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Anyone Trying Niagen?

Discussion in 'General Treatment' started by pone, Jun 1, 2014.

  1. pone

    pone

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    The points below run the risk of being a little obscure to some of you, but this issue strikes me as one that should be among the top three discussions in a CFS forum. Yet, no one here is discussing this. No one is experimenting with Niagen. How can this be?

    Read point number one of 10 by James Watson in this article:

    http://www.anti-agingfirewalls.com/...list-of-things-i-learned-about-aging-in-2013/

    The number one anti-aging story of 2013 was that "...mitochondrial dysfunction and...Warburg-type metabolism are fully reversible with the supplementation of NAD+ precursors."

    Cancer is the ultimate expression of a cell that is fueled by glucose, and does not need mitochondria. CFS is similar however, because somehow the mitochondria are not functioning well, and the cell is being forced to rely on glucose metabolism. Because that is inefficient, many metabolic processes run out of energy.

    Cancer is a special case because the mitochondria get permanently damaged and basically the cell takes on a metabolism that no longer needs mitochondria. But CFS involves cells with mitochondria that are still intact. In theory, CFS might respond very well to the generation of more NAD+.

    This is the key point. By whatever means (still not determined), the cells of the CFS sufferer are relying on glucose metabolism, and insufficient NAD+ is produced. Insufficient NAD+ means insufficient ATP production. Insufficient ATP means many cellular processes run too slowly to be effective.

    What is exciting about the Watson article is that he is saying we may have chemical ways to reverse this NOW. Watson points out that there are two precursors to NAD+

    1) A precursor that is one step away from NAD+ named NMN, but this is very expensive and not available.

    2) A precursor that is two steps away from NAD+ named Nicotinamide Riboside (NR). Proprietary name is Niagen. I found a supplier online and it is not cheap, but if it works who wouldn't pay it?

    Watson quotes a study by David Sinclair at Harvard in which mice were given NMN, and all of their age-related defects in NAD+ production reversed, quickly. He points out that there are no experiments with Niagen, but he wonders if this won't have the same effect.

    Questions:

    1) Have any of you experimented with Niagen / NR, and what was the result?

    2) What is the recommended dose for a CFS sufferer? Does it need to be spread out over the day, to support metabolism continuously, or can the body buffer a single dose?

    3) Is it necessary to take NR together with other specific vitamins, in order to prevent other B vitamins to be dysregulated?

    4) Is there any way to profile our blood cell profile of NAD+, NADH, and the levels of chemicals and enzymes in the pathway(s) that create NAD+?

    I see NR / Niagen mentioned in only a few threads here. I'm shocked that this isn't a much bigger topic. This holds out potential to be a cure.
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2014
  2. Little Bluestem

    Little Bluestem Senescent on the Illinois prairie, USA

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    You're right, most of this is too obscure for me, but we are suffering from more than an age-related decline in metabolic effeciency.
  3. pone

    pone

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    That's missing the point. The disease we have seems to downregulate NAD+ production, which leads to all kinds of problems creating ATP. The Watson article is suggesting ways we can fix the NAD+ problem quickly and easily.
  4. stevesayshi

    stevesayshi

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    I will report my experiences when my order arrives, should be as soon as tomorrow.
  5. Ema

    Ema Senior Member

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    I'm sure that part of the reason that it's not discussed much is because it is very expensive to get up to the doses used in the studies.

    I have not noticed any improvements from taking it but also have a lot of other things going on at the moment. I haven't written it off completely but rather set it aside to try again later.
  6. pone

    pone

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    What kind of doses were you taking? Was it niacinamide?
  7. stevesayshi

    stevesayshi

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    I took a gram (8 caps) today.

    It did... something. I was furious all day -- but it was like the old fire in my body was turned back on. I was hot in cold rooms, like I was, hell, I want to say before I got sick, but really even further back than that. I decided to go to a casino and play poker like I used to (since I got sick, the most I could manage was about an hour without a mini crash). I felt immune to any adrenaline rush and played for 6 hours. Will take 1 gram tomorrow and let you know how it goes.

    Many people on longecity report severe fatigue after taking large doses for several days, ha ha I'd love to see that.

    Edit: I don't think it will be a *cure*. Seemed to have no impact on non-fatigue symptoms. May take a lot longer to reverse those. Muscle pain in particular was bad today.
  8. rwac

    rwac Senior Member

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    Niacinamide lowers free fatty acids, and increases dependency on carbs. I wonder if that muscle pain isn't muscle being sacrificed to keep you burning carbs, assuming NR works similarly to niacinamide.

    I wonder if people who crash on NR aren't low carbing.
  9. pone

    pone

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    Are you sure what you are experiencing as muscle pain isn't just some acid from exercise that is not clearing from the muscle?
  10. Ema

    Ema Senior Member

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    I was just taking whatever the label recommended for Niagen. I can't remember offhand how much it was - 250 mg maybe?
  11. pone

    pone

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    In reading about this some more: "...excess niacin (B3) is metabolized by methylation and thus uses up methyl groups. So if you are an over-methylator, meaning you have extra, then B3 is good because it uses them up, but if you are an under-methylator, meaning deficient, then giving extra B3 is bad because it drains an already poor supply."

