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Another Psychological Disease Bites the Dust: PTSD Now Believed to Be Physical

Discussion in 'Other Health News and Research' started by Bob, Jun 11, 2016.

  1. Bob

    Bob

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    A nice attention-grabbing headline from Cort...

    Cort has a nice introduction to this research news, and then the New York Times has quite a long-read, which is very interesting.

    This research news applies only to brain damage from (bomb) blasts, so I'm not sure if Cort's headline is quite accurate. I would have thought that there can be psychological injuries from a highly stressful war situation, and other traumatic events.

    Whatever the case, it seems to be another situation where physical disease has been wrongly 'owned' and subsumed by psychology because it's been convenient to blame and ignore the (inconvenient) victims over many years.


    Another Psychological Disease Bites the Dust: PTSD Now Believed to Be Physical
    Cort Johnson
    10th June 2016
    http://www.healthrising.org/forums/...e-dust-ptsd-now-believed-to-be-physical.4493/

    New York Times.
    What if PTSD is More Physical Than Psychological?

    10th June 2016
    http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/12/magazine/what-if-ptsd-is-more-physical-than-psychological.html
    "A new study supports what a small group of military researchers have suspected for decades: that modern warfare destroys the brain."
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2016
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  2. Sasha

    Sasha Fine, thank you

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    Thanks, Bob - the NYT article is fascinating.
     
  3. A.B.

    A.B. Senior Member

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    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blast_injury

     
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  4. A.B.

    A.B. Senior Member

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    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shell_shock

    @chipmunk1 had some references to shell shock, which if I remember right, showed that it was already known at the time of the first world war that explosions could cause internal organ damage without any external injuries.
     
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  5. Bob

    Bob

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    Yes, I think the NYT article also discusses that the potential invisible blast injuries were known about early in the last century.
     
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  6. chipmunk1

    chipmunk1 Senior Member

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  7. Marco

    Marco Grrrrrrr!

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    I agree - powerful stuff.
     
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  8. chipmunk1

    chipmunk1 Senior Member

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  9. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member

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    I have used PTSD as a case for physical rather than psychological damage for years. I will have to look into this further.
     
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  10. Chrisb

    Chrisb Senior Member

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    The Report of the War Office Committee of Enquiry into "shell-shock" from 1922 is essential reading for anyone with an interest in this subject.

    eg. "The brains at post mortem exhibited no visible changes to account for death. A careful microscopic examination, however revealed the rupture of small vessels with haemorrhages in many places. The existence off these ruptured vessels bears witness to the great violence of the commotion and the fact may be usefully correlated with and explain the presence of blood in the cerebro spinal fluid in severe commotional cases when this is withdrawn by lumbar puncture."

    Inevitably these cases would have been on a spectrum and there would have been similar cases which did not cause death.
     
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  11. chipmunk1

    chipmunk1 Senior Member

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    and close to 100 years later we still don't know if we aren't dealing with a psychological condition. What a scam.

    Microscopic examination is of course never discussed. The psychs avoid it like the plague.

    One of the biggest psych scams is the claim that a normal MRI = healthy brain= psychiatric = CBT deficiency
     
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  12. worldbackwards

    worldbackwards A unique snowflake

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    James Coyne less than impressed...
     
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  13. Bob

    Bob

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    I wasn't sure if he was less than impressed with the research or less than impressed with some of the tweets he was seeing?
     
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  14. worldbackwards

    worldbackwards A unique snowflake

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    I think it's more to do with the spin as much as anything.
     
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  15. Simon

    Simon

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    Really interesting piece, and more than a few things resonated with the mecfs experience, though it was notable there was no comment from those who see PTSD as primarily psychological.

    It's complex. Here's the specific recent paper that was mentioned:
    Characterisation of interface astroglial scarring in the human brain after blast exposure: a post-mortem case series - The Lancet Neurology
    It features just 5 cases with chronic blast exposure - but all five had a PTSD diagnosis.
    Also, shell-shock was the original name in WW1, combining both the proximity to explosion with psychological issues.

    I'm guessing that not all PTSD cases involve exposure to explosions or other physical truama, but many do.

    I was going to pick out the gems from the NYT piece, but I'm not having a good day - and I'd rather watch a bit of sport instead (Wales, at Euro 2016, first big tournament in my lifetime! And winning!)
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2016
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  16. panckage

    panckage Senior Member

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    As I understand it TBI is a new (and still controversial) classification. I believe until fairly recently TBI cases were lumped under PTSD
     
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  17. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    The fact that PTSD can be caused by the shock wave emanating from bomb explosions does not mean all cases of PTSD are caused by such physical brain injury.

