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Anti fish oil/omega 3s but pro Evening primrose oil, any thoughts

Discussion in 'General Treatment' started by heapsreal, Apr 12, 2012.

  1. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

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    This doc/researcher is anti fish oil, especially in the ratio's and large dosages commonly used which he says is pro-inflammatory, which is interesting as i use to take 8 fish tabs a day as this was the rcommended dose at the time. I got no benefit from this as i was after improvement in joint pains/inflammation etc as well as no difference in blood lipid tests with before and after testing, its commonly advertised that it helps these conditions????

    Anyway heres a link or 2-
    http://www.brianpeskin.com/BP.com/about/PeskinPrimer.pdf
    http://www.brianpeskin.com/

    I would be interested to see if anyone has had improvement in blood tests of inflammatory markers or blood lipids/cholesterol from fish oil.

    Im now starting evening primrose oil, so we will see how it go's??

    cheers!!!
     
  2. caledonia

    caledonia

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    Read Barry Sears "The Zone". If you take too much GLA (contained in evening primrose oil) you'll eventually get bad eicosanoid overload and start to feel much worse.

    Technically you need a little bit of both GLA and omega 3's to make eicosanoids, with more omega 3's to make sure that you're making more good eicosanoids than bad ones.

    You can get all the GLA you need from steel cut oats. All capsules with GLA (evening primrose, borage oil and black currant seed oil) contain way too much.
     
  3. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

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    if you read the article they are saying the reverse of what your saying about GLA. There seems to be so much research that contradicts each other. no wonder we are all confused. i suppose all we can do is try things out. I dont really have an opinion either way just my personal experience with fish oil where i didnt find it helped me, so now im going to try primrose/GLA. I have been told to take 3grams a day which is 3 capsule a day, which seems alot from what you are saying. I plan to see if primrose helps with joint inflammation, cholesterol and my testosterone levels, if i dont see any changes with this then i will review things. I suppose if we can get/afford the right testing we could supplement with the correct nutrients.

    cheers!!!
     
  4. Whit

    Whit Senior Member

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    Fish Oil never had any noticeable benefit for me. But very very few supplements have. Only thing that's really helped is D Ribose. I actually feel better taking nothing but D Ribose than I did when i was taking a whole slew of vitamins under direction from an experienced nutritionist. I've tried adding fish oil a couple times since stopping all the supplements and if there is an effect, it is for the worse.

    I may try some that are processed less. And maybe take them out of the capsules and put the goop on food. :-/ But then again maybe not....
     
  5. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

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    Theres a few supps i take that have no sudden obvious noticeable effect but keep taking them because of research and there health benefits like antioxidants.

    cheers!!!
     
    Sallysblooms likes this.
  6. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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    Tundras of Europa
    High doses of fish oil can be pro-inflammatory. I would stick with lower doses, around 2000mg should be fine. Also take fish oil with vitamin A and E, to avoid lipid peroxidation.
     
  7. Googsta

    Googsta Doing Well

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    I started taking 2000 - 4000 fish oils immediately after my LDL returned bad result. I go for a review test in the next month or so, mind you it may be difficult to tell if it was the fish oil or change of diet.
    I do beleive it has helped me cognitively ;)
     
  8. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

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    Be interesting to see your results. I think it maybe one of those things that some need to supplement with and others dont.
    Adreno, your probably right, an each way bet?

    cheers!!!
     
  9. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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    Yes. Also remember that EPA quite potently suppresses cortisol.
     
  10. Calathea

    Calathea Darkness therapy

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    The only really noticeable effect I've had from Omega 3 oils (echium oil, in my case, as I'm vegan) was that when I started taking them, initially at a dose of 4g/day, my periods became much shorter and lighter. I have a copper IUD which does the reverse, so this was welcome. I did a bit of googling and apparently this is a known phenomenon with omega oil supplements. I'm not sure what it tells you about my hormones in general. Being broke, I'm now down to 1g Omega 3 (1 capsule echium oil, 1 capsule algae oil) plus 500mg borage oil (stronger version of GLA than evening primrose oil), in the hope that it might be doing something vaguely useful. Possibly I generally feel a bit better when I'm on these oils. It's hard to tell. Since my diet is naturally very low in Omega 3s, I reckon it's a useful thing to supplement to be on the safe side.
     
  11. john66

    john66 Senior Member

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    Hi Heaps, I take the DHA part of fish oil. When ever I take the EPA part, I get nosebleeds, presumably from blood being thinned. I have familial cholesterol issues and have tried lots of things to lower it. I always wound up not taking it because of the fish burping and it never really lowered cholesterol all that much. In the US, they have a med called Lovazza which is pharmaceutical fish oil. The indication is for high triglycerides, which I believe it helps with. In my case, triglycerides have never been the problem, it is the ldl's that are out of range. I have been reading a lot of Jack Kruse's site, who, like Brian Peskin advocates a low carb diet. Dr. Kruse is a nuerosurgeon that writes a blog about paleo dieting, cold thermogenesis and all of the immune and gut benefits that they produce. Are the sleep issues any better?
     
