anticipating headaches on methylation protocol - suggestions please

[harrycat]

Hello,

I am shortly starting on the simplified protocol. I am currently working 4 days a week and really hoping I can avoid time off work if this protocol leads to worsening symptoms.

I suffer from migraines (or what I call migraines anyway - severe headaches, inability to move around, sometimes vomiting), particularly around the time of my period, but also at other times and have done for many years. My neck muscles are very tight and I have loads of trigger points that respond to nothing (hoping that methylation might be a factor) If I get more migraines or bad headaches on the protocol I'm worried about being able to cope.

Is there anything that people have found useful if they get bad headaches on this protocol? Am I right in thinking molybdenum is useful - is this a first-line treatment for headaches provoked by the protocol? Any other options?

Thank you for any suggestions.

 

[caledonia]

Yes, I believe molybdenum is the one. I suggest maybe starting at the beginning of your weekend off and maybe play around with it only on weekends until you can gauge things better. Start with very low doses, etc. and see what you can tolerate.

 

[maddietod]

I've never heard about molybdenum. How is it used? I get headaches as part of the detox (accompanied by nausea, a lot of heat, and sweating), and either lemon juice or freshly juiced greens (works best) stop both. There was a little bit of discussion about whether I was stopping the detoxing, or managing the symproms. But the detox symptoms are a lot less each time they come around. Hope this helps, and I'd love to hear what works for you.

Madie

 

[determined]

Hi, it sounds like we have a similar level of function. I am able to work part time now also and when I started the protocol, I didn't want to give up any of my hard-won progress.

So, what I did is I started with a dose that I thought couldn't possibly really do anything!

I took the smallest amount of a folapro tablet I could crumble off, and approximately the amount of mB12 powder, removed from a capsule, that might just dust the head of a pin. Then, I put both in a cup of water, and only ingested 1/4 of one teaspoon. I actually felt it was too little of each to do anything at all, but I felt "safe."

I can't remember when I noticed the increase in energy, but it was a very noticeable amount of energy. I just felt good for a few weeks, but then I started to notice some of my older symptoms returning (chemical sensitivity, food intolerances, headaches, etc.) I decreased the frequency of my dose to only 3X a week, which is where I am now.

My increased reactions continued for quite a while, but I was still able to work during this time.

So now I'm about 4 months into it and I still have very good energy levels. I'm still slightly more chemically sensitive than I was before I started the protocol, but I can still manage the situations I face each day.

Sooo, my advice is VERY low, VERY slow.

You mentioned migraine or migraine-like headaches. I used to get migraine almost every day early in my illness. I should mention that, during the period when my chemical sensitivity got worse, I also got my first migraine in a very long time. So I think there is a chance you could have some problems; keep your migraine meds near you! I stopped carrying it with me years ago, and so I wasn't able to take it at work one day when I needed it.

 

[Freddd]

Hello,

I am shortly starting on the simplified protocol. I am currently working 4 days a week and really hoping I can avoid time off work if this protocol leads to worsening symptoms.

I suffer from migraines (or what I call migraines anyway - severe headaches, inability to move around, sometimes vomiting), particularly around the time of my period, but also at other times and have done for many years. My neck muscles are very tight and I have loads of trigger points that respond to nothing (hoping that methylation might be a factor) If I get more migraines or bad headaches on the protocol I'm worried about being able to cope.

Is there anything that people have found useful if they get bad headaches on this protocol? Am I right in thinking molybdenum is useful - is this a first-line treatment for headaches provoked by the protocol? Any other options?

Thank you for any suggestions.

Hi Harrycat,

I spent more than a decade with chronic daily headaches with 3-5 day killers each two weeks with vomiting and all. These headaches are a common methylb12/adenosylb12/Metafolin deficiency symptom. The very tight painful muscles in the neck are often neurological but they can also be of mixed cause. I have cataloged 10 varieties/types of muscle pains that each can cause headaches. They are caused by methylb12 and/or adenosylb12 and/or Metafolin deficiencies. The headaches are relieved when the cause(s) of them are taken. Their may be other contributors amongst the basics but it is assumed those will be taken. I would bet on the active b12/folate protocol but not on the simplified methylation protocol.

 

[bishbosh]

I also get migraines, usually worse around my period. Since starting the protocol I've been getting more migraines and headaches. The usual pain relief (including Migraleve) didn't help at all. This week I tried some SAM-e and it seemed to help with both types of pain. I've been meaning to post a Q to find out why SAM-e might be helping.

As an aside, there are those who claim that migraines/headaches around the time of your period are related to low progesterone. There's the famous Dr Lee who advocated the use of progesterone cream, but others also do. For what its worth, progesterone cream never helped me so I assume the cause in my case is not low progesterone (I'm hoping its low folate/B12 and it will be resolved on this protocol).

