergy treatment I wasn't aware of what most of my allergens were, due to the number of them and being in a chronically allergic state. I was always given a calibration test with nothing and then a vial of venom at the beginning of every treatment, and rarely informed of exactly what I was being tested for, sometimes I would be asking and they'd be happy to tell me but they would be rattling through substances faster than they could explain what they all were. Sometimes my hand would tingle and/or I would feel systemically weak the moment the vial of unknown contents was placed in my hand. My allergy treatment, which was related to NAET but perhaps not exactly the same, isolated specific allergens and/or components, e.g. I was tested for a response to "trees" and having returned positive, this was narrowed down to a particular family. These are practices with a lot of at least empirical development behind them, they weren't just dreamed up over breakfast and cobbled together by morning tea.

    None of this excludes the possibility that xrunner or anyone else may have been consulting a sham practitioner. If you want to explore that possibility you are more likely to arrive at the correct conclusion if you see the modality, its practitioners, and their training, as three separate things, and frame your questions more objectively.

    xrunner, how did your kinesiologist present these viruses to your system?
     
  8. madietodd

    madietodd Senior Member

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    I'm very much in Moblet's camp about this. Dr. Teitelbaum charged $800 an hour and did nothing for me. I had 60 sessions of NAET with no results. I have done complete courses of allergy desensitization ("allergy shots") with no results.

    Certain homeopathic remedies are the only thing that will stop my stomach flus within an hour, every time.

    My chiropractor is highly trained in kineseology, and uses multiple testing techniques depending on what he's re-balancing. He's getting steady results with my mental function (fuzzy, spacey, disconnected, poor memory, etc). He doesn't use vials for this purpose.

    There are test kits that include vials with viral and bacterial signatures. I don't know if new ones like XMRV are available, but doctors can order slides/samples of almost anything, and the kit makers make copies into vials.

    It doesn't bother me that this doesn't make sense. When I hear about a local practitioner who is getting results for friends, I read up on the modality, and usually try him/her. Note that I try that specific practitioner, not just the modality. It's just like picking a doctor in a specialty.

    It doesn't bother me that not everything works for everybody. I mean, that's old news. In the hands of a talented and highy trained individual, kinesiology is a tool that gives the practitioner enormous amounts of information in moments. Then that information is translated into a rebalancing, and then the individual body on the table processes the treatment. Kinda like a doctor getting your labs, prescribing meds, and you getting some relief.......or not.
     
  9. Nielk

    Nielk

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    So far, I have been feeling better for the past three days, since seeing the Kinesiologist for four weeks. Is it just a coincidence? It's very possible. Is it a placebo effect? Too early to tell. I am very grateful though for these three days of improvement ad respite. I was climbing the walls alreaddy.
    I have no problem if others think it's a scam. Everyone is entitled to their opinion as long as it is an informed opinion with back up information because if your judgement of a treatment being a scam is by the results sown, I ould say that the whole medical establishment is a scam when it comes to M.E.
    No. I am not told what is being tested when it is done. I get tested on tons of things and am only told at the end what has shown up as a problem and shown the weakness of the muscle testing. I have showm CMV, EBV, Fungus and mold as problems. I didn't even ask about XMRV. Talking about scams, science has not proven yet beyond a shaddow of a doubt thst xmrv exists in the human body. I tend to think it does but, the proof that we are waiting for has not yet come out.
    @valentinelynx- I am a lttlw wearry when oone knows it's a crock and doesn't base it on any study or real information.
     
  10. valentinelynx

    valentinelynx Senior Member

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    Why do I think it's a crock? Because it violates our understanding of physics. Show me a good study that this bizarre process does work before charging money for it.

    To quote French mathematician and astronomer Pierre-Simon, Marquis de Laplace (1749 1827) The weight of evidence for an extraordinary claim must be proportioned to its strangeness.

