Severe ME Day of Understanding and Remembrance: Aug. 8, 2017
Determined to paper the Internet with articles about ME, Jody Smith brings some additional focus to Severe Myalgic Encephalomyelitis Day of Understanding and Remembrance on Aug. 8, 2017 ...
Discuss the article on the Forums.

Anyone Know Their VO2Max?

Discussion in 'Post-Exertional Malaise, Fatigue, and Crashes' started by pemone, Mar 5, 2015.

  1. pemone

    pemone Senior Member

    Messages:
    423
    Likes:
    191
    I am wondering how many of you have gone to an exercise physiology lab and gotten a measurement of your VO2 Max? The test measures how much oxygen you breath in and how much CO2 you breath out as they steadily increase your workload during exercise. The point at which there is a surge of CO2 and the CO2 exhaled exceeds O2 going in you have reached your VO2 Max. Basically this is a measurement of the maximum amount of oxygen you can utilize during exercise.

    I compared my number against a population study of VO2Max numbers, and I was the single lowest data point in a population study of about 200 people! It put real tangible proof to my claims of fatigue and it's an interesting conversation piece to shove in the face of a physician who is hinting you might be making it all up. I recommend you all get this test done, not only to quantify your level of exercise intolerance, but also to have a "get out of jail free" report to shove in the face of the next moron who says nothing is wrong with you.

    In addition to being curious what kinds of VO2Max numbers other people who get post exertional malaise (PEM) are getting, does anyone know of a good population study on CFS sufferers that shows their typical measured VO2Max?
     
    Noah GB likes this.
  2. Sushi

    Sushi Senior Member Albuquerque

    Messages:
    14,330
    Likes:
    21,476
    Albuquerque
    You might like to look at this thread.

    Sushi
     
  3. Sherlock

    Sherlock tart cherry etc. for joints, insomnia

    Messages:
    1,229
    Likes:
    679
    Czechosherlockia, USA
    There's also some test that measures anaerobic threshold, which many/most here are low on.
     
  4. pemone

    pemone Senior Member

    Messages:
    423
    Likes:
    191
    I think that is the same test? The point is when you go into full on glycolysis there is a sudden surge of CO2 and you no longer are able to use more oxygen to provide energy. VO2Max marks that point in time. Anerobic Threshold is the point where you start to use glycolysis but you still have some remaining capacity to use more oxygen in aerobic metabolism.

    Dr Shallenberger has a book on ozone therapy that has a chapter on his Bio Energy test that goes into these ideas in more detail. Pages 40-42 have a fascinating discussion on how you can calculate exactly what percentage of your energy production comes from fat and glucose during each part of the treadmill test, based on just the ratio of CO2 to O2 in respiration. Sadly, Shallenberger's test results don't expose that information, so you would have to re-enter all of his treadmill data into a spreadsheet and do your own calculations.
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2015
    Noah GB likes this.
  5. Doublepush

    Doublepush

    Messages:
    21
    Likes:
    8
    I just took a VO2 test using the Aerolution test. With this test one can also see how much carbohydrates and fats you are burning at different levels of effort.

    I have been sick now for 1,5 years. My sickness is quite mild and I have been able to work full time for the whole time besides some very bad PEM days in bed. Lately I have been much better to point I have been thinking about recovery/remission.

    Anyway My VO2Max was 53. The heart rate curve was very normal. We also did test how my body reacts after the peak effort. The heart rate went down normally and also the fat consumption went from 0 at the peak to 58% at moderate intensity. I did not even have a PEM in the next two days. I think my VO2Max was something between 65-70 before getting sick. So VO2Max is quite normal for me taking in account that I have not done aerobic exercise for 1,5 year.

    But I did actually get PEM. It is later than usually and not as strong. On monday I did try to lift some weights but had no energy to do that. On wednesday I was feeling little fatigued but thought some fresh air would do good so I went out and run 2 km in 15 minutes. Not a good idea! My heart rate was 160 on avarage and I welt sick afterwards. Now I have had PEM for two days with brain fog, weak muscles, eye focusing problems and joint and muscle pain. I should have taken the VO2Max test again now to see how much lower it would be but I think it is too dangerous.
     
    panckage and Scarecrow like this.
  6. pemone

    pemone Senior Member

    Messages:
    423
    Likes:
    191
    Your VO2Max at 53 is not only not a bad result, but would put you in the category of an endurance trained athlete. See the graphs in Figure 1 of this study:
    http://jap.physiology.org/content/94/6/2406

    That graph is something everyone on this site should print out and then plot their VO2Max number against. It lets you know just how sick you are against a normal population.