 

[tealady]

I thought those migraines around my period were related to the change in progesterone levels (progesterone which probably went too high compared to the estriol or estradiol or various estrogen levels) dropping rapidly usually before period...but could be rising too rapidly after day 14 ..or could be just too high compared to the estrogens. I could reproduce with taking progesterone and insufficient estrogens and stopping without tapering off slow enough. I never agreed with Dr Lee and the progesterone "pushers". As I approached menopause and my progesterone (cycle) didnt get as high my migraines gradually lessened to none. In a normal cycle(from looking at as much research as I could find and reading between the lines.. but its not certain) the estrogens should rise with the progesterone in the second part of the cycle,..I suspect mine didnt rise enough for balance. migraines taper off during perimeniopause and none since(my Mum was the same re migraines and menopause)..unless I bring one on by taking progesrone with insufficent estrogens and stopping/starting also I think?? (cant recall precisely) too suddenly. I was testing this and could actually reproduce one... not that its recommended...bit like shooting oneself in the foot just to prove a point?

I saw somewhere migraines also have to do with aquaporin channels and ie ADH (vasopressin )..and I suspect that maybe related from what Rich said about low ADH may be related to all of this(including the methylation -mito cycle) , I suspect the relationship may be via histamine levels. Maybe only those of us with this histamine near threshold level who then get a sudden change in progesterone (usually the fall) then trigger the migraine. That's my hypothesis anyway FWIW. (not much ...) ( Also note progesterone occurs int hta pregnanlone tree- so it goes either to the cortisol side or the progesterone side supposedly from what is thought to be understood knowledge?..so you have here gain an imbalance in this cortisol changing the histamine handling in body)
And I suspect the histamine stuff has something to do with this methlyation B12-folate cycle stuff it seems for some of us... so many are getting itchy, rashes, wiped , snuffly, irritated red eyes etc. Just from the symptoms here...

Oh yes, estradiol increases ADH ( I used it for this for a while, to cope with the thirst/dehydration) and that also prevents the migraines..and again ratio with the progesterone but maybe that's whyt one need a certain level of estrogens , something to do with the aquaporin channels and vasoconstriction/relaxation (also ADH related)..and I bet histamine affects all of this somewhere...only I haven't looked at histamine and know nothing about it as yet. Anyway if you can follow all of that rambling , that's my suspected link here.(and now ya know why migriane causes haven't been solved;-) Edited to add: add in the stress component as well (HPA axis and cortisol/pregnanlone tree, can be enough in itself to tip either way- sure to be more)
I got a headache (not a migraine) and wiped but lasted a few days (same time period) and fairly intense after trying a tiny piece of Metafolin ..just recovered fully today after many days. I should have tried some SAMe. I will remember if I ever try it again. I took some Telfast(antihistamine for 3 days ) and that seemed to work..plus I cut down on amine foods and cut out all B12 and folic acid/folate supps which are all supposed to raise the histamine level???(I read that smewhere but I don't know), and what i think may have happened on trying some Metafolin????
It seems PERHAPS that a lot of us seem to have highish histamine and thus seem to not be able to tolerate the Metafolin..I really don't know what I am talking about here, but I have been asking if this is possibly the problem. I guess its an unknown . but I think its worth consideration as many here seem to be having similar symptoms?
I wonder if one can get tested for histamine levels?

 

[bishbosh]

I never agreed with Dr Lee and the progesterone "pushers".

I agree with you on this point. Too many docs are too quick to blame everything on estrogen dominance and I think that's a big mistake. It seems estrogen dominance is the catch-all for too many things today and I'm not sure how accurate that is. In some ways its a bit like CFS being a catch-all for "I don't know what's wrong with you, so lets say its CFS". Its just assumed by too many doctors/practitioners that if you are female and aged over 35-38, then by definition you MUST be estrogen dominant, yet there is no objective way of testing for this.

Plus, as you're probably aware, the data on progesterone, even natural progesterone is very confusing. There are some who say natural progesterone protects us against breast cancer; there are others who claim that progesterone causes breast cancer. I've come to the conclusion that unless you are working with a very knowledgeable doctor who is regularly monitoring your progress, messing around with hormones is potentially dangerous. It caused me no end of side effects and I was working with a doctor who was apparently well-versed in the use of natural progesterone.

I could not even begin to comment on the histamine thing; my brain is way too dead to think it through right now

 

[Forebearance]

Harrycat, molybdenum stops my detox related headaches. Whenever I feel one coming on, I go get a swig from my bottle of Angstrom Minerals molybdenum. It's a liquid form.

Also, before I ever began the methylation supplements, I went to see a very good physical therapist who did cranial sacral therapy. That ended my typical CFS-caused headaches, which I had had for years. I loved the CST, because it was very, very gentle. But it's important to find someone who is well-trained and really good at it. (not someone who just took a weekend course on it)

Edited to add: Some of us early methylation protocol people started taking Manganese because of something Dr. Yasko wrote in her book. I'm trying to remember what it was for. Maybe too much sulphur? Were headaches one symptom of too much sulphur? Anyway, I remember being pleased with how it worked.

I still take moly and manganese to this day.

 

[harrycat]

thanks so much for all the responses to this thread. i'm going to get some molybdenum and sam-e ready for when i start the protocol and will definitely go slow. i'm interested in the cranial sacral therapy too, so thanks forebearance for recommending that. have decided to go with the simplified protocol for starters, but will try the methylb12 / adenosylb12 if things don't work out. thanks again.