    This 2010 paper says:

    However, PTSD can also arise after a stressful divorce, suggesting that emotional stress can trigger PTSD.

    Although I'd like to offer a possible alternative explanation for the divorce – PTSD connection that might play a role sometimes: that a neurological virus might be behind both the divorce and the PTSD. I know someone who caught a nasty neurological virus, and she told me that as this virus transmitted to her friends, several of her friends suddenly divorced. Her neurological virus she said seemed to affect emotions, so may have changed the dynamics of marital relations, precipitating divorce. And perhaps viral infection might also sometimes precipitate PTSD; people with PTSD have more antibodies to cytomegalovirus. Ref: 1
     
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  18. chipmunk1

    chipmunk1 Senior Member

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    The problem is that (as always in psychology) that no one knows or agrees what exactly PTSD can be and how to diagnose it correctly. PTSD can be a lot of things.

    PTSD has become a very popular diagnosis and it seems that now everyone has it. Basically it is a version of freudian psychology where a traumatic event, this could be ordinary things in everyday life cause psychological trauma that leads to lasting symptoms.

    If a person suffers from anxiety and/or depression and a person can link the onset of symptoms to a traumatic event it could be PTSD. Sometimes you don't even have to link the onset to a traumatic event. Any childhood adversity will do.

    Then you qualify for trauma centered psychotherapy. In our culture the idea that a traumatic event causes scars in your soul that need to be healed by talking about it and releasing the emotions associated with that event is still extremely popular and some people absolutely love this. It's good money for therapists as well.

    What I mean to say is that legitimate PTSD cases are lumped together with lots of other questionable cases including people with medical illness and brain injury.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2016
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  19. Rvanson

    Rvanson Senior Member

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    "Shell Shock" is indeed a physiological occurrence among veterans who have had mortar or artillery rounds explode near them, of that there is no doubt. If close enough, it can even cause death with no fragmentation at all to the body.

    That said, PTSD is real. Many men simply can't handle watching men die or killing other men without dire psychological consequences. I believe that my own father was one of these men. He wouldn't speak much about
    his time in the Pacific during WW II. but I could see in his eyes and mannerisms that the combat took something
    away from him. He did mention how his 1st Lieutenant died during a battle with a round to his head, killing him.

    I tend to agree that psychology/talk-therapy is mostly horse manure, and it certainly was not responsible for my CFS/ME. CBT and talk therapy is not going to cure a physical illness or trama, be it shell shock or CFS/ME.
     
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  20. green_monster

    green_monster

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    please excuse spelling grammar. soory this will be long, i know people struggle with long things, i do. but i have to write it in one go or my brain will explode and ill crash. so i have to write a long one.

    since i got ill i have vivid flash backs to non traumatic events. completely irrelevant boring memories, and i have these intense falshbacks. never a traumatic event memory.

    i also now have mild autism-like symptoms, dyslexia-like problems, ADD-like, sometimes i have an incredibly srong urge for no reason whatsoever to end it all that appears out of nowhere. adults are not supposed to get autism. feeling suicidal isnt supposed to begin instantaneously. the thing that stops the suicidal thoughts really well is salt and sugar. it works without fail. 2 pints of tea full of salt and sugar. nice cup of tea to cheers me up? its got nothing to do with cheering me up. its the salt and sugar and fluid. those three simple things have kept me alive.

    i dont think we will ever fully understand ME or a whole bunch of other diseases until we start to look at these diseases as a group with many overlaps and comorbidities.

    everywhere you look the same things keep popping up over and over

    for example, THP genes have been implicated in ME, PTSD, Autism, Depression, Schizophrenia, maybe Fibromyalgia cant remember

    5 HTT is another. implicated in ME, fibromyalgia, suicidal behavior, Alzheimers?, Autism, Depression, Sudden Infant Death Syndrome. the protein it encodes is involved in serotonin and sodium. do we have salt problems?

    indoleamine 2,3-dioxygenase is implicated in Fibromyalgia and PTSD. what did Ron Davis just say is elevated in ME? indoleamine-2,3-dioxygenase @Rose49

    look at the possible connection betwen indoleamine-2,3-dioxygenase and Vitamin D. @charles shepherd we often have low Vit D. maybe this is part of it.