    That seems to imply we shouldn't try to solve the NAD+ creation problem in isolation. We need to understand our MTHFR defects and our methylation status and fit the NAD+ supplementation into that bigger picture.

    In my own case, I have high homocysteine. That suggests a possible methylation issue, and taking niacinamide in high doses might stress my system even more and send my homocysteine even higher.
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2014
  12. stevesayshi

    stevesayshi

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    I don't believe NR uses up methyl groups in the same way niacin does. Could be wrong. Have no idea what my methylation status is. I believe I was probably low for a long time and have now entered some wild swing between high and low. Is muscle pain associated with under or overmethylation? Speaking of which, I used to think it was lactic acid but not so sure now.

    Day 2. Not angry today. It's clear this does more for my mental energy than physical.
  13. john66

    john66 Senior Member

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    I bought some a month ago and reordered it. It seems to help with a more awake and on-feeling. One of the very few supplements that has done anything. Very expensive. They have a group buy effort going on at Longecity, which lowers the price. J
  14. Tired of being sick

    Tired of being sick Senior Member

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    By reading customer reviews on Amazon, this is more of an ADD,cognitive supplement..

    All the reviews seem to be healthy people before they started Niagen...

    So I doubt that it can do us much good...

    Actually this reminds me of the big craze over Focus Factor in the early 2000's..

    Yes I tried it to no avail......
  15. pone

    pone

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    One of the primary theories about CFS is that it is a failure of aerobic metabolism. Your muscles are stuck burning glucose anaerobically, and acid is a key byproduct of that.
  16. stevesayshi

    stevesayshi

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    So far so good. Muscle pain is back down to pre niagen levels. I am aware of the lactic acid connection - and things like baking soda help sometimes - but I think my pain at rest stems more from the original infection, a viral myositis, as 2 coworkers got I'll with similar symptoms at the same time. I was under severe mental and emotional stress, not to mention a month of ~ 2 hrs sleep, so while their symptoms resolved mine worsened. Doctors say stress will make you sick, until you claim that stress made you sick, and then they laugh and prescribe benzos (This was just over 6 months ago, yay I guess, I finally qualify for CFS)

    My emotional state remains volatile. I still have a lot of grief to work through about being reduced to 20% the mental and physical capacity I had last year and I wonder if this stuff is giving me the energy to feel emotions that had otherwise been deadened.
  17. LifeBBQ

    LifeBBQ

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    Hi All, I started taking Naigen 3 days ago, my 3rd pill today morning. I can't really tell if I am noticing much change over such a short period of time, but I stay positive and keep my expectations and hopes high for now. Why not to try new things that supposedly are healthy with no side effects? As of now, I plan to post daily on my blog, that I never really used before. It's just for my own reference mostly, cause that if it would really wok, right, and I want be able to recognize myself any more:)? That would all I would have left from he old me! If interested, check it out: lifebbq.blogspot.com
  18. vastmandana

    vastmandana

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    Hi, all... just joined to post on this. Stevesayshi, , lots of people at Longecity are NOT reporting fatigue as you stated earlier.... One person did and it was temporary, possible a methylation issue. Personally I just started NR today having purchased 16 bottles while I had a bit of extra funds. As I'm 64 with lots of aches (gardening is a physical endevour) I will post here periodically on my experience.

    I just read LifeBBQ's blog and it sounded exhilarating but stopped at day 10... I hope BB goes back to chronicling.
  19. knackers323

    knackers323 Senior Member

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    This sounds interesting
  20. undcvr

    undcvr Senior Member

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    i've been trying it to no obvious results I'm at 4 caps a day so that is 500 gm a day. This is not niacinamide, its niacinamide(nicotinamide) riboside so it already has the ribose sugar bonded to it. It is a few enzymatic steps ahead of niacinamide to NADH so it does not work like niacinamide, it does not quench over methylation. NADH is a proven supplement in the CFS community which gives you a HUGE clue to which of our processes are broken.
    The question is: for someone with CFS whether or not our enzymatic steps from NR to NADH are too broken or poisoned becos once you get to NADH (enada) as the supplement itself many pple with CFS find some relief and energy from it. The dosage is telling, 250mg (per dose on the bottle) of NR as compared to 5mg of Enada to get any sort of physical or mental energy, it gives you an idea of how much NR is wasted or used up in other processes to get you even a small amt of NADH. For now I am sticking with NADH.
    The company behind Niagen has a history of over-hyping their products so I would not really believe everything you read from them esp if it is by David Sinclair, he was part of the sirtuin controversy at one point and is now back with this product.
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2014

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