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Another Culprit - Sulfate Reducing Bacterias (SRB)/Oxygen

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Changexpert, Mar 25, 2015.

  1. Changexpert

    Changexpert Senior Member

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    Sulfate reducing bacterias are mostly anaerobic species, which consume sulfates and release hydrogen sulfide in exchange (H2S). The most notable SRBs are streptococcus, enterococcus, and prevotella. Excess hydrogen sulfide puts a lot of oxidative stress on the body, which damages mitochondria. Also, H2S gas is what makes fart and stool smell like rotten egg. The main problem with SRBs is that they result in a double whammy to our bodies:
    1. Depleted sulfate - sulfate is crucial for forming hair, nails, skin, detoxification, and mitochondrial activity
    2. Increased hydrogen sulfide - increased toxin, damaged mitochondria
    Upon further research, it was found that these bacterias not only reduce sulfate, but other chemicals in the body like fumarate, nitrate, nitrite, iron, inorganic sulfur compounds.
    According to Dr. Myhill, SRBs cause fermentation of the food in the gut, which I do not even want to think about. Also, people with high SRBs are usually low in Bacteroides, E coli, and Bifidobacteria.
    • The microbes which are thought to be the main cause of abnormal fermentation are lactobacilli (only a problem with high sugar diets), streptococcus and prevotella (bacteria) and candida (yeast). Conversely, in the fermenting gut there may be low levels of bacteroides, E coli and bifidobacteria.


    This makes lots of sense in my case because I've had rounds of antibiotics that wiped out bacteroides. I realize that bacteroides are opportunistic strains, meaning that too much of it would also cause series of problems. Balance is important when it comes to health, just like methylation.

    Dr. Rich pointed out that human bodies are not designed to process a lot of sulfur to begin with. I am wondering if using lots of sulfur containing supplements would help SRBs proliferate while reducing the other species, resulting in gut dysbiosis.

    After researching potential treatments for reducing the SRBs, I found that using hydrogen peroxide would work to kill off the excessive SRBs. However, hydrogen peroxide is a double edged sword because it will be also used with nitrite to form peroxynitrite. Also, superoxide dismutase will be used very rapidly, leaving the body more prone to oxidative stress.

    Another way to possibly kill SRBs are to increase oxygen intake through proper breathing technique, ozonated water, and using oxygen tank. Since most SRBs are anaerobic, they cannot respire in high oxygen environment.

    I was on the verge of buying hydrogen peroxide, but I do not want to take one step forward, then take two steps back. Since I have very bad posture and breathing habit, I am going to address those first and try oxygen workout device to increase my oxygen intake. If you have tried oxygen therapy in the past, please share your protocol and experience. Thanks in advance.

    This topic has been brought up several times on this forum by @Hip, @Radio, but the posts did not get much attention. Maybe gut research was still in the beginning stage (it still is currently) at the time original posts were created. The original posts can be found below.

    Sulfate Versus Sulfur Reducing Bacteria
    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/sulfate-versus-sulfur-reducing-bacteria.6473/

    Will a low sulfur diet reduce hydrogen sulfide production?
    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...iet-reduce-hydrogen-sulfide-production.13743/

    The Human Microbiome & Acquired Mitochondrial Disease

    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...robiome-acquired-mitochondrial-disease.28498/

    Of course, everything needs to be in balance, and H2S is anti-inflammatory at low level.

    Benefits Of Hydrogen Sulfide: It Protects Mitochondria, Counters Free Radicals, Increases Longevity
    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/benefits-of-hydrogen-sulfide-it-protects-mitochondria-counters-free-radicals-increases-longevity.34782/


    Source
    Gut Fermentation - http://www.drmyhill.co.uk/wiki/Fermentation_in_the_gut_and_CFS#Treatment_of_the_fermenting_gut
    SRB 1 - http://microbewiki.kenyon.edu/index.php/Sulfur-Reducing_Bacteria_and_Archaea
    SRB 2 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sulfate-reducing_bacteria
    Hydrogen Peroxide and Superoxide Dismutase Inhibition http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/4377099
    Hydrogen Peroxide and Superoxide Dismustase Modification - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24024135
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2015
  2. out2lunch

    out2lunch Senior Member

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    I see a huge problem in myself with sulfur-containing supplements, like SAM-e. Use of these supplements guarantees my urine smells like rotten eggs. Yasko testing identified homozygous SUOX along with a host of other SNPs, so dealing with methylation is tough. (SAM-e always tests in the basement, even when I supplement.) I'm thought about doing the KDM's H2S test for a long time, but feel daunted by sending my sample overseas. Are there any clinics in the US doing this test yet?

    I'm also currently doing battle with my Bacteroides-Prevotella bugs per my latest GI Effects results. Barnesiella, Odoribacter, and Prevotella are very high, 2x above the normal range cutoff. I'm also having trouble keeping my ferritin levels up. They plummet when I don't supplement, even though I'm way past the monthly menses blood loss and eat good sources of animal-based heme every day.

    Could my high levels of prevotella be chewing up my iron? Am I simply feeding these guys with iron and sulphur from my supplements, making the colonies bigger? Along with resistant starch in my diet? I have no idea. :confused:

    FWIW, I don't have low levels of e coli or bifidobacteria as others apparently do with high levels of SRBs. And my gut fungus is finally under control. But it looks like I might have replaced the fungal colonies with bacteroides. Peachy.