    I don't doubt any of your symptoms, but with certainty this VO2Max number says that your mitochondria perform aerobic metabolism very well. The source of your symptoms must be something else besides a failure in electron transport chain, and it doesn't sound like a mitochondrial or metabolic disorder, at least that is not the *primary* disorder.

    Have you been screened by an endocrinologist for high adrenalin? The high pulse after exercise is interesting. Do you get rapid or irregular heartbeats in the days after exercise? Have you tested your blood glucose one and two hours after starchy carb meals? It would be interesting to see if that postprandial glucose gets worse in days after exercise. If it does, that might further implicate adrenalin.

    Have you had a dietary change around the time the symptoms began? Any chance you went low carb?
     
  7. Doublepush

    Doublepush

    Messages:
    21
    Likes:
    8
    I know that 53 is okey. But I have been running and cycling quite much my whole life and also competing in those sports. My performance drops significantly on the next days. Running 7,5 min/km at a heart rate of 160 when on the exercise test I would run similar space with a heart rate of 135. I think that the drop in VO2Max is more significant than what the actual first result is.

    I have been diagnosed with CFS and post viral syndrome. However, I would gladly take any other diagnose. I realise that I'm not as sick as most people on this forum. Still I have most of the same symptoms. 10 years ago I was sick with the same thing for two years but never got a diagnosis for it. Then I was fine for eight years with the exception of flu-like symptoms from time to time. I would always say to my doctor wife that I have a flu. Then she would just said that I do not have a flu as I do not have any of the normal flu symptoms like sore throat. But I would have muscle pain and feeling weak just like when having a bad flu.

    My PEM can get quite bad. One other diagnose I have been thinking about is Lyme. However my Lyme test was negative. People with Lyme seems to have the same problems with aerobic exercise.

    I have not been tested for high adrenalin. I do get wired for a while after exercise before the real PEM. I have heart palpitations and rapid heartbeats sometimes. I have only tested morning glucose. I will test it after meals and exercise.

    I have always eaten quite much carbs. Now that I have been sick I have been avoiding sugar and refined carbohydrates.

    No changes in diet when I got sick. I only worked and trained a lot and then after a marathon I got sick.
     
    panckage likes this.
  8. pemone

    pemone Senior Member

    Messages:
    423
    Likes:
    191
    Can you get a second VO2Max done for the day after your heavy exercise? You would need to test day one before exhaustion and day two after your exhaustion symptoms develop. Actually seeing a steep drop in VO2Max would be important to getting some fix on what in you is broken.

    Lyme is certainly worth pursuing.

    Do you eat much fish? Have you ever taken high doses of alpha lipoic acid (ALA), which might be a hidden ingredient in an antioxidant formula, or in a liposomal vitamin C.
     
    Valentijn and helen41 like this.
  9. Doublepush

    Doublepush

    Messages:
    21
    Likes:
    8
    I could do that. VO2Max testing is not quite cheap and I'm worried about what to tests in row might cause.

    I am going to order some tests from Infectolab or Nordic Labs to see if those tests would reveal something. I don't actually know what borrelia test I have had but I think it is a EIA test.

    I eat fish quite often but I eat salmon only once a week. Lately I have been taking some ALA. On the nutreval test mercury was a little elevated (0,0067mcg/g, reference range 0,0039mcg/g).

    I did not take much supplements before getting sick.
     
  10. pemone

    pemone Senior Member

    Messages:
    423
    Likes:
    191
    I'm actually thinking of buying a cheap VO2Max tester and using it at home. Once you understand the underlying physiology of how CO2 and O2 balances in different conditions, it can be a very cheap and quick diagnostic for mitochondrial function.

    I'm not an expert in lyme, but normally this is done through a doctor that specializes in it. I don't think it is an area that lends to self-diagnosis.

    I'm confused by those units for a blood serum test. Normally a dose per *gram* would be a unit seen on a urine test, and the "per gram" is "per gram of creatinine". What does mcg/g even mean on a blood serum test? I would expect to see units in part per billion or ng/mL (in other words, the bottom part of the fraction is a volume measurement, not a concentration gradient adjustment).

    I'll send you my experience with alpha lipoic acid by email. I don't think anyone should take it in high doses if they have elevated mercury. It transforms in the blood to a very effective two-thiol heavy-metal chelator that passes the blood brain barrier and goes into mitochondria. It's a great way to make a benign high level of mercury in blood became a full-blown case of mercury poisoning.
     
