1. Patients launch $1.27 million crowdfunding campaign for ME/CFS gut microbiome study.
    Check out the website, Facebook and Twitter. Join in donate and spread the word!
Give ME the Money
Graham McPhee spells out some of the cold, hard facts about the dismal state of ME research and politics, and has some suggestions as to what we can do about it ...
Discuss the article on the Forums.

Any thoughts on my dropping BP and temp please?

Discussion in 'Autonomic, Cardiovascular, and Respiratory' started by mermaid, Nov 15, 2013.

  1. mermaid

    mermaid Senior Member

    Messages:
    165
    Likes:
    132
    Cornwall, UK
    I am trying to track down why my BP and temp has dropped so much suddenly. Maybe I should be in the hormones section as it's possible it's down to that but I will post here and see what people think.

    I am keeping quite close track of my BP/HR and temp as I am on T3/liothyronine only since Feb, and at one point was also doing Paul Robinson's circadian rhythm trial for the adrenals. However I had a saliva test back in July with a high first of the day result and therefore this was contraindicated.

    Since then during October I had a lot of stress with toothache, needing antibiotics (first in 25 yrs), and then an extraction (24th) which didn't go well and needed 3 lots of anaesthetic (local). I have felt pretty bad since, first with a week's flare of an autoimmune skin condition (now calmed down).

    However, during this time my BP and temp was not too bad, and I carried on with the same dose of thyroid meds. In the last few weeks however I have eased up slowly one of my doses but only by 5mcg. Since about a week ago my BP and Temp have been falling. I did have a very bad patch of fatigue and brain fog last week but that is now improved, just the BP and temp still low.

    For example, one evening this week I took my BP and it was 94/49 which I think is the lowest diastolic I have ever recorded. I was a bit dizzy a week ago, but now I am not, and today I went out, and was doing quite a bit of activity for a couple of hours. I took it when I got in and it was only 88/51 with a temp of 36.2, and pulse was actually quite low for me after all that movement at 74. I am 61, and have had low BP as long as I can remember, but it's gone down by about 10 points at the moment.

    I am also having a lot more muscle pain especially as I wake.

    Is this likely to be all down to the adrenals? I am back on CT3M to see if I can help that with this approach, but other than that wondered if it could be anything else.

    I have started 2 new supplements in the last month, but seems unlikely to be related......Chlorella, and NAC Detox Regulators (Selenium, Molybdenum and NAC) - just one a day of the latter.
     
  2. Plum

    Plum Senior Member

    Messages:
    356
    Likes:
    189
    UK
    Hi

    The thoughts I had on what you've written:

    Low BP = need more salt. With your adrenal issues I would look into this as adrenal fatigue = salt wasting. The Cornish Sea Salt is a good one. Don't use conventional salt but an unrefined one. The other issue can be dehydration. You then mention muscle pain - again this is a dehydration issue possibly and also a magnesium deficiency issue.

    You're on detox supplements - these will increase the need for adequate minerals. But go easily especially if you have any gut issues. You can get magnesium oil which you rub into your skin. When toxins are removed i.e. you speed up toxin removal from your liver, you can get muscle pain. Juicing has worked for me in the past with this. But possibly a bit more water and minerals may do the trick.

    There is a fine line though between hydrating enough and making sure you get enough minerals. So don't go over the top with hydration. I would focus on minerals first.

    Low temp = I know nothing about thyroid meds so please remember this with what I'm about to say! I have increased my temp slowly over about 1 year by making sure I eat some carb with every meal. Often metabolism is slowed down with ME. But, I honestly don't know when it comes to yr meds.

    How bad are your adrenals? Have you had them tested? They need a lot of love and support!

    I don't know what your diet is like. Any processed food contains the wrong sort of salt which puts a strain on your body. Our food (even organic) is low in minerals especially magnesium. If you're cooking for yourself, 5g of good quality sea salt unrefined is important - usually with adrenal issues we crave a lot more salt. Then work on getting enough magnesium. If you're going through increased cell regeneration then potassium can be an issue too - but these supplements are hard on the gut so I avoid them.

    Hope that helps.
     