  12. Whit

    Whit Senior Member

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    Yeah I have done the same for years. "it must be doing something good". But these supplements are expensive, and I actually feel better when I don't take them. Everytime I try to take vitamins again I feel worse. Right now I'm just focusing on getting as much nutrition from food as I possibly can.
     
  13. SaraM

    SaraM Senior Member

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    Hi Heaps,
    My cholesterol level was not bad, but 1000 mg Carlson fish oil had a very positive effect based on test results.I sometimes take 500 mg GLA, but have no idea if it is doing any thing.
     
  14. Sallysblooms

    Sallysblooms P.O.T.S. now SO MUCH BETTER!

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    LOVE them ALL!!! You do not have to notice things you take. They have to be taken for the brain, nerve health etc. I trust my integrative docs. and I read constantly. Brands and doses matter. Overdoing anything is not good.
     
  15. August59

    August59 Daughters High School Graduation

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    I used to take Lovasa for quite awhile till insurance ran out. I then started taking a fish oil from Vitamin Shoppe that has 5 times more EPA than DPA. I only take 2 per day (2000mg) and the only thing that is documented is that my triglycerides have dropped from the high 300's down to the 180 to 200 range. My HDL is still a problem at 37 and it hasn't been above 40 in 7 years, but the doctors don't say a word about it. The only thing that ever affected my HDL was Triglide which is for high triglycerides, but it did raise my HDL to around 45 and of course my triglycerides were down to 130 or so. Also lowered LDL accordingly. I can't take statins.
     
  16. taniaaust1

    taniaaust1

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    Fish Oil has certainly helped me in the past ache and pain wise, when I had issues with the osteroarthritis I have. I took it with Glucosamine and could notice postive effects from the fish oil within a week.

    Best luck with the primrose oil.

    I remember reading in the past that primrose oil isnt recommended for many of us but I cant now remember why.
     
  17. taniaaust1

    taniaaust1

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    Watch that copper IUD. I blame the fact I used to have a copper IUD on my high copper hair test readings.

    I also got pregnant while having that copper IUD.. which caused a whole heap of problems as they can embed into the baby and I then had to get it out while pregnant... I was 4mths along by this point.

    The company that made the one I had when I rang them to tell them I was pregnant with it.. their reply was "that isnt possible", they were complete idiots.

    (my daughter was then born with serious birth defects.. but I think that is due to the polymorphism I have rather then the copper IUD.. but who knows).
     
  18. Googsta

    Googsta Doing Well

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    Wow Calathea! My last period WAS shorter & lighter! Now I'm excited, I hope this wasn't just a one-off. They are a huge problem for me, despite basic testing of my hormones being completely normal. Unfortunately the pain was as bad as ever, but now I have something to watch out for. Thankyou so much for posting this!
     
  19. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member

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    Hi, I have read some of Peskins work, not much yet but I hope to even though I way too busy.

    I have been involved in using essential fatty acids to treat CFS (not an ME diagnosis back then) since 1993.

    I was probably the first person to promote and try the use of high dose short chain natural omega 3s for CFS back in 1993. I was one of a number of patients this was tried on. There was also experimentation with fat restriction and higher dose omega-6s. This was the work of Dr Andriya Martinovic, whose practice was maybe 100m from my unit.

    Not much Peskin is saying is new, at least nothing I have read yet so I need to read more. The knowledge of natural fats versus fats is from the 80s. I was aware of it back then. The knowledge of essential fatty acid ratios (though with disagreement) took off in the early 90s. I am not sure what date the science is from though.

    A lot of what Peskin has said that I have read so for is trivially correct and highly misleading. Its a case of so what? Its a case of why is he over-generalizing?

    Evening primrose oil wil indeed help many with CFS. So does fish oil. Some of us get worse from fish oil, and the reasons we currently understand about this are complex. Most of us get worse from evening primrose oil, at least in my experience.

    Initially we experience a euphoria or high, we feel better. Over time this stabilizes. Then the decline begins. Dr Barry Sears found the same thing with athletes - an inital boost then a long term decline. Its not a reliable method to supplement omega-6s.

    Here is my interpretation of the science. Most of us have a functional deficiency of omega-6 fatty acids. Simple then, take more! Not so.

    Our underlying physiology has two major problems. First, we have problems converting short chain essential fatty acids to long chain ones. The primary problem that induces this is a decrease in reduced glutathione. The primary cause of low glutathione is oxidative stress, with an additional driver of problems in the methylation cycle for many of us.

