1. Patients launch $1.27 million crowdfunding campaign for ME/CFS gut microbiome study.
    Check out the website, Facebook and Twitter. Join in donate and spread the word!
Give ME the Money
Graham McPhee spells out some of the cold, hard facts about the dismal state of ME research and politics, and has some suggestions as to what we can do about it ...
Discuss the article on the Forums.

Antioxidants. Save your money?

Discussion in 'General Treatment' started by beaverfury, Dec 15, 2013.

  1. beaverfury

    beaverfury beaverfury

    Messages:
    457
    Likes:
    463
    West Australia
    While trolling through the net looking at tart cherry juice for post exertional pain http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19883392

    ... I come across the wiki article on the ORAC scale (Oxygen radical absorbance capacity). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxygen_radical_absorbance_capacity

    The article pretty much dismisses antioxidants ( in vivo) , as useful for suppressing free radicals.

    "A wide variety of foods has been tested using this method, with certain spices, berries and legumes rated highly in extensive tables once published by the United States Department of Agriculture (USDA), but withdrawn in 2012 as biologically invalid,[3] stating that no physiological proof in vivo existed in support of the free-radical theory. Consequently, the ORAC method, derived only in in vitro experiments, is no longer considered relevant to human diets or biology by the USDA."

    "Although research in vitro indicates polyphenols are good antioxidants and probably influence the ORAC value, antioxidant effects in vivo are probably negligible or absent.[3][11] By non-antioxidant mechanisms still undefined, flavonoids and other polyphenols may reduce the risk of cardiovascular disease and cancer.[12]"

    "As interpreted by the Linus Pauling Institute, EFSA and the USDA, dietary polyphenols have little or no direct antioxidant food value following digestion.[3][11][10][13] Not like controlled test tube conditions, the fate of polyphenols in vivo shows they are poorly conserved (less than 5%), with most of what is absorbed existing as chemically modified metabolites destined for rapid excretion.[14]"


    I was hoping this wouldn't apply to bioavailable forms of supplemental antioxidants that i have spent a billion dollars on since getting ill, but wiki has this to say- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antioxidant_supplements

    " Although initial studies suggested that antioxidant supplements might promote health, later large clinical trials with a limited number of antioxidants detected no benefit and even suggested that excess supplementation with certain putative antioxidants may be harmful.[2][3][4)



    There could be other mechanisms in these supplements that make good sense for me/cfs people to take them.
    I just thought i would draw attention to this as supplements are often touted for their antioxidant effects.
    It does seem strange that we might be spending large sums of money on another ineffective strategy.

    Maybe someone with more knowledge on this could elaborate and clarify.
     
    anne_likes_red and Marco like this.
  2. GhostGum

    GhostGum Senior Member

    Messages:
    173
    Likes:
    127
    Vic, AU
    As with a lot of things I think it is just a case of the science being in its infancy along with insufficient understanding on how many of these biological mechanisms operate, sound familiar?

    Some of the wiki quotes to me are the establishment sitting on the side of caution and maybe rightfully so based on the science, but I am always annoyed at the dismissal and lack of research into supplements over the capitalist system of patented medications, which we also know is filled with flawed science; supplements are always left blowing in the wind.

    It is a just a bit of a crap shoot, I just go by what has been used by others on a large scale and on the anecdotal reports of many claiming effect (not just iherb comments sections), along with my own experience. One thing relating to anti-oxidants over the years though that many have mentioned is that more is not better and doses should be moderate.

    One anti-oxidant I have come back to time and time again over the years is resveratrol and I spend a decent chunk of money every few months to get it from a specialist company. This is suppose to be a powerful anti-oxidant once touted as anti-aging, which has now been debunked but for me whenever I come back to it after 1-2 month break the difference is very obvious, why? Who knows.
     
    Waverunner and beaverfury like this.
  3. Beyond

    Beyond 10% of discount in iHerb!--> PEZ915

    Messages:
    943
    Likes:
    528
    Murcia, Spain
    Because there is more scientific evidence for the in vivo antioxidant activity of orally consumed substances that there is against it. Especially regarding resveratrol. Too bad it further screws my sleep, because it is one of the most powerful substances for leaky gut according to the literature.

    Wikipedia has an agenda, it is Shillpedia for Big Pharma and other wealthy obscurantists. They don´t want us to know that foods and supplements can fight and cure diseases.
     
    GhostGum likes this.
  4. GhostGum

    GhostGum Senior Member

    Messages:
    173
    Likes:
    127
    Vic, AU
    Leaky gut as well? I have seen the claims on immune function benefits, also that it can be anti-viral (Inhibiting HSV) but nothing on leaky gut. There seems so many beneficial claims it is hard to take seriously but it is doing something for me.

    You know I do not like to drift too far left but it is hard not to think there is serious agenda in the pharmaceutical trade, the recent attack by the FDA on the supplement industry was quite blatant. Maybe some of the problems with supplements though is their effect can not be anywhere near as obvious as a powerful pharmaceutical making concrete conclusions difficult, especially when no one can afford to do a mass study for no personal gain. Same can apply to some pharmaceuticals though, having questionable results but do not come under the same scrutiny.

    Anyway I also find taking res later in the afternoon or at night a bad idea (at night is a disaster), you could try taking some first thing in the morning which is what I normally do, first thing on waking most of the time.
     
    heapsreal and Beyond like this.
  5. Beyond

    Beyond 10% of discount in iHerb!--> PEZ915

    Messages:
    943
    Likes:
    528
    Murcia, Spain
    heapsreal likes this.
  6. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

    Messages:
    7,403
    Likes:
    4,798
    australia (brisbane)
    Most doctors say u get all you need from food and supplements just make expensive urine.
    I like to reply, if that's the case then shit is just expensive food. Because we excrete it doesn't mean we haven't absorbed it and used it.Also I don't know to many people who eat 7-8servings of fruit and veg per day.

    I'm not going to list studies but they know there's increased oxidative stress in cfs/me and studies have also shown low levels of carnitine and q10. There could be more but I'm just going off memory. Also glutathione methylation cycle sups.

    Some of the negative studies I have read use such small doses that they probably wouldn't play a big part in lowering oxidative stress.

    There not a miracle cure all but I think they have there part in health and treating diseases.
     
    Beyond likes this.
  7. Beyond

    Beyond 10% of discount in iHerb!--> PEZ915

    Messages:
    943
    Likes:
    528
    Murcia, Spain
    lol

    Almost no one does eat that much veggies and fruits. Thats why I juice! And for example no way you could get resveratrol from eating grapes.
     
    heapsreal likes this.
  8. undcvr

    undcvr Senior Member

    Messages:
    797
    Likes:
    133
    NYC
    I think u can save your money on antioxidants but anti inflammatories are worth every penny. :)
     
  9. Hell...Hath...No...Fury..

    Hell...Hath...No...Fury.. Senior Member

    Messages:
    420
    Likes:
    542
    England
    Antioxidants were the best thing i ever found. I started maximol and revenol 10 years ago, the revenol is the antioxidant. Within 6 weeks i was bouncing off the walls and brain fog evaporated but not until after an excruciating two week detox which is like ME x 100. I had a decent few years (being careful) but then half the ingredients were removed a few years ago during another government attempt to ban them.
    They still work 'okay' but not like they once did. I couldn't live without them though.
     
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2013
    Beyond likes this.

See more popular forum discussions.

Share This Page