Discussion in 'General ME/CFS Discussion' started by Jessie 107, May 21, 2017.
Whatever you say
I have had a mood disorder for 25 years, for which I have been on medication. I have made a point of learning all I could about it. Anti-depressants have saved my life. If the Celexa isn't working for you, talk to your doctor about the weight gain and try something else. Some are known for weight gain, some have no effect on weight, and some are even known for weight loss. Everyone responds to them diffferently.
I understand only too well the reluctance to take anti-depressants (ADs) when doctors tell us it's "just depression". I'm not saying they're a treatment for ME. But if you are going through depression that is persisting, regardless of the cause, there's no shame in taking medications.
As for it not being a biochemical imbalance if it's not "organic", also not true! Depression can be triggered by grief or stress, and alters the neurotransmitters in the brain. Saying that your shouldn't take them because the depression is a reaction to bad circumstances is like saying that if you get a migraine from severe stress, you shouldn't take medication for it and rather should tough it out. It's hard enough dealing with all the ME symptoms, without having to feel guilty about taking ADs.
I work in a community behavioral health clinic, and I feel just as strongly about reducing the stigma around mentall illness as I do ME.
I forgot to mention, they are non-addictive as well.
So you admit its not a biochemical imbalance yet promote pills meant to fix "biochemical imbalances"
Please tell these guys, and also read some of the horror stories
Have you experienced the clinical condition of major depression yourself? Depression is a lot more than just "feeling sad" because you miss something. That's just normal sadness.
Perhaps you think normal sadness and clinical depression are the same? They are not.
You are stating categorically that you think the depression some ME/CFS patients suffer from arises because they have lost hope? Really, that's your theory? Where do you get your certainty that this is the case?
My feeling is that ME/CFS patients may suffer depression as a result of the neurologic brain dysfunction caused by ME/CFS, and/or caused by viral infection of the brain (which brain autopsies have found in ME/CFS patients). When ME/CFS patients feel depression symptoms, they may look for psychogenic explanations, but the real cause may be primarily neurological.
Are you aware of the recent research connecting brain inflammation to conditions such depression, bipolar, OCD and schizophrenia? Chronic neuroinflammation upsets the functioning of the brain, and may lead to mental symptoms such as depression. We know that ME/CFS involves neuroinflammation, so possibly that might be driving the depression sometimes found in ME/CFS, as well as the anxiety some ME/CFS patients experience.
You can state all the theories you want but we do not have a disease mechanism for ME/CFS.
That said no anti depressant was designed for an ME/CFS etiology (how can they be) yet they typically "work", which is because they are uppers.
You want other uppers, Cocaine, Amphetamines, Benzos all have been used as antidepressants in the past. They also corrected no biochemical imbalance because there is none. Again if you have actual brain damaging conditions then you have brain damage.
People medicate with the above or even marijuana, alcohol and a whole host of other chemicals to escape emotional trauma. None of these drugs are fixing the root cause of anything, they are emotional uppers (even benzos used to suppress anxiety despite the fact they are sleeping pills, and interestingly cross tolerant to alcohol).
Guess what, almost all the drugs i have mentioned will make a ME/CFS patient feel good at the right doses (some of us are sensitive to drugs mind you), i suppose they are all fixing ME/CFS biochemical imbalances
"Uppers"? That's a very simplistic notion, which does not even begin to cover the myriad biochemical effects that different classes of antidepressant have.
Fair enough, but they still fix nothing, from Dopamine pumpers to GabaA receptor modulators to Serotonin, Norepinephrine, and even opiod receptor agonists, they are all uppers with the same goal, chase away emotional pain.
@Alvin2, "uppers" is a street slang term for a stimulant drug, which is a drug that increases alertness and energy. Amphetamines and cocaine are classic examples of stimulants. There are some antidepressant drugs that have stimulant effects in their portfolio of biochemical actions — Wellbutrin is one and Strattera is another — but generally speaking, antidepressants are not stimulants.
I use the term uppers in an emotional context but its not a scientific term. You are correct that they run the gambit from sleeping pills to stimulants and in between, but what they do is cloak emotional pain.
I'm happy for a better term
Some people seem to do well on some anti-depressants, but it does seem like a complicated and uncertain area. Best wishes to anyone struggling with depression and trying to find what is best for them.
