Andrew Wakefield links autism to CFS

[eastcoast12]

I have to ad something else about the vaccine stuff. The easy out for the anti-vax people is big pharma. Sure vaxxes make s shitload of money for the companies who develop them.

Look at Gillette. Hey buy a cheap razor but the replacement blades will cost you a ton of money. Great business model. If the vax developers where only focused on profits why the hell would they spend 100's of millions to billions developing the vaxxes. It would be a lot more cost effective and s lot more profitable to let the people get sick and just treat the symptoms. Use a business model like Gillette. They'd make a lot more money.

I dont think people realize how horrible these preventable diseases are because they've been so far removed from our collective psyche. Travel to third world countries where there aren't vax schedules or decent med care. I mean people are already complaining about the development of an Ebola vax. It's pretty easy to bitch about it from the comfort of a couch sitting on an iPad. Try to explain to people in west Africa that they have something to prevent Ebola but because of bad science people believe vaccines are bad so they won't be getting it.

 

[eastcoast12]

Do any of you have any personal experience with autism. If you did, you wouldn't be posting what is absolute unproven crap.

Vaccines do not contribute to autism -- end of. The saddest thing of all, is that Wakefield caused a whole bunch of research related to "do vaccines cause autism". Who paid. Children -- all the money that should have been spent on their support was spent on research related to vaccines. Wakefield's study has never been replicated. And it never will.

I am a parent of a child who is on the 'spectrum' and vaccines had sweet f-all to do with it.

Google this -- the DSM made a huge mistake which resulted in children being diagnosed when they shouldn't have been-- it caused a fake spike in new cases -- why a typo -- putting 'or' instead of 'and'.

Look at the MRI's of children with autism compared with controls. How would a vaccine cause a child's brain to significantly change in size after a vaccination. Vaccinations as a cause doesn't even make sense. Do some research and stop parroting the bullshit put out by anti-vaxxers that know absolutely zero about autism. Talk to people with autism - -they don't like to be treated as subnormal physically ill people. Most like to be considered as not neurotypical.

Andrew Wakefield made up stuff, faked data, got paid for faking data. But still, people still argue he was on the up and up. He got what he deserved. He deserved to be struck of as a doctor. He kind of reminds of Judy Mikovits -- making unproven comments about associations, producing an un-replicable study and using the patient population to foot the bills for legal issues. It's disgusting.

I look at my daughter. She has been like the way she was from birth. She had all her immunizations -- no side-effects what-so-ever. As a mother do I try to cure my child of a developmental disability by shoving bleach up her back-passage, chelating her, denying her food she loves - basically abusing her. No, it's not an 'illness'. She is a human being who thinks differently -- for whatever reason. I embrace her differences and accept she thinks differently. She is not ill. Vaccines did not cause her illness. The stupidity of anti-Vaxers is just that, stupidity. Anybody saying vaccines cause autism are woefully ignorant of the disorder.

And even though Wakefield was totally discredited - proven that he fudged data -- still people still support him? Why because they are ignorant and know nothing about autism. It's so sad and demoralizing for me as a parent to read the shit that supports vaccines cause autism because there is no proof.

Bottom line -- before you start pontificating about what you think you know about autism -- actually research it - pay attention to parents and avoid the conspiracy crap posted by autism one. Look at the science.

Agree 100%. Blaming autism on vaxxes is completely equivalent to blaming cfs on psychological disorders. Totally trivializes the disease and like Kina said it channels money away from what it should be used for to research the real causes of autism. Autism has been around a lot longer than vaccines.

 

[Snow Leopard]

Structural issues?

The structural issues revolve around access to good healthcare. Those people who do not have a good relationship with a doctor for example are less likely to be fully vaccinated. It is about access to good health care that we can trust. The risk factors are being poor, (living in a poor country), being of a disadvantaged racial minority, bad experiences with the medical system, household violence etc.
Australia does not have a vaccine compensation scheme for severe adverse reactions like most other Western countries, so some people here opt out simply for that reason.

