Anyone else have a massive improvement from Tyrosine?

[andyguitar]

Sounds like you have been looking at the same areas of research that I have. Very interesting stuff. My conclusions are that yes there is a relationship between levels of serotonin/dopamine in the brain and ME, CFS and Fibromyalga but the key to all this lies elsewhere. I would put my money on the abnormalities in the levels of both in the GI tract and circulatory system.

 

[drob31]

Sounds like you have been looking at the same areas of research that I have. Very interesting stuff. My conclusions are that yes there is a relationship between levels of serotonin/dopamine in the brain and ME, CFS and Fibromyalga but the key to all this lies elsewhere. I would put my money on the abnormalities in the levels of both in the GI tract and circulatory system.

Can you give any more insight into this?

I notice I have "stomach" issues, possibly GI Tract issues, and also circulatory issues (vasoconstriction after eating leading to cold fingers), but vasodilation resumes after digestion is finished, and fingers warm back up.

 

[andyguitar]

Ok Drob31 it goes like this: Something causes elevated levels of serotonin in the blood. Platletes clump together causing vasoconstriction. Levels of seroronin also rise in the GI tract. Again this causes constriction and GI problems. The serotonon in the blood is transported via the blood to the central nervous system. This is what causes the most of the other symptoms.Why does this happen? BIG question but from what i know it may well be a result of some of you having lower than average levels of the enzyme Mono Amine Oxidise. Or it might be something to do with the transporter for serotonin. This is called SERT. It can be blocked which might result in serotonin remaining in some places longer than it should. This then causes some receptors for it becoming over active.

 

[Billt]

Wheww some smart people on here.. Wealth of info. I will try to understand. For my simple mind, seems you can't have to much of one thing. must have balance.

Great thread !!!

 

[drob31]

Ok Drob31 it goes like this: Something causes elevated levels of serotonin in the blood. Platletes clump together causing vasoconstriction. Levels of seroronin also rise in the GI tract. Again this causes constriction and GI problems. The serotonon in the blood is transported via the blood to the central nervous system. This is what causes the most of the other symptoms.Why does this happen? BIG question but from what i know it may well be a result of some of you having lower than average levels of the enzyme Mono Amine Oxidise. Or it might be something to do with the transporter for serotonin. This is called SERT. It can be blocked which might result in serotonin remaining in some places longer than it should. This then causes some receptors for it becoming over active.

Interesting, but digestion would be a component of all this, right?

Digestion enzymes seem to fatigue me, maybe because of the breakdown into tryptophan based on the enzymes?

Theoretically, couldn't we just take L-DOPA, or tyrosine and boost tyrozine hydroxylase?

 

[drob31]

Ok Drob31 it goes like this: Something causes elevated levels of serotonin in the blood. Platletes clump together causing vasoconstriction. Levels of seroronin also rise in the GI tract. Again this causes constriction and GI problems. The serotonon in the blood is transported via the blood to the central nervous system. This is what causes the most of the other symptoms.Why does this happen? BIG question but from what i know it may well be a result of some of you having lower than average levels of the enzyme Mono Amine Oxidise. Or it might be something to do with the transporter for serotonin. This is called SERT. It can be blocked which might result in serotonin remaining in some places longer than it should. This then causes some receptors for it becoming over active.

Also maybe the real reason for improvement when taking things like Vitamin C and Vitamin D isn't immune regulation, but up regulation of tyrosine hydroxylase. (since both potently increase it).

 

[andyguitar]

Digestive enzymes can cause gastric irritation. The points you raise about L-DOPA tyrosine vit C and D maybe part of the story here but my conclusions are this- and i will keep this simple: I believe ME, and some of the symptoms from other illnesses covered by this website, are caused by a metabolic blood disorder. I am going to name this disorder Hydroxytrptamine Transport Disorder. HTD. My opinion is that the symptoms are caused by elevated levels of 5 Hydoxytrptamine (SEROTONIN) in the blood. Cont.

 

[andyguitar]

As the blood circulates the elevated serotonin cause the under and over stimulation of the receptors for it. If you or your blood relatives have any of the following this maybe your problem: Chillblanes, Reynaulds, Cluster Headaches, Migraine, Vertigo. Sound like you? If i had HTD i would only take a low dose multi vit/min Tab, fish oil and the herb Cats Claw- 300mg 3 times a day with food. I have serious doubts about the theory "It's a virus/ immune system dysfunction" It dont add up. I will be back here Monday.

 

[drob31]

As the blood circulates the elevated serotonin cause the under and over stimulation of the receptors for it. If you or your blood relatives have any of the following this maybe your problem: Chillblanes, Reynaulds, Cluster Headaches, Migraine, Vertigo. Sound like you? If i had HTD i would only take a low dose multi vit/min Tab, fish oil and the herb Cats Claw- 300mg 3 times a day with food. I have serious doubts about the theory "It's a virus/ immune system dysfunction" It dont add up. I will be back here Monday.

I think this is a good theory but I think there are many different causes for CFS/ME. I think the NT hypothesis fits the hpa-axis dysfunction model.

Also I'm reading this phenomena occurring from things like stress trigger + accutain or stress + finasteride, or other drugs that alter DA concentrations in the brain. It's almost like re-wiring the brain incorrectly, and constant stress will not allow it to switch back.

