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Antihistaminic flavonoids: Quercetin, Rutin... especially Luteolin

Discussion in 'Mast Cell Disorders/Mastocytosis' started by Beyond, Mar 4, 2014.

  1. Sherlock

    Sherlock bicarb for exercise recovery and taming candida

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    Here are some things in this thread you might not have seen yet, especially with the second messengers cAMP gAMP:
    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...okine-release-and-inhibits.19188/#post-293419

    I'll add that usually niacin makes me flush to my ankles, but ordinary quercetin almost completely abolishes the niacin flush. (Theoharides has a study on that, also on luteolin IIRC.) Altering my diet also makes me flush very little, which apparently hinges on avoiding arachadonic acid. AA--> prostaglandins--> MC degranulation

    What do you mean by self testing ?
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2014
  2. Violeta

    Violeta Senior Member

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  3. Violeta

    Violeta Senior Member

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    @ahmo, I'm glad the neuroprotek is helping you. Keep us posted!:)

    @Sherlock, Thanks for that link, I hadn't seen it. I'm glad to see it because from looking at reviews I had come to the conclusion that quercetin, luteolin, Vitamin K2 and myricetin inhibit degranulation of mast cells through calcium channel blocking, but wasn't sure if my conclusion was correct.

    However, I am now looking at the role of copper in mast cell degranulation. I am wondering if it's higher up in the chain of command. For example, I found that copper (I suppose we are talking about the free ion) causes soft tissue calcification. (I'll get the link) Cromolyn has something to do with copper, and actually it's used to raise copper levels, why? Does it block copper channel, and thus raise copper levels(however in the wrong way!!???) I've seen in at least one review that at least one of these items we're talking about chelate copper. (When I have time today I'll look for the links if anyone is interested.)

    Last, but not least, is what I read about zinc carnosine. And then, someone just told me that carnosine helps copper get where it's supposed to go. Maybe you have already known this stuff, in which case, you might even be able to provide more clues.:nerd:

    Have a good day, everyone!
  4. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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    Tundras of Europa
  5. Sherlock

    Sherlock bicarb for exercise recovery and taming candida

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    Hi, Violeta. I didn't know that about copper, etc. But as you seem to say, is having higher copper good (e.g., preventing atheroma) or bad (as in beta amyloid)? I was taking copper tablets last year for other reasons, but didn't feel differently.

    I have a 1st degree relative with MTHFR. If I'm the same (probably so), that means I don't destroy histamine so readily. I'm thinking that higher background histamine means that I'm also more likely to degranulate, and with greater overall output. Like in a Western movie with the nitroglycerin in a wagon on a hot day, my MCs are more likely to explode :) Maybe my general efforts these days at being less overall inflammatory will have benefits across the board.
  6. Violeta

    Violeta Senior Member

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    Yeah, why didn't they tell us? And why didn't they tell us it does this through calcium channel blocking?

    I wish I could find the study that shows that mast cells need calcium in order to degranulate. I'll find it later.

    Here's something with respect to luteolin's inhibiting mast cell degranulation.
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15997834

    However, the very best kept secret may be with respect to how many issues mast cells cause and what the relationship is to copper and B2 deficiency. I will write my thesis on this.....some day.
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2014
  7. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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    Copper is a co-factor for DAO, and needed to break down histamine. What's the B2 connection?
  8. Violeta

    Violeta Senior Member

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    Copper not bound to ceruloplasmin or metallotheonein may also cause much more problems than not having adequate DAO. I have seen articles saying that it causes soft tissue calcification, which actually might be what we are trying to prevent when we take calcium channel blockers. I have to get the links to all this stuff organized, but right now I have to go get some food.