    It would be strange if Applied Kinesiology did work, not so strange if it didn't. In trying to evaluate this stuff, which I would like to believe is possible, because so many others believe in it, I want more info. I really am wondering how they test for any of these viral pathogens? Do they really have XMRV, CMV, EBV in a bottle? Please explain.
     
  11. moblet

    moblet Unknown Quantity

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    According to our understanding of physics, gravity and photosynthesis are both crocks. If we try to have a theoretical argument about this we will just go around in circles. You don't question the existence of gravity, and that's because you have experienced it. I have no explanation for why muscle testing works, and neither do those who perform it, any more than a surgeon has an explanation for why the body heals towards its original state and not some random one, but having experienced what happens when holding a vial of poison, I don't question that something real is occurring, and neither do the practitioners who feel it with their own hands.

    Why?

    Stop seeing it as something that is "believed in", and something that is experienced. Better yet, experience it for yourself, because that's the best "more info" you could possibly get.
     
  12. madietodd

    madietodd Senior Member

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    Valentine - This only violates your understanding of physics. You could read some Russell Targ. He's physicist who worked for 25 years at the Stanford Research Institute, heavily funded by the CIA. Try "Limitless Mind" or "Do You See What I See?" I'm sending out his idea because you say "I would like to believe [it's] possible." I DON'T want to hijack this thread into a discussion of this stuff.

    Where's all the funding for CFS/ME? Where's all the funding for alternative medicine? There are no studies, and we all know why.

    Nielk, where are you in the clearing process? Do you take on one pathogen at a time? Or do you have to start with component parts? I'm glad to hear that something is working at the moment!!!!!
     
  13. Gavman

    Gavman Senior Member

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    Its funny when penicillin, antibiotics and cognitive behavior therapy are all researchable forms of dealing with illnesses and yet the first two at least cause more problems than they solve. Just because something is theoretically researched does not mean it serves the greater good. That said, before something becomes research tested, it is a practiced theory where people who don't believe in change jump on their band wagon to knock it down.
    I think the worst tested alternative therapy is chiropractory, from all the arrogant money-making, spine cracking know it alls who quite often cause alot of harm to structural integrity.
     
  14. Nielk

    Nielk

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    So far, he is clearing either one or two pathogens at a time but it's a cumulative approach - i.e. I keep continuing with the old, while he is adding new ones. So, at this point I have 6 items I am taking. By items, I mean oral drops. He also does a clearing for them in the office. I go once a week. It took four weeks to start feeling a difference. I hope I continue to see positive results. The items he is clearing in order is CMV, Lyme bacteria, EBV, Sinus infection, fungus and mold, Inhallant problems.
     
  15. Nielk

    Nielk

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    Update:

    I noticed that the after the past three visits, I seem to see an improvement in my condition that lasts about three days. The fourth day starts the spiraling down until I have my next visit.
    When I have a visit and he finds a pathogen by muscle testing, he desensitizes me on the spot for it. I am wondering if this helps me temporarily and then I go back to the same old.
    I guess one way to deal with this, is to go twice a week, which he suggested to begin with. I just wanted to save money by going once a week.
    I have to make a decision now whether to spend the money and go twice a week. My hesitation is, will this result down the line in an improvement that will last.
     
  16. madietodd

    madietodd Senior Member

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    Maybe try it one week and see what happens?
     
  17. Nielk

    Nielk

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  18. moblet

    moblet Unknown Quantity

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    You said this guy's a chiropractor; are you also getting spinal adjustments and/or other physical therapy at each visit? The three day relief scenario following physical therapy is very familiar to me, so it's possible this pattern is more due to the physical therapy than the kinesiology.

    As for what the cycle means and what it's telling you, in my experience such a cycle can mean that fundamental change is occurring, or it can mean that no fundamental change is occurring. In the former case an obstacle has been removed and after the change has been integrated your body has bumped into the next obstacle; by repeating the process you gradually improve. In the latter case the practitioner is never breaking through your problem and will never fix it, all they will ever do is buy you a few days of relief, which could mean either or both wrong modality or wrong practitioner.