 

[andyguitar]

Serotonin can spike due to: Infection, stress, physical injury, many drugs, some nutritional supplements and herbs, some foods, many illnesses, inflammation, bright light and loud noise.Some of these factors are often cited as what started the illness. So what I am saying is that although there are many causes they all cause a spike in Serotonin. This leads to biochemical chaos which continues long after the first spike. I may be wrong. But what if I am right?

 

[Starfive]

What about the fatigue, overall weakness, low cognitive function, and excruciating pain all over the body. Serotonin spike the cause of these symptoms also??

 

[andyguitar]

I will keep a very complex subject as simple as possible. Yes Serotonin spike can cause the symptoms you mention. At low levels Serotonin is a stimulant. At higher levels it inhibits. If for any reason levels rise OR it is not being removed from many different areas it will seriously mess you up. I realise that this is a difficult idea for many to get their heads round but I would not be saying this unless I was 75% certain I was correct. OK I am a musician so how could one of them possibly work out something that medical science has failed to for about 70 years? There is a lot more to music than entertainment! Some of our brains are wired up to look for patterns. It is that ability that has given me the tools to work this out.

 

[drob31]

I will keep a very complex subject as simple as possible. Yes Serotonin spike can cause the symptoms you mention. At low levels Serotonin is a stimulant. At higher levels it inhibits. If for any reason levels rise OR it is not being removed from many different areas it will seriously mess you up. I realise that this is a difficult idea for many to get their heads round but I would not be saying this unless I was 75% certain I was correct. OK I am a musician so how could one of them possibly work out something that medical science has failed to for about 70 years? There is a lot more to music than entertainment! Some of our brains are wired up to look for patterns. It is that ability that has given me the tools to work this out.

Your model fits the central fatigue hypothesis from the bodybuilding world. High serotonin, low dopamine, dysregulated HPA-axis, post exersize fatigue, etc.

 

[andyguitar]

This sounds interesting. Not so sure about the dopamine involvement. The most interesting part of trying to relate central fatigue theory to ME is the question of why the fatigue persists in ME. From what i know so far I am pointing the finger at a problem with the Serotonon transporter SERT. Perhaps it is not clearing Serotonin away so there is a chronic excess at the synapse. So how about something inhibiting SERT?

 

[andyguitar]

Something I forgot to mention: The drug Heparin seems to have given some temporary relief. The theory being that people with ME have thick blood, and as Heparin is a blood thinner it will help. Part of the reason I concluded ME is a blood disorder is that Heparin thins blood by acting as a Serotonin antagonist. Interestingly it is impossible for that drug to be acting directly on the brain as it does not cross the blood brain barrier. Which blows away the theory that ME is a problem of the mind/brain. So although I believe the hypothesis from the world of body building is partly correct I will be sticking to my idea that problems with Serotonin levels in the blood are the starting point. We can crack this people!!

 

[Starfive]

What do you recommend for testing? How do you figure out dose of Heparin? Thanks.

 

[andyguitar]

I have not been able to find a reliable test for Serotonin levels. For Heparin treatment you need to consult a properly trained and registered medical Doctor. As i live in the UK i dont know how the medical system in the USA works so cant advise you on where to go or how to go about getting the right advice. If you want a few suggestions about things that might be helpful in improving your health I will be happy to help in anyway I can. But I would need to know a few things about your health and what treatment you are having. Why not start a conversation? Keeps things private then.

 

[Learner1]

I have not been able to find a reliable test for Serotonin levels. For Heparin treatment you need to consult a properly trained and registered medical Doctor. As i live in the UK i dont know how the medical system in the USA works so cant advise you on where to go or how to go about getting the right advice.

In the US, its easy to get a LabCorp test for neurotransmitters. A Genova Diagnostics NutrEval can tell you if you have all the cofactors for neurotransmitter production.

And a functional medicine doctor, which could be an MD, ND, DC, DO, or ARNP should be able to help.

One day, I found myself lying on the couch, unable to motivate myself to move. My naturopathic doctor suggested taking 6g of tyrosine, which instantly perked me up, after I tested low for dopamine and tyrosine.

Somewhere, some of these researchers found that we tend to be low in dopamine.

500mg of tyrosine is not enough to do much for me. I still need 3g daily and mood and motivation are fine.

Amino acids are important. We seem to go through them, so supplementing them is not a bad idea. Robert Erdman's book, The Amino Revolution, while older, is a good beginning primer on using aminos. I got a copy for $1 on Amazon. Julia Ross has some good ideas, too.

 

[Gondwanaland]

Heparin thins blood by acting as a Serotonin antagonist.

I have a suspicion Heparin disrupts homones just like Finasteride does. Not a fun joke.

 

[joejack102]

It seems to cut through brain fog and fatigue like a knife through butter. I have to wonder if it's possible to be tyrosine deficient if you have malabsorption issues?

Could it be modulating the immune system somehow?

I used it and felt great at first. I thought it cured me. And then I crashed HARD after several days. All of a sudden I got severe chills and overall nerve pain. Had to leave work and it took time to recover. Definitely be cautious with how much you use and be patient if you want to try it. Please be safe. I don’t plan on ever using it again.