  11. Sea

    Sea Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,268
    Likes:
    2,650
    NSW Australia
    What is this tester?
     
  12. pemone

    pemone Senior Member

    Messages:
    423
    Likes:
    191
    Exercise physiologists do VO2Max testing by measuring the amount of O2 you breathe in and the amount of CO2 you exhale. There are well defined relationships between these two that tell you worlds about your aerobic metabolism, and therefore implicitly about your mitochondrial health.
     
  13. Sea

    Sea Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,268
    Likes:
    2,650
    NSW Australia
    I understand the test, I've done one (or 3 actually). What I was specifically asking about is the "cheap tester" you said you might get. What is that? I am only aware of the expensive equipment that labs have.
     
  14. pemone

    pemone Senior Member

    Messages:
    423
    Likes:
    191
    I haven't bought it yet, and once I get it I will probably have to spend close to $1K to get it refurbished, so it's not looking cheap any more.
     
  15. Doublepush

    Doublepush

    Messages:
    21
    Likes:
    8
    I think it is "mcg/g creatinine" but the Nutreval test just show it as mcg/g. There are many people on this forum who has taken Nutreval test so maybe someone can comment about the units.
     
  16. pemone

    pemone Senior Member

    Messages:
    423
    Likes:
    191
    Mcg/g creatinine should be for a urine test? Was your test serum?
     
  17. Doublepush

    Doublepush

    Messages:
    21
    Likes:
    8
  18. pemone

    pemone Senior Member

    Messages:
    423
    Likes:
    191
    Wow that's a megatest. The toxic metals section is marked as "RBC" so that does imply blood. Do you have a contact in customer support at Nutraval that you could ask about the units in that test? It is micrograms per gram OF WHAT? And where on the report do they give the concentration of the WHAT...?
     
  19. Valentijn

    Valentijn Senior Member

    Messages:
    14,281
    Likes:
    45,811
    My VO2max was 11.9, as of a year ago.

    But it's probably actually a bit lower, as the calculations rely upon having a resting heart rate. But my "resting" heart rate was unnaturally elevated due to having been sitting up and walking around for quite a while.
     
  20. Gamboa

    Gamboa Senior Member

    Messages:
    258
    Likes:
    468
    Canada
    Hi all,

    I have had my VO2max, Anaerobic Threshold etc tested by Dr.Betsy Keller at Ithaca. She follows the protocol developed by the Pacific Fatigue Lab(?) that was the original 2 day CPET test protocol for ME/CFS patients and has written a/some papers regarding ME/CFS and PEM. She is now becoming one of our best ME/CFS research docs.

    From what I understand, it is all very complicated and complex to calculate the VO2max and other things and requires quite a bit of data, a lot of equipment that is set up in a precise way. I did the 2 days of testing but Dr Keller could not just look at the data immediately and say what was wrong. It all had to be analyzed in a certain way ( don't ask me how or what).

    Last summer I did another 2 day CPET protocol, this time at the Ottawa Heart Institute. It was a trial run by Dr. B Hyde and Dr. Keller to see if they could get a 2 day CPET test procedure started here for ME/CFS patients. Once again, it was not just a matter of doing the tests and looking at the data on the screens and printouts. Since this was a research/test trial I have never received the final calculated results that Dr. Keller came up with for my test. I only have the printouts from the machines.

    Dr. Keller and other exercise physiologists also calculate METS from all the data which tells you how much work you can actually do. This is a key piece of information and really shows how disabled one is.

    Another type of testing that I have had done that I think we should all get done is mitochondrial testing. Anything from lactate levels before and after exercise to creatine kinase levels can show abnormal muscle/mitochondrial function. I have had a bit more testing than that and have quite a lot of mitochondrial dysfunction show up. This directly correlates with a poor CPET test. I have a low AT and go into anaerobic metabolism early, producing a lot of CO2 in the CPET test. This shows up as high lactate in a biochemical test (urine and blood). I also have abnormal spilling of Krebs cycle metabolites in my urine. This indicates mitochondrial dysfunction and an inability to make ATP properly.

    I am actually going to be referred to a mitochondrial specialist next.

    In the meantime, I am planning on getting some more testing done by Dr. Sarah Myhill in the UK. I don't have the link offhand but check out her site regarding mitochondrial dysfunction and ME. It all ties in with reduced aerobic performance.
     
    Noah GB likes this.

See more popular forum discussions.

Share This Page