Lipkin's Monster ME/CFS Study: Microbes, Immunity & Big Data
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Antibiotics, gut bacteria, and food reactions?

Discussion in 'The Gut: De Meirleir & Maes; H2S; Leaky Gut' started by NilaJones, Aug 25, 2015.

  1. NilaJones

    NilaJones Senior Member

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    Hello all :).

    I am on abx for Yersiniosis. I am also in the middle of a multi-year elimination diet to see which foods I react to. (Answer: A lot, including all grains, even quinoa.) I am taking prescrip-assist and orthobiotic to help me cope with the abx.

    Now that I have got the abx side effects pretty well under control, I felt it was time to test some new foods. I tested about 5 things yesterday -- didn't react to the first one, so tried another, etc. I reacted to none. This was exciting (more variety in my diet) but then I wondered: If gut bacteria are related to food reactions, does that mean I should not test foods when on the abx? And start over with the elim diet after I am done with the abx and have had time to establish new bacteria? But isn't a broad diet important to establishing the right bacteria anyway?

    I'd love some help / insight for thinking this through!
     
  2. NilaJones

    NilaJones Senior Member

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    Hmmm... no response. Maybe I should tag in some of the people I'd hoped for input from? Like @Hip, @ahmo, @Critterina but she may be AWK, @msf maybe...

    I am having a fuzzyheaded day and hoping to crowdsource my brain :).
     
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  3. msf

    msf Senior Member

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    Sorry, this is definitely above my pay grade (which isn´t surprising, since my pay grade is 0). I try to be careful on antibiotics, but I don´t restrict myself completely, since that may cause further problems as you suggested.
     
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  4. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    I don't know. by the time I did a big Candida/SIBO purge I was already on an extremely limited diet. Seems to me that if it's ok for you to eat foods, you should celebrate it. If you need to eliminate them again later, well, that's in the future. Since your diet is a multi-year elimination it would seem that you're not gooing to wait all those years to try things again. I will likely never eat grains again. Do you know about autoimmune stimulating foods? Gluten cross-reactive? Also histamine, mast-cell promoting foods. There is no bacterial involvement with these issues. Maybe you've already answere these questions, I have a very porous memory.

    http://aiplifestyle.com/what-is-autoimmune-protocol-diet/

    http://www.thepaleomom.com/2013/03/...re-eating-gluten-even-after-giving-it-up.html

    http://blog.primohealthcoach.com/blog/bid/79586/18-Gluten-Cross-Reactive-Foods

    The Many Faces of Histamine Intolerance http://healthypixels.com/?p=1044

    http://thelowhistaminechef.com/wondering-why-you-react-to-everything-you-eat/
    http://selfhacked.com/2014/08/01/deal-histamine/
     
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  5. NilaJones

    NilaJones Senior Member

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    @msf: What do you mean by 'be careful'? I don't get it.

    @ahmo: Thanks so much for the links!

    I react to a few histamine foods (leftover meat, cinnamon, anise) but not to a bunch of them (tomatoes, fruits, and yesterday bell peppers tested out fine). It's confusing.

    Re: gluten cross-reactive, I am fine with cow's milk and tapioca, but certified gluten-free oats are TERRIBLE for me.

    Re: autoimmune, I am fine with potatoes and tomatoes.

    I didn't know about either of those last two diets, so I really appreciate the info! So far I cannot find any diet that matches up with what I do and don't react to.

    The reason the elimination diet is taking me multiple years is that some of my reactions are severe. I have to wait months or years for them to resolve... and if I am going to try something new I have to wait for a time when I can cope with a potential bad reaction.

    I hate to think that I may have to throw out all my data after this antibiotic course. If I start reacting to a thing I didn't react to before, I won't know it unless I try eliminating that thing. I guess after the abx I will have to have a rotating elimination schedule on the foods that are currently ok...
     
  6. msf

    msf Senior Member

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    I don´t eat FODMAP foods.
     
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  7. NilaJones

    NilaJones Senior Member

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    Ah, yes. I checked that one out, but lots of fodmap foods are ok for me, too...
     
  8. msf

    msf Senior Member

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    Lucky you! I wish I could eat some of those delicious FODMAPs...
     
  9. NilaJones

    NilaJones Senior Member

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    :: laughing ::
    My sympathies!
     
  10. NilaJones

    NilaJones Senior Member

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    I had an intense episode today.

    I am nauseous all the time, of course. But it was worse today, also tired, so I did not eat anything until midafternoon. Then I tried a few bites of soup. A bit later, very intense nausea, sweating,shaky, etc. Did not quite throw up.

    Felt better 3 hours later, ate some soup and took the abx pill that was due earlier in the afternoon. Will see how that goes.

    Anybody have any thoughts on this? I am also thirsty all day.
     