  3. Helen

    Helen Senior Member

    Messages:
    571
    Likes:
    584
  4. mermaid

    mermaid Senior Member

    Messages:
    165
    Likes:
    132
    Cornwall, UK
    Thank you Plum. For all those thoughts.
    I do think it IS an adrenal issue, but I now suspect it may be complicated by the kind of thyroid med I am on which is fast acting. I had increased it very slightly at a point when my adrenals were no doubt struggling and maybe it was this that sent things downwards.

    I am experimenting today with a lower dose and done differently, and hopefully this will improve things......

    I have had 2 adrenal saliva tests done a year apart, the 2nd one this July. The results were not totally clear, and I tried to get good advice before I did it on usage of my T3/liothyronine thyroid med before i took the test, but unfortunately had conflicting advice. I am guessing that the T3 gave a skewed result. My first result of the day was sky high, which didn't accord with how I felt, but I had done the first test about 45 mins after I had taken a dose of T3, and I am pretty sure it affected it.

    My 2nd dose and 4th dose were improved from last year and in the normal range though not in the middle, and the 3rd dose was slightly down from last year. So not dreadful but not brilliant. My DHEA was fine.

    I could of course do the test again, but it's not cheap! So... thinking about that one. Meanwhile I am trying out again the regime developed by Paul Robinson (UK based) which uses the circadian rhythms to help with adrenal production. You can only do this if you are on thyroid meds though.... He has written a book about it and a number of people have found it helpful.

    I am taking in extra salt now...I have salt and lemon juice as I wake, and put it onto my food. I use a mix of the Cornish sea salt and the Himalayan rock salt.

    Yes, I could do with using a bit more magnesium maybe..... I do have the oil and keep forgetting to rub it in, though I have upped my magnesium intake too. My mineral intake I think is pretty good....I take a massive amount of good supplements on that score to top up any deficiencies though I prefer to get as much as I can from good food. I don't have processed foods at all really now, as they just upset my gut too much. So all is fresh and Paleo.

    I have a Vitamix machine and I throw a range of things in and make a v good smoothie each morning. I now concentrate more on veg than on fruit with that, and am trying to eat more green veg. I also eat meat and fish, nuts and seeds, and coconut oil.

    I probably don't eat carb with every meal. I was trying to lose weight having gained a lot over 10 yrs, but thankfully a stone came off this summer. In the winter I will tend to eat a bit more in the way of carb, though it's mostly in the form of veg, and I don't have much grain now. The weight seems to have stabilised anyway now, and no more is coming off, or on.

    I think the temp thing is probably related to being hypothyroid unfortunately. I was on thyroxine/T4 for years and my temp was not really good, but the liothyronine/T3 has improved things but it's not quite stable at the moment probably due to the adrenal issues.
     
    Plum likes this.
  5. mermaid

    mermaid Senior Member

    Messages:
    165
    Likes:
    132
    Cornwall, UK
    Thank you for taking the time to link to these sites. They are both very good.
    I am hoping that my drop is temporary and I am going to pull back a bit on my thyroid meds (just slightly) as I think maybe I increased them a bit too much at a point of adrenal weakness, and it's possible this triggered the problem.

    I have been monitoring my adrenals for about a year, and though they were not great, they were also not disastrous. I had a saliva test in July which indicated that things were improving, though I think that the first result of the day was skewed and not accurate. This sudden drop in BP/temp was not expected and I think maybe it was a combo of the stressful episode along with me slightly increasing my thyroid meds........ I will monitor for a few more days after dropping the thyroid a little and see what happens.
     
  6. Helen

    Helen Senior Member

    Messages:
    571
    Likes:
    584
    Lab tests for the thyroid must be done before any medication in the morning, so unfortunately your tests have no value. And the labtests are not very useful when taking T3. I have been through all stages and combinations of thyroid medication and adrenal supplements before I found my way. It is very important to learn about all symptoms that may be present with thyroid and adrenal issues so that you can keep track of all kinds of changes. The body temperature is very good to check the first in the morning, before you get up, but it might be affected by adrenals, infections and other things , so not 100 % valid. But you probably know about other signs and symptoms if your body is working slow. Did you read the book "Your Thyroid an how to keep it healthy" by Dr. Barry Durrant-Peatfield? I think it is a-must-read too.
    If you are on T3 the adrenals shouldn´t be that affected by the medication as T3 is the bioactive form.
    What thyroid med´s do you take, doses and at what times? Adrenal supplements? Liqourice? I you want, I can comment on this.
     