If you want to learn about the Australian context, Professor Julie Leask has lots of interesting things to say about vaccination rates and vaccine denial (and some mythbusting).
https://julieleask.wordpress.com/

 

[eastcoast12]

The structural issues revolve around access to good healthcare. Those people who do not have a good relationship with a doctor for example are less likely to be fully vaccinated. It is about access to good health care that we can trust. The risk factors are being poor, (living in a poor country), being of a disadvantaged racial minority, bad experiences with the medical system, household violence etc.
Australia does not have a vaccine compensation scheme for severe adverse reactions like most other Western countries, so some people here opt out simply for that reason.
/

Thanks for clearing it up. And I agree , there are huge discrepancies between rich health care and poor healthcare

 

[Snow Leopard]

Agree 100%. Blaming autism on vaxxes is completely equivalent to blaming cfs on psychological disorders. Totally trivializes the disease and like Kina said it channels money away from what it should be used for to research the real causes of autism. Autism has been around a lot longer than vaccines.

I don't think they are claiming that it is THE cause, but rather A cause. The problem is that there lacks evidence as to mechanism.

The mechanism for adjuvants and vaccines causing autoimmune diseases is well established as they are used in standard protocols to induce autoimmune disease in animal models (the goal is not to study the vaccine or adjuvant, but a sure-fire way to have some animals with autoimmune disease by which to study). Very few safety studies have the statistical power to capture rare events, eg 1/25000, but those that do have shown a small link with some autoimmune diseases, eg whole population studies conducted in Scandinavian countries.

There also been large self-controlled studies investigating autism rates after the MMR vaccines but self-control doesn't really make sense for developmental disorders that emerge at specific ages.

But Autism does not appear to be autoimmune and for that matter, if it was, then vaccines would induce autism at any age and not just in young children. The second red flag is that autism is far more common in males, whereas autoimmune diseases are predominantly more common in females. Hence in terms of epidemiological evidence, it seems unlikely that vaccines can trigger it.

 

[lookinglass]

The statement amounts to "A was acquitted, therefore B must be innocent."

The point that was made during this High Court Judgement on Appeal was that the British Medical Council that found both men guilty of the accusations made by Brian Deer, was invalid as theIr Council was not A legitimate court of law and was entirely "inadequate for purpose" and that they had made fundamental errors of legal judgement. This judgement obviously covered and vindicated both men.

 

[MeSci]

But Autism does not appear to be autoimmune and for that matter, if it was, then vaccines would induce autism at any age and not just in young children. The second red flag is that autism is far more common in males, whereas autoimmune diseases are predominantly more common in females. Hence in terms of epidemiological evidence, it seems unlikely that vaccines can trigger it.

There are particular sensitivities that children have that adults don't - their brains are still developing, for example. It is understood in the medical world that medications often affect children differently from how they affect adults, so the dosages can't just be calculated by body weight, for example.

Re male vs female, I don't know whether this could account for the huge differential, but it is suspected that autism is widely underdiagnosed in females, for two main reasons:

• The 'self-fulfilling prophecy' that it is uncommon in females (same with heart disease)
• Females are better able to adapt to 'neurotypical' ways and essentially hide the condition

 

[lookinglass]

Do any of you have any personal experience with autism. If you did, you wouldn't be posting what is absolute unproven crap.

Vaccines do not contribute to autism -- end of. The saddest thing of all, is that Wakefield caused a whole bunch of research related to "do vaccines cause autism". Who paid. Children -- all the money that should have been spent on their support was spent on research related to vaccines. Wakefield's study has never been replicated. And it never will.

I am a parent of a child who is on the 'spectrum' and vaccines had sweet f-all to do with it.

Google this -- the DSM made a huge mistake which resulted in children being diagnosed when they shouldn't have been-- it caused a fake spike in new cases -- why a typo -- putting 'or' instead of 'and'.