There's a great body of research out there, but this sums it up:
Thanks. The list of drugs that articles provides may cause mitochondrial toxicity appears to come from table 5 of this paper. It is similar to the list I already have in my mitochondrial toxicity thread, but has a few extra drugs. I might add some of those drugs to my thread.
Yes i am convinced that they have contributed in my weight gain. I wish all the best to anyone struggling with depression.
I may sound like a broken record, but please educate yourself about long-term outcomes with anti-depressants too:
No, I'm saying that biochemical imbalances can be triggered by stress or trauma.
Similar to how fibromyalgia is thought to be at times triggered by a stressful event - mine started after a car accident. I don't know enough about the mechanisms involved in fibro to be able to speak intelligently about it.
I do agree that there are some people who decide to seek ADs as a quick fix, or to avoid working on sources of emotional pain, avoid making changes. ADs don't really work that way though, in my experience. They don't prevent me from feeling pain or anger or sorrow (God knows, I can attest to that!). What it does is more like, bring me back to a level playing field, so that then I CAN address the emotional work. Like, knee surgery wouldn't make me walk, it just allows me to be able to walk. I wish I could explain this better but I just woke up, lol.
Yes, and likewise, there are also people who will use recreational drugs (street drugs like Cannabis) to obliterate emotional problems, or to cover up the shortcomings and underdevelopment in their own character, rather than trying to work on the sources of those emotional problems, or to work on developing their mind.
If you are using recreational drugs to cover up or obliterate problems that you should really be facing squarely, that can that then can create a downward spiral of dependency on recreational drugs. Then they are no longer recreational, but become chemical crutches.
I occasionally dabbled in a few soft recreational drugs when I was younger, but I had strict self-enforced rule never to take recreational drugs as a means to avoid emotional issues, or to act as a crutch for shortcomings and underdevelopment in my character. I would only take recreational drugs when I was feeling fine; I'd avoid taking them when feeling down. I wanted to squarely face the reasons and causes for feeling down, and try to address and fix the situation, not escape the problem with drugs.
When you are a teenager or in your early 20s, it's quite common to feel a lack of confidence socially, as you are still developing your mind and character at that stage. Just like when you first learn to drive, a lack of confidence is natural and a good thing, as it would be bad to have too much confidence when you have such little experience on the road.
But I had a friend who would say to me: don't worry about lack of confidence socially: just take a line of cocaine, and you will instantly feel very confident.
Sure that would work, but I totally rejected that approach, because I wanted to build confidence naturally. It's part of character building and growing up; it a slow but necessary process of maturing. I don't think you can properly develop your mind and character if you just produce confidence "synthetically" using cocaine.
But going back to antidepressants: there are lots of times when depression may not be psychogenically caused, but may be due to some physical organic cause in the brain or body. For example, both depression and anxiety have been linked to cytomegalovirus infection — that's a physical cause, not a psychogenic one, and it may not help to address the life issues you think are causing depression if the depression has a physical biological cause.
The developers of antidepressants sometimes even spout this theory. It makes for more profit, family member dies and your not over it in a few weeks, you may be depressed and should buy their pills. Why suffer emotional pain when you can bury it with our chemical crutch.
If your depressed then your depressed. If you have brain damage then you have a physical condition, you don't treat a concussion with an antibiotic much like you can't fix hopelessness with an upper. Uppers are a chemical crutch much like a painkiller for a broken bone, it helps pain by cloaking it.
People have made similar claims for Amphetamines, Alcohol, Marijuana, Cocaine (Freud anyone?) etc.
You can choose to believe whatever you wish, but belief won't change fact.
If you want to take uppers and choose to believe alternative facts (with lots of advertising money behind them) then thats your prerogative, not my job to convince you otherwise.
Not technically, but there can be either a masking effect where your feelings are numbed out, or a spellbinding effect where your personality changes and you don't realize it, but others do. Some people have lost inhibitions and started going on buying sprees, sleeping around or gambling - things that they never would have done before.
In fact, there is even a lawyer's tv commercial running in my area with an antidepressant causing people to become compulsive gamblers.
You can also try a Google Site Search
Separate names with a comma.