  11. alkt

    alkt Senior Member

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    sorry to but in but you mentioned connective tissue problems, have you been checked for fibromyalgia it has many symptoms that overlap with m.e and has a higher prevalence in people with connective tissue problems they used to say double jointed.
     
  12. NilaJones

    NilaJones Senior Member

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    Thank you. Yes, I have been checked and I do not have fibromyalgia. I do have EDS, which is what used to be called double jointed.
     
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  13. Hutan

    Hutan Senior Member

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    I am not an expert in food reactions at all; I probably should do more experimenting but it's hard and confusing. So kudos to you for such a disciplined approach.

    But Nila, perhaps it would be better to introduce just one food at a time and have a week or two of eating it before deciding it's ok and moving on to the next one?

    My guess would be that if a food is ok for you when your gut bacteria are depleted and knocked around by an antibiotic, it will be probably be ok for you when you aren't taking the antibiotic anymore.
     
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  14. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    If antibiotics were interfering with your food intolerance testing, which I would have thought is unlikely, I imagine it would be via the anti-inflammatory effects that some antibiotics possess (what antibiotics are you taking?), which could in theory I guess possibly dampen and mask an intolerance response.


    By the way, how is it that your elimination diet is taking years? When I did an elimination diet decades ago (when I discovered I had a gluten intolerance), it took four months. What I did was initially cut out all foods known to cause allergy for a couple of weeks, to clean out the system, and then every three days, I'd reintroduce one of the foods that I had cut out. So on this schedule, after 4 months of taking one new food every 3 days, you can cover 40 major food groups and food items.
     
  15. NilaJones

    NilaJones Senior Member

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    Ah. So I am wrong in thinking that food reactions can have to do with gut bacteria? I thought part of the reason for improving the microbiome was to reduce food reactions -- is that wrong?

    As for antiinflammatory effect, I am not feeling any. I'm on cefuroxime and doxycycline, supposed to be for 2 months.

    The reason the elimination diet is taking me multiple years is that some of my reactions are severe. I have to wait months or years for them to resolve... and if I am going to try something new I have to wait for a time when I can cope with a potential bad reaction.

    Once every few months (sometimes 6 months) I have a day when the stars align and I can try new foods. On that day, I try one and if I don't react I try another, etc. My reactions normally happen withing 30-45 minutes, although yams did fool me by reacting after 4 hours :).

    I also eat a wide variety of foods, seasonings, etc., so I am reintroducing hundreds of foods, not 40. Are you saying that I can group them, and just try one from each group? What groups would I use? My reactions to each grain, for example, are very different. And I know histamine people often find lemon and lime to be ok (this is true for me) but not necessarily oranges and grapefruit (I haven;t tried either).
     
  16. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    I have never come across anything that suggests food intolerances are mediated by gut bacteria, though I don't know much about this area. Although the bacteria in your gut may perhaps help set the scene for the appearance or worsening of food intolerances. There is an article here on how Clostridia gut bacteria protect against food allergies.



    I was thinking of basic food groups such as gluten containing foods, dairy products, the nightshade family, bean family, citrus fruit family, etc.

    There is a list of foods groups here. If you have an intolerance to one member of a group, you may well have intolerances to other members (but this is not always the case).
     
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2015
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  17. NilaJones

    NilaJones Senior Member

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    Oh, wow, I sure had that wrong! I thought it was the main reason people here work on microbiome.

    So, this may be a very stupid question, but why DO people care about adjusting their gut bacteria, then? More energy?

    I'm awfully sick at the moment, so I may be missing something obvious, but I really did think that was it.

    Ah, yes. My reactions don't work that way -- some dairy products are ok but not all, some beans, etc.
     
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2015
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  18. alkt

    alkt Senior Member

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    many people with long term health problems report symptoms of irritable bowel syndrome. a balance gut fauna can improve such symptoms. probiotic supplements can help restore the levels of the more beneficial bacteria. certainly reduced diorhea for me.
     
  19. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    One reason is intestinal dysbiosis, is where the bad bacteria in the large intestine outweigh the beneficial bacteria. People with ME/CFS often have intestinal dysbiosis. In this case you may use probiotics/prebiotics to try to increase beneficial bacteria populations, and thereby decrease bad bacteria, by "muscling them out".

    Another is if you have leaky gut, as probiotics can help this.

    IBS symptoms can also be improved with probiotics/prebiotics, or taking certain antibiotics (rifaximin).


    Have you ever been tested for leaky gut? According to this Wikipedia article on food intolerances, leaky gut has been linked to some food intolerances.

    In that article, it's worth reading the "Causes" section for food intolerance, as it lists several factors that may be precipitating these intolerances.
     
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  20. NilaJones

    NilaJones Senior Member

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    Thank you so much, @Hip !
     
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