Look at the MRI's of children with autism compared with controls. How would a vaccine cause a child's brain to significantly change in size after a vaccination. Vaccinations as a cause doesn't even make sense. Do some research and stop parroting the bullshit put out by anti-vaxxers that know absolutely zero about autism. Talk to people with autism - -they don't like to be treated as subnormal physically ill people. Most like to be considered as not neurotypical.

Andrew Wakefield made up stuff, faked data, got paid for faking data. But still, people still argue he was on the up and up. He got what he deserved. He deserved to be struck of as a doctor. He kind of reminds of Judy Mikovits -- making unproven comments about associations, producing an un-replicable study and using the patient population to foot the bills for legal issues. It's disgusting.

I look at my daughter. She has been like the way she was from birth. She had all her immunizations -- no side-effects what-so-ever. As a mother do I try to cure my child of a developmental disability by shoving bleach up her back-passage, chelating her, denying her food she loves - basically abusing her. No, it's not an 'illness'. She is a human being who thinks differently -- for whatever reason. I embrace her differences and accept she thinks differently. She is not ill. Vaccines did not cause her illness. The stupidity of anti-Vaxers is just that, stupidity. Anybody saying vaccines cause autism are woefully ignorant of the disorder.

And even though Wakefield was totally discredited - proven that he fudged data -- still people still support him? Why because they are ignorant and know nothing about autism. It's so sad and demoralizing for me as a parent to read the shit that supports vaccines cause autism because there is no proof.

Bottom line -- before you start pontificating about what you think you know about autism -- actually research it - pay attention to parents and avoid the conspiracy crap posted by autism one. Look at the science.

Where do you have undeniable proof that
a. Wakefield 'made up stuff'
b He 'faked data'
c. he got 'paid for faking data'

I would like to see the evidence for these charges please. And please do not quote from Brian Deer. He has been discredited by the High Court of Appeal for Prof walker Smith as well as in the court of Appeal in the US when he was called as a witness before the trial brought by Wakefield, which never took place because of a legal technicality.

 

[Violeta]

His info is no longer considered wrong. And the people that use his info do not think the way they think because of his info, they use his info to provide statistics.

 

[eastcoast12]

I don't think they are claiming that it is THE cause, but rather A cause. The problem is that there lacks evidence as to mechanism.

The mechanism for adjuvants and vaccines causing autoimmune diseases is well established as they are used in standard protocols to induce autoimmune disease in animal models (the goal is not to study the vaccine or adjuvant, but a sure-fire way to have some animals with autoimmune disease by which to study). Very few safety studies have the statistical power to capture rare events, eg 1/25000, but those that do have shown a small link with some autoimmune diseases, eg whole population studies conducted in Scandinavian countries.

I have never heard about that. Sounds interesting. I would like to look into this a little more. Are there any specific studies that you recommend. I do know that some adjuvants have Been discontinued because of health concerns but I have never heard about the relationship between them and autoimmune disorders

 

[Sidereal]

But Autism does not appear to be autoimmune

Autism may have nothing to do with classic female preponderance autoimmunity but it could be an autoinflammatory condition of some sort along the lines of type I diabetes.

and for that matter, if it was, then vaccines would induce autism at any age and not just in young children.

I see no reason why that would be the case. Perhaps you can only develop autism during a particular vulnerable time period of brain development. In some diseases, the timing of the immune insult plays a crucial role in whether / what kind of disease develops. Exposure to Epstein Barr virus can cause vastly different reactions in the body depending on whether you get infected as a young child vs. adolescent/young adult. Then we have neuropsychiatric conditions like schizophrenia linked to various immune challenges during the mother's pregnancy. In women infected with the flu during pregnancy, second trimester in particular, offspring has an increased likelihood of developing schizophrenia many years down the line. Maternal rubella infection in early pregnancy leads to a big increase in risk of schizophrenia in the child later on. Timing matters.

 

[lookinglass]

His info is no longer considered wrong. And the people that use his info do not think the way they think because of his info, they use his info to provide statistics.