    Plum likes this.
  7. Plum

    Plum Senior Member

    Messages:
    356
    Likes:
    189
    UK
    @mermaid one other thing I like to do is look into the pathways of for example cortisol production - this shows how adrenal issues lead to female/male hormone irregularities. Low progesterone causes bad fatigue as well. Check out the 2nd picture in this link called 'Steroid Hormone Synthesis Pathways'

    http://www.drlam.com/articles/adrenal_fatigue_and_hormone.asp

    Dr Lam has good advice on adrenals in general.

    I would also look into thyroid hormone pathways and see where they interact with the adrenal gland. Might help you find what's going wrong.

    I can drink the salt and water - it makes me throw up!

    There has been quite a few reports lately about Himalayan salt being contaminated and not being what it says it is. I don't use it.

    Weight loss is hard to do with adrenal issues. I went onto an increased carb diet for my thyroid and gained a stone. But have now found a good balance so temp is up and 1 stone is off!

    You say you take a lot of good supplements and the following comments are only from my experience:
    I have taken everything under the sun for my adrenals and I think I was making expensive pee. Most of us have some digestive issue and this makes utilising the supplements very difficult. I now only take what I really NEED to. I've also found it's easy to overwhelm your body with ME and supplements so I tend to take very little. Yr diet sounds really good so I doubt you need too many supps :)
     
  8. mermaid

    mermaid Senior Member

    Messages:
    165
    Likes:
    132
    Cornwall, UK
    Thank you Plum. I have read some of Dr Lam's stuff but not this one. I will need to reread it again. I find scientific stuff like this so hard to take in. He is very wary about people taking hormones and that is enough to put me off entirely - don't like the idea at all!!

    So, who knows if I am low progesterone. I may be, or I may not be. How does one tell? I was doing quite well I felt until the latest set back.

    I will try and find his article about the thyroid hormone pathways though - haven't looked for that yet.

    Today I have been trying my experiment of cutting back a bit on the thyroid hormone and also doing the circadian rhythm method and checking vitals at various intervals. The BP is still low but I haven't had quite such low dips with it which is encouraging. Also the temp is not dire either. However I had an odd reading about half an hour ago with a normal body temp (37.0) but with low BP 92/54, so not sure why that was. I wondered if I had had a hot drink and forgotten, but no, I hadn't. Maybe my body is struggling to normalise but can't manage BP and temp at the same time... I don't know how this bit works really.

    Yes, I have read about the Himalayan rock salt too, and wondered what to do. Mine might be perfectly fine. I get it from a good health shop, but who knows? Frankly who knows about any of these things? A lot of stuff comes from China these days, and is possibly polluted. However, I did decide then to mix it with the Cornish seasalt until all the Himalayan was gone, and then stick with it.

    Good that you have found the balance for yourself re the temps and the weight. I think maybe having hypothyroid diagnosis may make things harder perhaps. Had it for 18 yrs now......and think it's done some damage.

    Yes, I know what you mean about the supplements. I have done different things over the past 4 yrs or so. First I did Dr Myhill's protocol which involves a lot of supplements. Then i stopped most of them. About a year ago when I began on the adrenal support, yes, I did take specific supplements for adrenals. Actually I couldn't tolerate many of them, and only used the herbal ones in the end. However I the stopped those too.....

    This April I went to see this Dr in London who has recommended a lot of supplements again which is why I am back on them, not for the adrenals though, but for general ME mitochondrial support, plus some specific ones for arenas he has identified with testing. I feel it is only fair while I can afford it to stay with those supplements at least for a reasonable time, and see if there is any improvement. One specific area has already been retested and is gradually showing better levels though not normal yet.

    One thing I did have tested 4 yrs ago was my Carnitine score via Dr M. I apparently had the lowest score she had ever recorded, but I was unable to tolerate the supplement, so I didn't take it. I had it retested this year, and though not quite normal yet, it has improved immensely, so as you say, supplements not always needed.

    By the way, did you realise that I am Aggie/agapanthus from the other ME forum you were on some while back?! Nice to bump into you again!
     
  9. Plum

    Plum Senior Member

    Messages:
    356
    Likes:
    189
    UK
    @mermaid Hi Aggie! I hadn't realised :) Nice to catch up with you again :)

    Would you mind sharing the name of yr Dr in London? I like knowing who's good.