    I just can't seem to get the entire gut enchilada to stay in balance. Something is always out of whack. And it's sooooo frustrating!! :bang-head:
     
    MastBCrazy likes this.
  3. Crux

    Crux Senior Member

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    Hi @out2lunch ;

    This is way more complicated than I can understand, but I'll just throw out some basics.

    B6 or P5P may help with sulphur digestion/ metabolism.

    Zinc may help with reducing H2S.

    Gut bacterial overgrowth can be associated with low iron. ( not in everyone)

    Jeff Leach wrote an interesting blog about his diet, gut effects, and living with the Hadza, hunter gatherers.
    He switched his diet from a high protein, high fiber ; to a high protein not so high fiber. ( There was still some fiber in the museli he ate daily.)

    He tested his gut microbiome before and after the switch. In a short time, his gut microbe population switched from lower bacteroides and prevotella, to higher of each.

    He guessed that the lower fiber and increased grains had increased the bacteroides and prevotella.

    http://humanfoodproject.com/going-f...cquire-healthiest-gut-microbiome-world-heard/

    His diet is really high in leeks and onions, so those with sulfur sensitivities may want to chose other fibers.
    Also, if the diet is already high in fermentable fibers, and resistant starch, then insoluble fibers may help, I would guess.

    Fermentable fibers increase lactobacilli and bifidobacteria.
     
  4. out2lunch

    out2lunch Senior Member

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    Got those covered for other issues.

    But where is the starting point?

    Is iron feeding the SIBO which leads to deficiency? Or does SIBO worsen in the presence of low iron?

    More importantly… will supplementing with iron while trying to eradicate the SIBO only strengthen the SIBO? I'm dealing with that very issue right now. Even my well-respected functional medicine doc isn't sure.

    I read another article at Human Food Project drawing a similar conclusion.

    There was a study comparing rural kids in Africa to suburban kids in Italy. The African kids on mostly whole grain diets have insanely high levels of prevotella in their guts, while the kids in Italy on more diverse but low fiber diets have basically zero: http://humanfoodproject.com/from-me...t-time-to-trade-in-your-george-foreman-grill/.

    What I would be interested in knowing is what the serum iron levels were in these African kids, given how high their gut prevotella levels were.

    If prevotella growth is indeed stimulated by iron (apparently prevotella intermedia is: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1574-6968.2002.tb11103.x/full), then taking iron supplements, especially heme-based iron like ProFerrin, might be a very bad idea for SIBO sufferers with demonstrated elevations of bacteroides.

    I switched from an iron chelate supplement to ProFerrin last year because of the supposed increased absorption with heme-based iron. The supplement darkened my stool so I know it was dissolving. But my ferritin level tanked! It was as if I stopped supplementing iron altogether!

    Well, it would appear I've done this to myself. Switching out fruit in my diet for whole grains in order to reduce sugar and better control my fungal problems has increased prevotella and other bacteroides. And switching to a heme-based iron probably tossed more fuel on the prevotella fire.
     
  5. Crux

    Crux Senior Member

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    @out2lunch ;

    I don't have any personal experience with low iron, so I'm sure you know much more about it, but here's a couple ideas anyway.

    Low stomach acid can create an environment for anemia and SIBO.

    I've read some anecdotes of people with iron anemia having success with chlorophyll, greens, beet root, etc.
    Greens and beet root also have a good ratio of insoluble fiber to soluble.
     
    MastBCrazy likes this.
  6. Valentijn

    Valentijn Senior Member

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    The SUOX SNP which Yasko tests for doesn't do anything. It's in the protein coding section (exon) of the gene, and at a location where either allele results in exactly the same amino acid being created. I think she latched onto it because there was research showing that one of the other two SNPs on the same codon can result in a pathogenic missense mutation for that amino acid.
     
  7. out2lunch

    out2lunch Senior Member

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    I did not know that. So sulfur sensitivity would have to be determined by other means. Again, the quantity of misinformation out there is enough to make your head explode.

    For me, the problem is simple to identify but difficult to correct. Testing has demonstrated time and again that I continue to have methylation problems even when I supplement the stuff that's low. Reduced glutathione is always under the normal range, SAMe is also under the normal range. And I don't convert folic acid. Stuff we're all familiar with.

    But supplementing glutathione and SAMe is problematic. Small amounts are all I can handle. SAMe makes my urine smell like rotten eggs, big time, even just 200mg tablets once daily. And taking more than 150mg of reduced glutathione each day drags my energy levels even lower.

    Many folks feel better when they start to correct their methylation problems. Not me. I can move the needle towards normal numbers on my B12 or folate with hydroxy and folate supplementation with no ill effects. But not when I start messing with sulphur based supplements or glutathione directly. There's something going on at the intermediate level in the methylation cycle that doesn't like these shortcuts.

    Am I making sense here? Anyone else have this problem?
     
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  8. South

    South Senior Member

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    I wonder if yet another way is to take one of the "oxygenated" supplements on the market. The gut is where we'd want the oxygen, and I fear that simply inhaling oxygen won't deliver it to the gut. But of course, there is the risk of killing good bacteria that happen to be anaerobic.

    One of the oxygen-delivering (supposedly) supplements I'm referring to is called "Mag 07", but it has a laxative action, so only good for constipation problems. Other oxygen delivering supplements seem to be here, on Iherb, for example: (some are not laxative type) http://www.iherb.com/Oxygen-Supplements

    Plain lactoferrin, without iron added in the pill, might be useful. It shuttles iron from your food into your blood, thereby preventing bacteria lower down in your gut from getting the iron.
     

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