And I think we should all remember that autism , like MECFS is a spectrum. Of course not ALL autism is caused by vaccines. Nobody is saying this. Those that are called anti vaxers are saying simply that they do not trust the 'science' that has created the vaccine MMR. They have a perfect right to feel this way. One size does not fit all. In some children the auto immune system is profoundly affected in a harmful way by this vaccine. That is all that Wakefield ever said. That there was a link. For SOME children, not all. I cannot emphasise this point enough.

 

[chipmunk1]

And I think we should all remember that autism , like MECFS is a spectrum.

Autism is a spectrum. On the one end you have mild high functioning cases like Aspergers who might just think a bit differently without much obvious "pathology". This is often cited as an example of neurodiversity.. On the other end you have cases of severe autism (search on Youtube for severe Autism for examples) which are severely impaired or disabled with high comorbidity rates of other neurological illness. At least 50% suffer from epilepsy or schizophrenia for example.

 

[Undisclosed]

Where do you have undeniable proof that
a. Wakefield 'made up stuff'
b He 'faked data'
c. he got 'paid for faking data'

I would like to see the evidence for these charges please. And please do not quote from Brian Deer. He has been discredited by the High Court of Appeal for Prof walker Smith as well as in the court of Appeal in the US when he was called as a witness before the trial brought by Wakefield, which never took place because of a legal technicality.

The problem here is that you are parroting antivax propaganda which doesn't even come close to any kind of reality.

Have you ever bothered to look at the GMC transcripts? http://sheldon101blog.blogspot.co.uk/p/grouped-wakefield-transcripts.html

Show me where, Deer provided any 'expert' testimony to be discredited by the High Court re: the decision the GMC made. There certainly were tons of witnesses related to the Wakefield GMC case that were very relevant == people who actually worked with Wakefield and these people did not say anything that would make it seem that Deer was lying. So is every single one of these witnesse a liar?, Brian Deer made it all up?

Walker was initially struck off and appealed to the High Court, he won. It had nothing to do with Brian Deer whatsoever. The GMC investigated Wakefield, Murch, and Walker. They made their decision. Walker appealed and won to have his medical licence reinstated. Wakefield didn't bother to appeal to the High Court. Maybe, he was happy enough in his new position in Texas making 280,000 dollars a year. He was fired from that too -- was Brian Deer at fault for that too? Murch wasn't found guilty of any kind of professional misconduct at all.

The US case didn't go forward because of a legal technicality? Would that be the legal technicality that is related to jurisdiction. Texas courts basically only have jurisdiction over Texans and people who do business or harm in Texas. Neither Brian Deer nor the BMJ (also being sued) are Texans. The articles they published were published in England which as far as I know is not in or near Texas. The case was dismissed because the Texas court didn’t have the power to hear a lawsuit against foreigners based on things done in a foreign country

Wakefield tried to sue Deer in the UK for defamation but lost -- he withdrew after Deer obtained and published records showing that Wakefield had been paid half a million dollars “by lawyers trying to prove that the vaccine was unsafe,” starting long before he published the Lancet paper. So he tried again in the US.

And I think we should all remember that autism , like MECFS is a spectrum. Of course not ALL autism is caused by vaccines. Nobody is saying this. Those that are called anti vaxers are saying simply that they do not trust the 'science' that has created the vaccine MMR. They have a perfect right to feel this way. One size does not fit all. In some children the auto immune system is profoundly affected in a harmful way by this vaccine. That is all that Wakefield ever said. That there was a link. For SOME children, not all. I cannot emphasise this point enough.

The antivaxxers have absolutely no basis or scientific proof to make any statements about any kind of correlation or causation. The are not simply saying they 'don't trust the science'. They say that vaccines CAUSE autism even though every reason they have come up with thimerisol etc has been debunked. I have a 'perfect right' to believe in the tooth fairy but it doesn't mean the tooth fairly exists. Wakefield had no business even discussing a link from research that involved 12 children (that really should have been a preliminary study), where he fudged the data about the children (proven), caused contamination in his lab, refused to replicate the study when given a chance, and caused much of the money earmarked for other types of research and for services for autistic children being wasted on trying to replicate his study, trying to show some kind of link.