 

[oipemowell]

I am new in starting up the methylation vitamins. I am starting with Methylmate 1 drop under my tongue every 5th day. The first and second day I get sharp headaches and more tired. I am hoping my body will adjust and I can go to one drop every 4th day, etc.

Then I want to add in the Hydroxy b12 and eventually Actifolsyr. I discussed all this with Rich over the internet.

It seems like it will take forever to make any progress, tho. Urgh.

So, I have read here that molydenum and manganese help detox (how much????) and lemon juice, and juicing and I know from doing fasts that coffee enemas pull toxins out quicky. I use psyllium seed and bentonite clay in juice when I fast, so maybe doing this with food tho, could help pull out toxins. These headaches can be real killers..

Any other suggestions?

Thanks.

Donna :headache:

Oh, I just read that 15 mgs. of molydenum is the most you should take out of Nutritional Healing.

 

[dannybex]

Riboflavin (B2) for Migraines

I never have had migraines, but have heard quite often that vitamin b2 (riboflavin) can be very helpful, and there are several studies that have shown this. Here's one:

http://www.neurology.org/content/50/2/466.short

"We now compared riboflavin (400 mg) and placebo in 55 patients with migraine in a randomized trial of 3 months duration.

Using an intention-to-treat analysis, riboflavin was superior to placebo in reducing attack frequency (p = 0.005) and headache days (p = 0.012).

Regarding the latter, the proportion of patients who improved by at least 50%, i.e. responders, was 15% for placebo and 59% for riboflavin..."

 

[Freddd]

I thought those migraines around my period were related to the change in progesterone levels (progesterone which probably went too high compared to the estriol or estradiol or various estrogen levels) dropping rapidly usually before period...but could be rising too rapidly after day 14 ..or could be just too high compared to the estrogens. I could reproduce with taking progesterone and insufficient estrogens and stopping without tapering off slow enough. I never agreed with Dr Lee and the progesterone "pushers". As I approached menopause and my progesterone (cycle) didnt get as high my migraines gradually lessened to none. In a normal cycle(from looking at as much research as I could find and reading between the lines.. but its not certain) the estrogens should rise with the progesterone in the second part of the cycle,..I suspect mine didnt rise enough for balance. migraines taper off during perimeniopause and none since(my Mum was the same re migraines and menopause)..unless I bring one on by taking progesrone with insufficent estrogens and stopping/starting also I think?? (cant recall precisely) too suddenly. I was testing this and could actually reproduce one... not that its recommended...bit like shooting oneself in the foot just to prove a point?

I saw somewhere migraines also have to do with aquaporin channels and ie ADH (vasopressin )..and I suspect that maybe related from what Rich said about low ADH may be related to all of this(including the methylation -mito cycle) , I suspect the relationship may be via histamine levels. Maybe only those of us with this histamine near threshold level who then get a sudden change in progesterone (usually the fall) then trigger the migraine. That's my hypothesis anyway FWIW. (not much ...) ( Also note progesterone occurs int hta pregnanlone tree- so it goes either to the cortisol side or the progesterone side supposedly from what is thought to be understood knowledge?..so you have here gain an imbalance in this cortisol changing the histamine handling in body)
And I suspect the histamine stuff has something to do with this methlyation B12-folate cycle stuff it seems for some of us... so many are getting itchy, rashes, wiped , snuffly, irritated red eyes etc. Just from the symptoms here...

Oh yes, estradiol increases ADH ( I used it for this for a while, to cope with the thirst/dehydration) and that also prevents the migraines..and again ratio with the progesterone but maybe that's whyt one need a certain level of estrogens , something to do with the aquaporin channels and vasoconstriction/relaxation (also ADH related)..and I bet histamine affects all of this somewhere...only I haven't looked at histamine and know nothing about it as yet. Anyway if you can follow all of that rambling , that's my suspected link here.(and now ya know why migriane causes haven't been solved;-) Edited to add: add in the stress component as well (HPA axis and cortisol/pregnanlone tree, can be enough in itself to tip either way- sure to be more)
I got a headache (not a migraine) and wiped but lasted a few days (same time period) and fairly intense after trying a tiny piece of Metafolin ..just recovered fully today after many days. I should have tried some SAMe. I will remember if I ever try it again. I took some Telfast(antihistamine for 3 days ) and that seemed to work..plus I cut down on amine foods and cut out all B12 and folic acid/folate supps which are all supposed to raise the histamine level???(I read that smewhere but I don't know), and what i think may have happened on trying some Metafolin????
It seems PERHAPS that a lot of us seem to have highish histamine and thus seem to not be able to tolerate the Metafolin..I really don't know what I am talking about here, but I have been asking if this is possibly the problem. I guess its an unknown . but I think its worth consideration as many here seem to be having similar symptoms?
I wonder if one can get tested for histamine levels?

Hi Tealady,

Methylfolate deficiency INCREASES histamine and allergic reactions. Methylb12 DEFICIENCY increases histamine and allergic reactions.