    Yeah, I tried Dr. Myhill's protocol too. Made me worse. I wonder sometimes if there's a 'good' reason our bodies are low on some things and when we supplement with certain things, we don't feel very well.

    Progesterone - you can get a complete hormone panel done over the course of 1 month - saliva samples. Or if yr really low it would show up in the normal blood tests yr GP can order. I think it's important, not because you necessarily want to replace, but often adrenal issues cause pregnenalone steal which explains why you have lowered progesterone. But the important way of dealing with low progesterone is in reducing xenoestrogens - I feel this at least takes the burden off your body somewhat.

    Sounds good that yr temps are up but your BP is pretty low. How much fluid do you get through in a day? I am not pro drowning ourselves with water but I know someone who is dizzy a lot if they don't have at least 2 litres a day. Just a thought.
     
  10. mermaid

    mermaid Senior Member

    Messages:
    165
    Likes:
    132
    Cornwall, UK
    (aggie/mermaid waves back at Plum) :)
    The Dr I see is Dr Charles Forsyth. If you google him he has a website. He sees people mostly in Surrey but he has one day a week in London. I would say his specialism is environmental illness, but at the time I went I really wanted to get to the bottom of my gut issues, and my immune problems mostly. My gut is now improving, and the immune issues I am still working on. He did some of the Acumen tests for me that Dr Myhill also does, and is now treating me as a result of these. Hopefully it will make a difference in time...

    The thing about Dr Myhill's protocol is that the other things like sleep, pacing and diet tend to get forgotten, and people remember the supplements, but actually the other 3 are really more important. I think she says so too, but I haven't checked. Apart from Carnitine, I also could not tolerate Dribose, but I was OK with the rest, but I didn't feel I made good progress. That said, maybe there were things happening under the surface, as now I have had my Mitochondrial Function test redone too, it does show progress in fact. But I think that ME/CFS is about more than that in fact for many of us.

    I had to check the xenoestrogen thing as I couldn't remember what that was. This is the kind of thing that Dr Forsyth is strong on. I had already made a start on much of this, but have done even more since reading his leaflets on it. I have particularly changed all the things I use on my skin now, and only use either coconut oil or specialist products that I know to be safer.

    I have been checking my BP throughout the day, and the BP I gave you was the worst of the day. After that one I had one of 100/59, which is more like my kind of normal - not great, but not so dire. Also another temp of 36.9

    I see that Genova do the hormonal panel for £148 which is a bit steep, though I have paid that much for other tests. If I didn't recover then I guess it's worth doing. However I notice that Dr M does this test and she puts that it measures female sex hormones during a menstrual cycle. Hmm. I haven't got one of those, and haven't done for 10 yrs now!! Would that matter?

    I don't exactly know how much I drink as I have never measured it. I make myself a huge jugful of smoothie first thing for breakfast so that's quite a bit of liquid. I don't drink it all at once but over the day. I just checked how much as I have a Vitamix and it holds 2 litres, though I don't have quite that much, but probably 1.5. I add water to it, as well as kefir and coconut milk. On top of that I have probably around 5 mugfuls of water/rooibosch tea over the day. Also there is quite a bit of liquid in food of course.....I tend to eat a lot of green leaves now and they contain water.

    Anyway, I am quite hopeful now that this is going to improve, or at least go back to my normal which isn't great, but not v low as it has been since I had the setback. Thanks for all your encouragement Plum! :)
     
    Plum likes this.
  11. kisekishiawase

    kisekishiawase sad

    Messages:
    179
    Likes:
    63
    southeast asia
    this is also happening to me.
    but it seems like my body was diff then most people?? weird..
    mine got lower from usual: 85/51 the lowest i check 80/48 that also makes me worried how am i supposed to take my BB then. :(
    i used wrist digital tensiometer lying on bed with pillow but i keep my wrist on heart lvl. and tried couple of times. i wonder if its accurate. also bassal temp 35.5c. during the day after eat, activity, temperature 36 c.
    but the good thing is palpitation decreases.
    but weirdly before 4 days ago temp and BP got higher from usual(108/75 temp 37.3c) instead but palpitation was bad/worse for days
    my usual 'normal' BP supine was 92/60 temp 36.5c
     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2013
  12. Helen

    Helen Senior Member

    Messages:
    571
    Likes:
    584
    Your BP and your basal temp are mostly really low. I have been trough adjusting thyroid medication, adrenal support and potassium supplementation. At that time I also had an aldosterone deficiency, caused by low cortisol, that could be seen with a pupil test
    (read the text for instruction how to do the test).