You should seriously go and take the time to read up on autism, learn the history, and then go read some really good research related to autism rather than cherry picking nauseatingly stupid information from sites like autism one.

 

[Violeta]

I guess it comes down to who do you trust.

https://childhealthsafety.wordpress.com/

And have you done anything to help reverse autism or damage done by vaccines.

If you don't believe vaccines have done any damage you have no responsibility (or joy of reversing) for reversing or preventing damage to more children.

If you do believe vaccinations have caused damage to children, what can you do to help reverse it?

A child of a friend lost speech after a vaccination. We gave the mother some natural remedies to detox metals, pathogens, and restore nerve function. The child regained speech.

It doesn't stop there, unfortunately, though, as governments are trying to force vaccinations on EVERYONE! We can't let that happen. That's why Wakefield's stance is so important to both sides.

Fluad vaccine this year contains an adjuvant that has caused serious illness. Avoid at all costs, and try to warn those you care about.

 

[Violeta]

I wonder who paid Brian Deer?

 

[leela]

I am really tired of the red herring phrase "Anti-Vaxxers" being used to describe people who chose not to have a vaccine for themselves or their loved ones
through informed choice. Choosing not to vaccinate oneself or loved one does not automatically make one anti-vaccine. It makes one Pro-Choice.

I am against being required by some anonymous bureaucracy to inject known neurotoxins and other toxic materials into my blood stream.
I am against being told that a distant "authority" knows my body and its serious medical challenges better than I do.
I am for retaining the sovereignty we all hold over the territory of our our own person.
I am against the entirely unnatural and illogical practice of subjecting a growing (or any) immune system to multiple pathogens all at once, or in unnaturally close sequence, or pathogens a western newborn body would surely never encounter at that stage, such as Hep B.
I am against forcing ever-younger women to receive a vaccination that presumes their sexual activity, that has shown known harms, and then holding childrens' education
hostage to these practices and assumptions
I am against the entirely unscientific position that one thing works for all bodies. One glance at our individual SNPs shows this immediately to be untrue.

I am wondering, given the strength of conviction that these vaccines are entirely effective, why those who have chosen to vaccinate themselves are so fearful of those of us who chose not to.

 

[lookinglass]

The problem here is that you are parroting antivax propaganda which doesn't even come close to any kind of reality.

Have you ever bothered to look at the GMC transcripts? http://sheldon101blog.blogspot.co.uk/p/grouped-wakefield-transcripts.html

Show me where, Deer provided any 'expert' testimony to be discredited by the High Court re: the decision the GMC made. There certainly were tons of witnesses related to the Wakefield GMC case that were very relevant == people who actually worked with Wakefield and these people did not say anything that would make it seem that Deer was lying. So is every single one of these witnesse a liar?, Brian Deer made it all up?

Walker was initially struck off and appealed to the High Court, he won. It had nothing to do with Brian Deer whatsoever. The GMC investigated Wakefield, Murch, and Walker. They made their decision. Walker appealed and won to have his medical licence reinstated. Wakefield didn't bother to appeal to the High Court. Maybe, he was happy enough in his new position in Texas making 280,000 dollars a year. He was fired from that too -- was Brian Deer at fault for that too? Murch wasn't found guilty of any kind of professional misconduct at all.

The US case didn't go forward because of a legal technicality? Would that be the legal technicality that is related to jurisdiction. Texas courts basically only have jurisdiction over Texans and people who do business or harm in Texas. Neither Brian Deer nor the BMJ (also being sued) are Texans. The articles they published were published in England which as far as I know is not in or near Texas. The case was dismissed because the Texas court didn’t have the power to hear a lawsuit against foreigners based on things done in a foreign country

Wakefield tried to sue Deer in the UK for defamation but lost -- he withdrew after Deer obtained and published records showing that Wakefield had been paid half a million dollars “by lawyers trying to prove that the vaccine was unsafe,” starting long before he published the Lancet paper. So he tried again in the US.