    there are overlaps everywhere and i dont think these are all by pure chance

    i have the mixture of ME/NMH/EDS-HT/mast cell issues, and the only thing that has helped me is mastcell treatment. antihistamines, antileokotrines, dexamethasone, berberine (treat berberine with great caution), mast cell blockers (Dr Theo)

    all my syptoms improved at the same time. ME/NMH/EDSHT/flushing. also my ankylosing spondylitis pain in sacroilliac joints vanished overnight. @Jonathan Edwards

    my EDS symptoms - droopy eyelids, joints popping out, zebra lines, etc, and my sacroilliac pain rise and fall in tandem. my SI joints are fused but they are agony. antihistamines is better than Enbrel for my Anky Spon. it appears that mast cells are found in the synovium in anky spon. mast cells are the only cell that contain preformed TNFa ready for release. Enbrel blocks action of TNFa. ?? i dont know. maybe just a coincidence again, but i know how to put my AS in remission and it isnt Enbrel. perhaps i dont have AS? i am HLAB27 +ve. several of my family members have AS, fused necks, fused SI joints. these same family members have other things, like dyslexia, ADD, depression, POTS, flushing and itchy skin, *PEM*, constant headaches, tinnitus, loose joints, food intolerances. We all have the same strange group of diseases.

    the antihistamines etc also made my autism-like and ADD-like and dyslexia-like problems vanish as well. my permanent headache and tinnitus vanished as well. my blurry vision improved. my jaw stopped aching.

    a lot of this isnt new. most of it has been on P.R. in the past. Cort Johnson was talking about indoleamine 2,3-dioxygenase/tryptophan years ago with regards to Fibromyalgia.

    Rich Van K was talking about similar links between Autism and ME ten years ago.

    a lot of the mast cell stuff from Dr Theo is relevant as well

    recently i saw on here a thread about RCCX gene complex and Dr Meglathery @stripey14 that went down like a lead balloon. maybe she is on to something with the connection between diseases that seem really unusual. dont be so quick to dismiss. she has ME/etc. she herself and some of her patients have benefitted greatly from antihistamines, berberine etc. it might be coincidence, but some of her theory relates to CAH (congenital adrenal hyperplasia). two things with CAH are salt wasting and dexamethasone. salt keeps coming up in ME, and i benefitted from dexamethasone. IV saline helps me for a couple of hours. dexamethasone alone stops my abdominal pain, stops my bladder dysfunction, stops blurry vision, stops my *non-traumatic flashbacks* and stops my *dyslexia-like symptmos*. after dexamethasone i can spell and write perfectly

    then i see a gene connected to CAH is influenced by both dexamethasone and berberine. then i see that berberine stops rituximab killing b cells. one of the genes in the RCCX group has been implicated in EDS-HT and anky spon. maybe that explain my EDS and AS rising and falling together. its not hard to find connections concerning CAH, tryptophan, adrenocortical hormones, HPA axis, metabolism, oxidative stress, mitochondria. i guess it all depends how far down the rabbit hole you want to go, or if you like Kansas.

    i have been treated with rituximab, not responded yet, its been 7 months. this is why im not experimenting again at present with mast cell treatmemnt. i want to give the ritux alone a fair chance. berberine and ritux dont mix. pure pure speculation - supposing dexamethasone and ritux dont mix?

    however, after my infusions, after a two or three days, i felt so much nbetter. it was a shock to feel so good. havent felt so good for 10 years. i dont think this is coincidence. dont even try to tell me its placebo. if i responded to placebo i would habe been cured a thousand times over. with the ritux you get all the drugs to reduce reactions to infusion. what are these drugs? Dexamethasone and antihistamines. No surprise there then

    in two days i went from severe to mild. then back to severe again. this isnt normal.

    look at the calcium channels and Sonya M-G in Aussie. its not hard to find calcium channel problems in other diseases like autism, dementia, alzheimers, vasculitis, fibromyalgia. there is an anky spon related gene involved in calcium channels/immune regulation.

    this may raise the question that i dont have ME. thats possible. this is important baecause i was diagnosed by a well known ME doctor, and i fit the canadian and international criteria perfectly. if i dont have ME then there is a big problem with diagnosis right now.

    i think that if people start to look at all these diseases as a kind of spectrum, or at least pay serious attention to the overlaps, we might make a bit more progress

    maybe im unique. i dont know. all i can say is that for me personally dealing with mast cells has improved about 15 different diseases that i have, some of which are best described as "physical", some that are regarded as "psychiatric". if all of my 15 or so diseases all improve greatly at the same time it cant all be coincidence.

    people on other forums are saying similar things. EDS forums, mast cells, autism. have a look around. even bits and bobs on schizophrenia and anorexia forums that seems a bit too familiar. i know somebody with schizophrenia who responds greatly to antihistamines. you wont find that in many of the text books.

    soon i wil try out the mast cell treatments again because im ready to give up on rituximab. i'll let you all know if i respond or not this time around

    take care. be as well as you can be.
    PS Janet D, if you read this, please say thanks to Ron for the fantastic work he is doing
     
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