    I wish you could get a good doctor, preferably a specialist in hormonal problems that could help and do proper testing and examination. Maybe any infection (-s) is affecting you too according to the different temp´s. Your reaction on salt might be a. clue. ( Aldosterone deficient people use to eat extra salt.) The same with liquorice, but maybe you don´t eat that. I love asian food -so healthy, so I can´t imagine you eat liquorice but it does have effect on blood pressure via cortisol that breaks down much slower with liquorice. Some people that are low in cortisol self-medicate with liquorice. Lack of cortisol makes the temp instable during the day. The link to Dr.Rind above will give you good information. The same with www.stopthethyroidmadness. I wish you good luck
     
  13. Plum

    Plum Senior Member

    Messages:
    356
    Likes:
    189
    UK
    Hey Aggie :)

    I have heard of 1 other ME person seeing Dr. Forsyth - do you find him helpful?

    I thought the Genova hormone panel was more expensive than that! It doesn't matter about not having a cycle - you can still do the test BUT I possibly wouldn't bother. You can assume you have low progesterone. If you look into natural hormonal replacement - bioidentical hormones, it is common to supplement with progesterone and NOT oestrogen even once cycles have ceased. I can't see what info the test would give you that you couldn't find out yourself from a little research and educated assumptions!

    I think we're all individuals and maybe your 'low' BP's are normal for you. I think you said in one of your earlier posts that you've had them for a while. You seem to drink plenty of fluid, eat well and take salt.

    I did go on a bonkers clear out of xenoestrogens in my life for 1 year. I noticed no difference :( I know it must help but there has to be a choice between cost effectiveness and cutting them out. I use very few cosmetics. But deoderant is a must for me. I make my own toothpaste and lip balms, don't wear makeup and distil my water. Coconut oil is a good mosturiser :)

    I think you should just keep what yr doing and yr body will settle down in the next few weeks and hopefully your BP's will improve :)
     
  14. kisekishiawase

    kisekishiawase sad

    Messages:
    179
    Likes:
    63
    southeast asia
    @Helen thanks for your respond. i tried that pupil with flash before seems like
    mine couldnt keep contracted. but my symptoms seems like someone who is hyperthyroid/high cortisol so i dont take salt much now. (jittery, tachy palp, sleep prob) so im confused. i tested for t3, t4, tsh, pth before (years ago) but its in normal range.
     
  15. Helen

    Helen Senior Member

    Messages:
    571
    Likes:
    584
    I will PM you as your problems seem to be different to Mermaids.
     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2013
  16. mermaid

    mermaid Senior Member

    Messages:
    165
    Likes:
    132
    Cornwall, UK
    It's early days re Dr Forsyth to be honest Plum, and he's so far away from me I have only seen him in person twice (first time in April) but have had a phone appointment in between and due another tomorrow. I guess if I haven't made progress by the end of the winter I will be pretty fed up. However I am prepared to stick with him for a while as it's useful to have someone to bounce ideas off other than the internet!

    I think the reality is that there are few ideal people to go to in the UK, and I think that maybe I know more about some aspects like thyroid than Dr F, but that is not saying much! I think he does know well what he does best which is the environmental stuff including working on chelation.

    I have read up now on the bio-identical hormones, and really don't fancy taking them at this stage. Maybe 10 yrs ago, yes, though I had a nice herbalist who helped me through the menopause, and having had horrendous PMT symptoms I had almost nothing during menopause, apart from gradually getting iller with what was diagnosed eventually as ME/CFS. As it is, I think I will just age gracefully, thanks - really don't have any obvious symptoms apart from the ME/CFS stuff and that's only in v specific areas.

    My BP and temps are now coming back up to 'my normal' - not great and body temp not ideal but getting there. I do have a low diastolic which i believe is common to those with ME/CFs so even if I manage to raise the systolic, the diastolic still stays low. Usually it's under 60. I did a little hoovering and had a migraine aura today, my first for about 6 weeks, so something is not quite right I guess, but never is really......that's probably because my system couldn't cope with the energy loss still.