The antivaxxers have absolutely no basis or scientific proof to make any statements about any kind of correlation or causation. The are not simply saying they 'don't trust the science'. They say that vaccines CAUSE autism even though every reason they have come up with thimerisol etc has been debunked. I have a 'perfect right' to believe in the tooth fairy but it doesn't mean the tooth fairly exists. Wakefield had no business even discussing a link from research that involved 12 children (that really should have been a preliminary study), where he fudged the data about the children (proven), caused contamination in his lab, refused to replicate the study when given a chance, and caused much of the money earmarked for other types of research and for services for autistic children being wasted on trying to replicate his study, trying to show some kind of link.

You should seriously go and take the time to read up on autism, learn the history, and then go read some really good research related to autism rather than cherry picking nauseatingly stupid information from sites like autism one.

Why you have adopted such an attitude may be the result of you enduring the pain of having a child with autism, I am allowing for that.
Firstly I admit to a non science background, as you can obviously see I am an artist by profession. But I sincerely hope I am able to tell a quack and a fraudster from a genuinely deeply committed doctor such as Wakefield. And for your information I am from the UK and familiar with all of the findings of the GMC complaints committee. The GMC and its 'unfit for purpose' quasi court trial was rightly condemned by Justice Mitting in the subsequent High Court of Appeal. The findings of that GMC hearing are therefore quite irrelevent.
I notice that you still have not provided me with any evidence for the false charges you mentioned in your post brought against Wakefield by Brian Deer. And yes I am aware of the legal reasons for the US court not to allow Wakefield to continue with his case against defamation by Deer and the editor of the Lancet Journal. I understand that Wakefield was unsuccessful in his attempt put forward with much confidence by his Texan counsel. And it is on record as you know why Wakefield did not pursue his case against Deer in the UK. The Judge would not allow the case to be heard whilst the GMC were about to bring their complaints committee to investigate all three doctors. Wakefield did not 'withdraw' because of anything that Deer had 'manufactured' in print, neither was he ever paid 'half a million dollars'. Any legal fees that were paid were paid into the coffers of the Royal Free Hospital as was normal procedure. You obviously have not followed the case as closely as perhaps you ought to have done. He had to withdraw because the Judge ordered his counsel to do so, he simply ran out of time and money. He is not and never was a wealthy man. But yes, it does depend very much upon whom you personally wish and choose to believe. You have made your choice and your own wishes very clear on this subject in many other threads whenever Wakefield's name crops up.
Andrew Wakefield is a threat to many people in his own profession, (let alone the pharmaceutical industry), to all those who choose not to put their heads above the parapet and risk their own careers and reputation.

 

[leela]

There is a safe way and a reckless way to vaccinate.
We are careering further and further into recklessness, for nothing more than profit.
Rather than creating and engaging in false polemics, why are we not, as a global culture, doing everything we can
to ensure the safest, most beneficial practice for all?

 

[cmt12]

I don't think they are claiming that it is THE cause, but rather A cause.

There is so much confusion about causation. We've all heard the phrase 'the straw that broke the camel's back' right? Technically, you can say that the last straw caused the camel's back to break, but that's not really accurate or productive to go around believing one piece of straw can break a camel's back. This is why I focus on the root cause.

Saying there are multiple causes for ME/CFS or autism is only focusing on the last straw and not being aware of a deeper rooted cause. So, when this guy says that autism is caused by the environment or vaccines, and when people say that ME/CFS is caused by a certain virus, or Lyme, etc, my response is "Alright, you can technically say that but it's not going to get you anywhere."

I understand this is emotional and the desire to find a fix is very strong but let's keep this in mind.