    My suggestion is that if you've found something that can improve your condition even temporarily, and that's not usual, then try to adhere to the practitioner's preferred treatment schedule. For example, in this case it's possible that hitting you again before the last treatment has worn off is essential to locking in improvement, otherwise all they can ever do is try to bring you back to where you were a week ago. As to how long to persist for, first ask the practitioner how long they expect you to have to maintain the regime and what changes you should expect to experience. There would need to be a very very good reason for why you would not notice at least a change in your body's response pattern within a couple of months (apart from the practitioner's mortgage of course!), I suspect you are critical enough to recognise a practitioner who can't do any better than believe that they are improving your condition. For example, if after some treatments you felt worse initially but then much better a few days later, or not at all until the next treatment, or even not for weeks or months, that indicates that the pattern is changing. If it's always the same thing for months on end I'd be looking to find a practitioner/modality combination that can break through, but a key insight here is that the temporary relief with presumably no herbal or pharmaceutical input could indicate that you have a problem that is tractable.

    I also found with allergies that my responses changed after some allergies were removed, I was first tested while suffering from hay fever and dust mites showed up negative. After a series of treatments to eliminate the hay fever, I was still suffering major environmental allergy. They retested and dust mites showed up strongly. Once that was treated my environmental allergies pretty much disappeared. Likewise my chemical sensitivities didn't become apparent until my digestive allergies were treated. That "next obstacle" thing.
     
  19. Nielk

    Nielk

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    Hi Moblet,

    Thanks for your reply.
    What my chiropractor does is after he has tested me with muscle testing which pathogen is effecting me, he does some manipulation (very small) on me while I'm holding a small vial. Then he gives me drops to take home to take every day.

    How were you cleared from your allergies?
     
  20. moblet

    moblet Unknown Quantity

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    With something similar to what you're getting, but also a bit different. The first intervention was much the same, done using an accu-stim acupressure device down the spine while holding the offending vials and breathing deeply. The principle here is that your body has developed the allergy/sensitivity by association - it associates exposure with feeling weakened - and this very simple intervention convinces the nervous system that it can be exposed and feel strong at the same time.

    It this works, it works instantly. The problem is that this alone, doesn't hold. The allergy will return. I am guessing that your practitioner is following up this kinesthetic treatment with a conventional homeopathic allergy remedy, the latter being all that a homeopath would do. Combining the two approaches presumably helps the treatment hold.

    I got treated in two separate phases a couple of years apart (the first lot for environmentals, the second lot for digestives and chemicals) by what I think is represented here in your part of the world, and between those phases the clinic had altered its method of trying to make the treatment hold. The first time they had some electromagnetic mat on the treatment table that they fired up after doing the acupressure. The second time, by which time I had noticed a couple of my environmental allergies returning, they said that they'd realised this was happening and had adopted a completely different method.

    What they do now is start with the regular acupressure treatment, then they do a second round of testing with a set of vials representing the body's different organ systems (the Chinese medical ones, I believe). When they do this, they will find that one or more organ systems will still react to the allergen. They identify which organ system(s) react and repeat the treatment with the patient additionally holding a vial for the organ system.

    In my case I don't seriously expect all these treatments to hold while my physiology remains fluffed up, since if my body's distressed it's perfectly placed to learn new weakening associations with anything it's exposed to. But it's two years since the second phase and they've held pretty well.

    Back to your case, if your guy has to treat you again for the same thing within weeks or months, his method isn't holding for you. If he's constantly finding additional things you're reacting to, and you're getting a three-day burst after each one I'd keep going back until either I felt better, he couldn't find anything else wrong, or I had to conclude I was allergic to absolutely everything and trying to solve it that way was futile. I must have had about 20 allergies/sensitivities (including to my own digestive enzymes!), nothing to do but plough through them until there are none left to find. Clearing them didn't solve all my problems, but it has made my other problems easier - and hopefully possible - for other modalities to solve.
     

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