    I looked into the deodorant issue recently and felt that the Weleda one was Okish. At least nothing aluminium related in it since it's not an antiperspirant. I don't seem to sweat so much post-menopause anyway. Or is it the ME? Or is it the hypothyroidism?

    Thanks again Plum, and nice to bump into you again here. There are a few other names I know here too....
     
  17. Plum

    Plum Senior Member

    Messages:
    356
    Likes:
    189
    UK
    @mermaid - I didn't mean for you to consider taking bioidentical hormones but rather use the info that exists to maybe understand some of your symptoms.

    I did consider seeing Dr. Forsyth but I find him a bit pricey - see him and eat badly, or eat well. Hmmm! Glad you are finding him useful though. His website is pretty good. Are there other practitioners you know of who you'd recommend?

    I haven't tried the Weleda deodorant. Hope it smells nice?

    Sorry to hear about your migraine - hope you feel better now.

    Have you ever looked into mould issues (sorry this is going off topic)?
     
  18. mermaid

    mermaid Senior Member

    Messages:
    165
    Likes:
    132
    Cornwall, UK
    Ah OK I see what you mean. It's pretty amazing to see the difference in my BP and temps today, but the method used to help the adrenals does take time and it's interesting to read around the subject of all the hormones, as it's certainly not straightforward. Well it may be for some people, but I think I've been ill for too long. I will try and read some more....

    Yes, Dr Forsyth IS expensive, I would agree with you there. I can only do it because my mother gave me some money which I am using solely for this purpose. It's difficult for me where I live to find good pracitioners so I researched Dr F via a recommendation on our old forum. I have seen a nutritional therapist, but wasn't that impressed to be honest. I have also been to acupuncture, for 18 mths but it really wasn't achieving much. I think there's a lot to be said for doing most of it yourself.

    That said, some of the tests Dr F has done have been very informative and he interpreted the stool test for me that I had had, and put me on very specific supplements that have gradually put some vital things right. At my age I could have been in danger of going beyond the point of no return, and there were some danger flags up. So apologies but I don't know anyone else - I think most are in London and they all seem pricey as far as I can see. I don't know what part of the country you are in too....

    Yes, the Weleda deodorant comes in 3 perfumes - I have Sage.

    Migraine okish now. Luckily I mostly get the aura with just slight headache and some extra fatigue.

    Funny you should ask about the mould...how did you know? It's on Dr F's list of my possible issues. We live in a v damp mouldy atmosphere here, and I spend a lot of time trying to keep it under control in our house, as it was terrible at one time. We actually have 3 dehumidifiers in a 2 bedroomed house. One room (not my bedroom) recently had little grey spots all over the ceiling, and I had to clean it off with a damp cloth on the end of a pole. Just found a bit I missed above a window last week. It goes on and on, though hugely better, and I keep it out of my bedroom now. We used to have black mould in places but I try and nip it in the bud now. We live in a house that is concrete and no cavity wall which I think is the source of the problems.
     
    Plum likes this.
  19. Plum

    Plum Senior Member

    Messages:
    356
    Likes:
    189
    UK
    @mermaid I was just curious about the mould as it's something I was recently looking into. I came to the conclusion that it's impossible for me to deal with and will instead try to make my home as mould free as possible. When you really starting researching it though it just seems so hard to deal with. I think the most conclusive advice I was given was to live in a motorhome somewhere dry! Not something I can do but I appreciate the idea!

    Hormones are little buggers! There is a lot to learn and understand about them - but then life's all about learning!

    I like yr comments about Dr. F and when I get my health more settled I shall consider looking him up.

    Glad yr migraine is ok. I get they badly so feel yr pain!

    By the way - if yr cleaning mould I hope your using a mask? Also, can someone without ME do it for you?

    The adrenal fatigue method yr following - is that only for people on thyroid meds? I'm glad it's helping you. Getting yr adrenals under control I can imagine makes a huge difference.

    Happy to point you to some mould info if you want some :)
     
  20. mermaid

    mermaid Senior Member

    Messages:
    165
    Likes:
    132
    Cornwall, UK
    I am going to pm you Plum now, as we are so off topic re the cardiovascular title we might be asked politely to go and have our discussion in the Community Lounge :)
     
    Plum likes this.

See more popular forum discussions.

Share This Page