    But if you take a look at the information about copper in this link, you can see how important correct copper utilization and correcting the amount of copper in the body is.

    http://www.arltma.com/Articles/CopperToxDoc.htm

    I think a lot of copper problems are congenital. If you didn't grow up with copper pipes, maybe your mother did, and the issues that that causes can be passed down from generation to generation.
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2014
  9. Violeta

    Violeta Senior Member

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    This is interesting. If you read about zinc carnosine, it is said that the zinc is a mast cell stabilizer. Several people that I've been talking to who have mast cell problems take it and get good relief from acid reflux. I just looked up carnosine and found this:

    http://www.benbest.com/nutrceut/carnosine.html

    Carnosine is composed of two amino acids, and one of them is histadine.

    Carnosine chelates copper.

    Oh, I forgot the most interesting part.
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18064721
    It can attenuate mast cell degranulation.
  10. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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    No one is arguing that high levels of copper is not a problem, but so is low levels.

    Honestly I do not follow the B2 thread anymore, there is a lot of claims in there that is not backed up by science. I'd like to see any evidence that B2 "removes toxic stores of copper and iron" for instance. I did not see anything in that study you posted which has any relevance to this thread. That riboflavin deficiency contributes to anemia doesn't mean it removes iron, it means it supports its utilization.
    Valentijn likes this.
  11. Sherlock

    Sherlock bicarb for exercise recovery and taming candida

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    That's good, because I'd thought for years that they had a grudge against me :)

    Have you ever tried niacin as a way to deplete histamine? (Though, I'd wonder if people with severe histamine problems might find that the niacin flush is too much to take.)
  12. Violeta

    Violeta Senior Member

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    Yes, I was using niacin last week and it did seem to reduce histamines for awhile. It greatly decreased the itching. I stopped using it because it was making my sore throat worse. The itching stayed away until a day or two ago when my spine started to itch again.
  13. Violeta

    Violeta Senior Member

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    I'll remove it.
  14. Sherlock

    Sherlock bicarb for exercise recovery and taming candida

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    There's a mastocytosis (the malignancy) group out on the internet somewhere. They might have something now and again that interests you, though you don't have masto.

    Btw, I'd once seen a paper, published decades ago, which describes how mast cells were originally called Master Cells because they control most everything. Do you (or anybody) happen to have that cite?
  15. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    @Sherlock Self-testing, or muscle-testing. My primary method isn't actually the typical kinesiology muscle-testing, but another version of following the body's lymph rhythm for signalling yes/no to supps. I learned the method I use just as i was collapsing w/ ME/CFS, so there's been a long time to become confident w/ using it. Last night was the first I've gone w/o taking pituitary glandular for the past 2.5 years. It was essential for sleep. Not so now.:)
    Caledonia has linked a self-testing vid. My links notebook is unavailable at the moment, so I can't provide a link. I haven't watched it myself.

    Re your finger tendons: is it possible this is Dupuytrens Contracture? Mine resolved when I stopped gluten.

    And my need for lower doses of supps since Neuroprotek continues. I get to return unopened bottles of hypothalamus and pituitary to iherb!!! Pays for my first Neuroprotek :D
    Sherlock likes this.
  16. Sherlock

    Sherlock bicarb for exercise recovery and taming candida

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    Thanks for the info, ahmo.

    Thanks also for the Dx suggestion - but my problem is opposite, I can extend but can't fully close my fingers these days.

    Congratulations on your improvement, I hope you keep your streak going :)
  17. sregan

    sregan Senior Member

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  18. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    @sregan My inbox has another post from you that I don't see here on the thread, asking about self-testing. You'll see my response to Sherlock quoted above. Here's the vid link
    Self-testing http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Ex59wHLk3Q0

    Also, I continue to be really impressed with Neuroprotek, now a week since I started. I'm taking 1-2 AM, 1PM. This is much lower than the suggested amounts. The intensity of my mind chatter has shifted into a much lower gear. I'm continuing to raise B12/folate as well, which has finally brought calm to my body. But Neuroprotek is the Real Deal:thumbsup:
    Last edited: May 5, 2014
  19. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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