    We have a second problem. We over-utilize essential fatty acids to make hormones called eicosanoids. These can be made from omega-6 or omega-3 fats. In general the omega-3 fats are less inflammatory, give less of a push to the immune system. As a result they calm the immune system. This is not a suppression, its a reduction in the strength of the immune boost. EPA on the other hand suppresses omega-6 conversion to eicosanoids, in a manner not dissimilar to NSAIDs.

    Three things, at least, push this increase used of essential fatty acids. The first is pro-inflammatory cytokines like NFkB. The second is increased NO. The third is decreased cortisol. A fourth thing will push it if you are not carefull: alcohol induces a massive and sudden increase in this pathway.

    So when we are deficient and take evening primrose oil, we feel better. A side path, that is very beneficial and leads to series one prostaglandins, is also boosted. The path leading to series 2 prostaglandins is boosted even more though. These are essential hormones. We need them too live. Once we boost this path we start making way too many of them though. So the initial euporia fades and we very slowly decline. Crashes become more common.

    We are all individuals. A one size fits all approach can be dangerous. You might be someone who does much better on evening primrose oil. Just be aware of the warning signs. If you get an increase in aches and pains, headache, and flu-like symptoms, you may be pushing this path way too hard.

    Having said that I do know that some patients who take evening primrose oil improve. I did too. Then I got worse. Then I got a LOT worse. I didn't turn that around till I stopped taking the evening primrose oil.

    Since adopting a policy of limiting my omega-6 intake:

    1. My pain levels went from extreme to very mild.
    2. My flu-like symptoms went from all day every day to a few days several times a year.
    3. My headaches went from many times a week verging on all the time to very very rarely, once or twice a year.

    Now all the these outcomes could be just coincidence. During this period I was also learning how to pace myself. There is also a downside in that a reduction in omega-6 essential fatty acids may be depriving me of important hormones and have long term negative consequences. Its certain that if I stopped eating meat and vegetables then I would become seriously deficient ... but to do that you would have to be living on almost nothing but grains.

    A few years ago I gave in on a bad day and walked to my corner takeaway. It had changed hands. I think I ordered a burger and fries. I had barely enough energy to get there and back, and not enough coordination to cook for myself. I came home and ate. Some tens of minutes later my pain skyrocketed. I was forced to lie down and was in so much pain I could not move for six hours - primarily chest pain. This is a long familiar symptom, not provably related to heart issues. My pain levels then declined.

    Several days later I went to the corner store and asked about cooking oil. They had switched to a new product - rendered animal fat. This has a high concentration of arachidonic acid, the primary fat that makes pro-inflammatory eicosanoids. Do you ever take aspirin or paracetamol? NSAIDs effectively work for pain and fever by preventing the conversion of arachidonic acid to inflammatory eicosanoids, although the mechanism varies depending on the drug. Even Vioxx did this, just more selectively and powerfully (thereby shutting down essential hormone synthesis almost completely). Adding more arachidonic acid is equivalent to taking anti-aspirin.

    The essential fatty acid story in ME and CFS is complex. It will be complex for anyone with a range of primary and secondary health issues. There is no one size fits all. Do be careful.

    So when would you want to boost omega-6 fats, including evening primrose oil? For short term use only during a primary infection it can boost immunity. In the long term though this will cause a lot of harm if you get the dose wrong, and the optimal dose varies highly day by day.

    Bye, Alex

    PS Borage oil is a more concentrated form of the active ingredient than evening primrose oil. Hence it is more cost effective. Anecdotally however the common experience is that it is less effective and causes more problems. I do recall reading that this has to do with the other ingredients in borage oil, but this was so long ago that I forget the details.
     
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  20. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

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    I know we cant do it but it would be interesting to know if the people who benefited from epa/dha were naturally low in this or ate food with minimal epa/dha or maybe their bodies process and absorb it differently as compared to those who have noticed no benefits.

    I dont eat seefood so i thought if anything i would be low in epa/dha but someone posted a good link on nutrient content of foods, i was suprised to see that other meats, those land gritters, also had epa/dha maybe not as high as fish but they still had this nutrient in them, so i wonder if fishoil supps are abit of a sales pitch as many dont eat fish regularly. Also another thing that has always struck me as strange is that fruit and veges are classed as high vitamin food, meat has a broader range of vitamins then any food and if you believe the world was created in a way that was best for us, 100 yrs ago fruit and veges were only eaten seasonal not all year round and kept frozen etc like it is now so it can be eaten all year round. Have we been led down the garden path about eating 2 fruit and 4 veg a day as it would have been impossible in the past, most people would have lived off 2-3 foods all the time, one which would have been meat. I dont know?????

    cheers!!!
     

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